Aisu looks a lot like Kishin (my Kishu) playing int hat video. Well, Kishin may be a bit more laid back, but still, he plays rough. Aisu might be a bit of a bully, based on that video, but he doesn't look anything like the first video.
I only own one Kishu (Kishin). I've met Gen's, and Shig's, and a few others in Japan, as well as Nami... but I have not lived with any of them. So I am not totally comfortable making a breed-specific statement. However, with regards to Kishin, he has a LOT of "civility" - he gets mad when he feels he's been wronged by a dog. You can see it in his face and body language, it's like he *clicks* into "Angry Kishin" and doesn't back down at all. It can be a lot to deal with.
So, if Kishin is like any of the other Kishu Ken out there, I can imagine that sometimes this rough play "tips" into a fight and Aisu goes "all-in"... I know that happens every now and then with Kishin - especially when he plays with Ahi.
Kishin isn't insecure at all, but maybe Aisu is, and I could see that civility and insecurity mixing to be a pretty nasty combo at times!
I second the comment, "I do think Aisu IS certainly playing in the second video, but I think Bosun is not reciprocating equally".
Bear with me and the length of this.....
The video is around two minutes and the terrier gets slammed down 9 times and thrashed without reciprocal play. Self handicapping by the Kishu does not occur until physical objects hinder his tackling at the very end of the clip. Combined, to me, it indicates the intensity is too much. A little past half way there is also a sniff of the ground by the terrier in an attempt to get activity to calm down.
It really is too bad when the terrier is looking toward the humans or the house the people just run off. At some point the terrier moves in toward objects cars and bushes for cover to stop the onslaught and to close the open spaces while snapping and batting the Kishu off. Wedged into a corner with little room, only then does the Kishu somewhat handicap a bit at the very end. Certainly one tolerant terrier.
With that said, no matter how tolerant an animal there is a breaking point and that's where it can turn over time, possibly ruining a good friendship. It is so important not to have one animal in a home or friends pushed to the limit of its tolerance and be at the bottom of play, sacrificing fun.
Again intervention and breaking up of the intensity is so important so dogs learn what is appropriate. The younger the age this is started the better. The Kishu will need to have some management with his over the top intensity to keep his behavior in check.
It appears, the Kishu may have what I would call (for lack of better word) "displaced drive", practicing boar skills on other dogs, i.e. extreme neck and hind leg jabs and thrashes.
In some capacity, possibly that needs to be turned to a boar so that he packs better with other dogs. Don't know if it is too late for that or not..... learning the difference between the two species and using his mouth better perhaps.
Not to skirt around reality, my concern is the fact the Kishu could give a hoot about the wishes of the other animal and has already used his mouth to get his point across on multiple species. Certainly I would think twice about introducing a smaller dog or puppy to him with the over the top prey drive since the off switch is on delay or possibly his over arousal is on short circuit.
Thank you for being so honest about his situation and providing a glimpse I truly hope care will be taken to find the right home for him.
I agree with Snf's post which was really observant and thoughtful. I've seen this kind of play, too, and when I see that one dog is getting overwhelmed, I usually intervene. I also thought the terrier retreated to the humans several times, and that did look like the dog was looking for a way to get away. Perhaps I'm overly cautious, but I've seen play turn bad too quickly, and so that's what I usually do.
I would think he would need to be paired with a particularly tolerant dog--and certainly a larger one.
First, Aisu is a beautiful dog! I have a dog that tries to "play" as your Kishu does. I intervene, separate, distract, correct this behavior. I have seen it turn ugly quickly so it is best to prevent it all together. The Wheaten is obviously seeking refuge with the humans and finding no assistance there so he has no choice but to allow the Kishu to "push" him around. One day it may turn quickly and become a very dangerous fight. The Wheaten seems defensive throughout the video, never relaxing and does not seem to enjoy the playdate at all. That Wheaten is one tolerant and patient dog. If I were his owner I would have put a stop to this. If I were Aisu's owner, I would have put a stop to this.
I hope he finds a great home! I wish you the best of luck and I am so sorry you are having to part with your dog. That must have been an extremely difficult decision and I hope it all works out! Please keep us updated
Met Aisu yesterday! He was very eager and played very well with Russell. Both of them ran around and made sure they peed on ALL of the things. They also managed to find some mud puddle, so of course they had to wear it. I think he'll get along with London just fine. Meeting again next week - maybe we'll see how he does with my cats.
I'm glad that the first intro went well. With your doggie daycare background and expansive dog-reading skills, there's no doubt in my mind that you'll figure out if he'll be a good fit for your home or not.
I agree cats might be an issue, but who knows maybe with time you can work with Aisu to be fine with them when your around.. I'd probably not allow them to interact when you leave in case something happens.
Saya does well with cats, but if they run she chases..
Tomoe is from the earlier litter as Aisu's, she was born in July of 2009. I do not believe they are siblings.
Tomoe is definitely dog-reactive, but the way she behaves with other dogs is actually very complex. She will snarl and make a display with some dogs when she meets them, but she will almost always take a playful posture immediately after that. It is as if she wants to let them know she will mess them up if they get out of line, but as long as they are clear on that, they can play This is not accepted on-leash behavior though so I try to NOT meet other dogs on-leash like that.
Tomoe generally prefers being chased, so she doesn't usually stay on a dog that is submitting or running away from her.
IMO, I'd say Tomoe is the kind of dog that flushes or distracts prey while Aisu clearly wants to be the dog to take the prey down. I don't know what to tell you about whether this is something that you can change or mitigate. I have given up banging my head against walls trying to get my dog to be a perfect obedience animal. She is extremely good at some things and extremely bad - by modern suburban pet standards - at others. I think you do the best you can with training and socialization but these dogs just take a lot of patience because "f*** you, I am a Kishu."
update. I just want to say thanks to all who contributed to this thread. i got so much great advice here. It's been 9 months or so since I was at my wits end with Aisu.
Since this thread, I have implemented a lot of changes. One of the biggest changes is just my understanding of the dog that I have. shishiinu explained something in simple terms. He said he has hunting dogs and that's what they are. Once I came to terms with this more wholeheartedly, I gave up on situations that I think I was still hanging on to.
Aisu doesn't go to my kids sport events and hang out on the sidelines. I used to do this and it's not the place for him. He comes with us and hangs in the car, and he likes that. I don't take him to a place where there are boud to be a bunch of other dogs and let him run free. That's just asking for trouble.
But with his play with friends, I have done a lot to reel him in. A couple of private messages on this forum gave me a lot of very constructive advice. I wore Aisu out a little before his friend came over to play and that helped. I had to be very vigilant at first to stop Aisu from being too aggressive with the other dog. -I never realized that the other dog had had enough until you guys pointed it out from the videos. Now it seems so obvious. But as I backed Aisu down manually, Bosun stepped up his control over the play and now they play as equals. I still have to call Aisu off sometimes, but Bosun tells him what's up most of the time.
And all of this has calmed Aisu down a little more for other situations. He's a lot better with meeting other dogs now. There are still a lot that he would just as soon bite as sniff, but if I am there, I can control the situation and keep him calm. If a dog runs up to Aisu when he is on a leash, I can insert myself between Aisu and the other dog, send the other dog away and Aisu is pretty much fine with it (doesn't even get his fur up). If this happened a year ago, Aisu would have gone right throuh me and ripped the other dog up. And if my kids are walking Aisu (still) and another dog runs up, they don't have the control to keep Aisu calm. And he will bit the other dog.
But that partly goes back to knowing the situation. Aisu isn't the kind of dog that my young kids can walk on their own, if they might encounter a strange dog. At least for now. If he mellows more or if my kids get better at being the boss, it might change.
The other ongoing issue is that he does sometimes snap at strange kids. Some kids are just oblivous and put their face up to a dog. For those kids, we try to keep Aisu in a bedroom while they are visiting. It's always a challenge when they meet and if we get busy or lose track of a situation, a kid might come over, jump out of their car and pop...Aisu is aggresively investigating what/who is in our yard. That is something we try to minimize but gets away from us sometimes.
And if any time, I just don't like the way Aisu is reacting to someone, I put him on his bed or in a bedroom.
I knew from the start that he isn't a black lab or a golden retreiver. That's exactly why I wanted this breed. But there were some parts of my subconscious that thought I was going to get to the walking off leash at dog parks, etc. Letting go of that fully was an important step in coming to better terms with Aisu.
But thank you all very much for helping me through a really tough time. This is a great resource that helped me keep a dog that I was ready to give up on.
That's great news. I'm glad that things are working out for Aisu and you, that's very good to read - and nice to know he has an owner who is openminded and willing to understand him. Too many dog owners try to push their ideals onto their dogs and end up failing.
Glad to hear of the improvement, and I'll echo Brad--I'm happy to see someone who is able to come to an understanding of the dog they have, and find a way to live with that. Good for you both!
It warms my heart to see this. I read through the entire thread just now and it made me smile to see that you kept him and are willing to keep working with him. My Shiba is difficult and her first two owners gave her away instead of working with her. It takes time, but once you figure out what works best for you and your dog, a bond is created and it is amazing. It's dog owners like you that inspire hope for others dealing with similar situations.
Awesome news! Glad you came to terms with Aisu and got a good plan going. Not all dogs can be "that" dog that can go to every outdoor function and be like Lassy.
By the way there maybe another Kishu headed for the east coast soon. NY to be exact.
I'm also really glad for you guys! To echo what so many others said, it's great to see people come to terms with the dog they have and try to work it out with each other.
Comments
I only own one Kishu (Kishin). I've met Gen's, and Shig's, and a few others in Japan, as well as Nami... but I have not lived with any of them. So I am not totally comfortable making a breed-specific statement. However, with regards to Kishin, he has a LOT of "civility" - he gets mad when he feels he's been wronged by a dog. You can see it in his face and body language, it's like he *clicks* into "Angry Kishin" and doesn't back down at all. It can be a lot to deal with.
So, if Kishin is like any of the other Kishu Ken out there, I can imagine that sometimes this rough play "tips" into a fight and Aisu goes "all-in"... I know that happens every now and then with Kishin - especially when he plays with Ahi.
Kishin isn't insecure at all, but maybe Aisu is, and I could see that civility and insecurity mixing to be a pretty nasty combo at times!
----
Bear with me and the length of this.....
The video is around two minutes and the terrier gets slammed down 9 times and thrashed without reciprocal play. Self handicapping by the Kishu does not occur until physical objects hinder his tackling at the very end of the clip. Combined, to me, it indicates the intensity is too much. A little past half way there is also a sniff of the ground by the terrier in an attempt to get activity to calm down.
It really is too bad when the terrier is looking toward the humans or the house the people just run off. At some point the terrier moves in toward objects cars and bushes for cover to stop the onslaught and to close the open spaces while snapping and batting the Kishu off. Wedged into a corner with little room, only then does the Kishu somewhat handicap a bit at the very end. Certainly one tolerant terrier.
With that said, no matter how tolerant an animal there is a breaking point and that's where it can turn over time, possibly ruining a good friendship. It is so important not to have one animal in a home or friends pushed to the limit of its tolerance and be at the bottom of play, sacrificing fun.
Again intervention and breaking up of the intensity is so important so dogs learn what is appropriate. The younger the age this is started the better. The Kishu will need to have some management with his over the top intensity to keep his behavior in check.
It appears, the Kishu may have what I would call (for lack of better word) "displaced drive", practicing boar skills on other dogs, i.e. extreme neck and hind leg jabs and thrashes.
In some capacity, possibly that needs to be turned to a boar so that he packs better with other dogs. Don't know if it is too late for that or not..... learning the difference between the two species and using his mouth better perhaps.
Not to skirt around reality, my concern is the fact the Kishu could give a hoot about the wishes of the other animal and has already used his mouth to get his point across on multiple species. Certainly I would think twice about introducing a smaller dog or puppy to him with the over the top prey drive since the off switch is on delay or possibly his over arousal is on short circuit.
Thank you for being so honest about his situation and providing a glimpse I truly hope care will be taken to find the right home for him.
Snf
I would think he would need to be paired with a particularly tolerant dog--and certainly a larger one.
Hope he finds a home.
I have a dog that tries to "play" as your Kishu does. I intervene, separate, distract, correct this behavior. I have seen it turn ugly quickly so it is best to prevent it all together. The Wheaten is obviously seeking refuge with the humans and finding no assistance there so he has no choice but to allow the Kishu to "push" him around. One day it may turn quickly and become a very dangerous fight. The Wheaten seems defensive throughout the video, never relaxing and does not seem to enjoy the playdate at all. That Wheaten is one tolerant and patient dog. If I were his owner I would have put a stop to this. If I were Aisu's owner, I would have put a stop to this.
I hope he finds a great home! I wish you the best of luck and I am so sorry you are having to part with your dog. That must have been an extremely difficult decision and I hope it all works out! Please keep us updated
Crispy has good exp and dog-vision, and two big wise dogs, so maybeee!!!
The cats could be a tough pass though...
Saya does well with cats, but if they run she chases..
Tomoe is definitely dog-reactive, but the way she behaves with other dogs is actually very complex. She will snarl and make a display with some dogs when she meets them, but she will almost always take a playful posture immediately after that. It is as if she wants to let them know she will mess them up if they get out of line, but as long as they are clear on that, they can play This is not accepted on-leash behavior though so I try to NOT meet other dogs on-leash like that.
Tomoe generally prefers being chased, so she doesn't usually stay on a dog that is submitting or running away from her.
IMO, I'd say Tomoe is the kind of dog that flushes or distracts prey while Aisu clearly wants to be the dog to take the prey down. I don't know what to tell you about whether this is something that you can change or mitigate. I have given up banging my head against walls trying to get my dog to be a perfect obedience animal. She is extremely good at some things and extremely bad - by modern suburban pet standards - at others. I think you do the best you can with training and socialization but these dogs just take a lot of patience because "f*** you, I am a Kishu."
Since this thread, I have implemented a lot of changes. One of the biggest changes is just my understanding of the dog that I have. shishiinu explained something in simple terms. He said he has hunting dogs and that's what they are. Once I came to terms with this more wholeheartedly, I gave up on situations that I think I was still hanging on to.
Aisu doesn't go to my kids sport events and hang out on the sidelines. I used to do this and it's not the place for him. He comes with us and hangs in the car, and he likes that. I don't take him to a place where there are boud to be a bunch of other dogs and let him run free. That's just asking for trouble.
But with his play with friends, I have done a lot to reel him in. A couple of private messages on this forum gave me a lot of very constructive advice. I wore Aisu out a little before his friend came over to play and that helped. I had to be very vigilant at first to stop Aisu from being too aggressive with the other dog. -I never realized that the other dog had had enough until you guys pointed it out from the videos. Now it seems so obvious. But as I backed Aisu down manually, Bosun stepped up his control over the play and now they play as equals. I still have to call Aisu off sometimes, but Bosun tells him what's up most of the time.
And all of this has calmed Aisu down a little more for other situations. He's a lot better with meeting other dogs now. There are still a lot that he would just as soon bite as sniff, but if I am there, I can control the situation and keep him calm. If a dog runs up to Aisu when he is on a leash, I can insert myself between Aisu and the other dog, send the other dog away and Aisu is pretty much fine with it (doesn't even get his fur up). If this happened a year ago, Aisu would have gone right throuh me and ripped the other dog up. And if my kids are walking Aisu (still) and another dog runs up, they don't have the control to keep Aisu calm. And he will bit the other dog.
But that partly goes back to knowing the situation. Aisu isn't the kind of dog that my young kids can walk on their own, if they might encounter a strange dog. At least for now. If he mellows more or if my kids get better at being the boss, it might change.
The other ongoing issue is that he does sometimes snap at strange kids. Some kids are just oblivous and put their face up to a dog. For those kids, we try to keep Aisu in a bedroom while they are visiting. It's always a challenge when they meet and if we get busy or lose track of a situation, a kid might come over, jump out of their car and pop...Aisu is aggresively investigating what/who is in our yard. That is something we try to minimize but gets away from us sometimes.
And if any time, I just don't like the way Aisu is reacting to someone, I put him on his bed or in a bedroom.
I knew from the start that he isn't a black lab or a golden retreiver. That's exactly why I wanted this breed. But there were some parts of my subconscious that thought I was going to get to the walking off leash at dog parks, etc. Letting go of that fully was an important step in coming to better terms with Aisu.
But thank you all very much for helping me through a really tough time. This is a great resource that helped me keep a dog that I was ready to give up on.
By the way there maybe another Kishu headed for the east coast soon. NY to be exact.