She has him! He rode in the car well and seemed to enjoy it. He's already warming up to her. She hasn't let the two dogs be together yet, but both are calm with one another.
He refuses any sort of containment though. He jumped over/knocked over baby gates/ex. pen configurations, and he was clearly looking for a way to get over her 6 foot fence. So containment will probably be his issue, but we're hoping that after awhile he'll feel at home and won't be trying to get out. (in the mean time, he'll be supervised in the back yard).
And I think he'll be hers! He is great! Sweet and gentle, and playful and silly. He clearly wants to just be with people--it's almost heartbreaking how quickly and optimistically he starts bonding with anyone who is kind to him, and he's so eager to please. This morning, my friend introduced him to her terrier and it went well. Her terrier is too rude in greetings to work well with my dogs, but this GSD just seemed kind of puzzled by the snark (which is jumping up in the face, and sometimes jumping on the side and nipping), and then decided it was a game (the GSD is so young that I think he's like, oh, I guess this is how dogs play. Ok!) They ran around together for a good 1/2 hour til both were exhausted.
She's still keeping them separated most of the time, of course, but the first intro went well, and even though this boy doesn't have a name yet, and my friend keeps saying "he's on probation!" I'm pretty sure he has a home.
Here's some pics of Riley/Maxwell/Blake (some considered names), with Truman,her terrier:
Anyway, before she found this boy, she was applying to GSD rescues in other states. So I got a call from one yesterday that did not go well--good thing she has this boy, because I suspect she would not get a dog from them, and that would be my fault. First questions: how are her dogs treated. My answer, very well, inside dogs, vet care, etc. Second question: how dominant would you rate your friend on a scale of 1-10.
Are you kidding me? It was so stupid, that I said, well, you know I have a difficult time with that question, because I personally don't subscribe to the "dominance theory" in dogs, and my dogs and my friends dogs are great without any use of "dominance." So then the woman went into a thing about how dogs need firm boundaries and need to know who is alpha, blah blah blah, or GSDs, who are very "dominant" dogs will take over and that's why they are in rescue in the first place, etc.
What? I was thinking, you're telling me that GSDs, which are very biddable dogs overall, and a huge number of them are handler soft anyway, are "dominant" and will take over? (You've never had a Shiba, I thought!) So I mentioned that both my friend and I had had handler soft GSDs, and done much better with them with positive reinforcement training. The woman asked me to explain my training methods, so I did, pointing out I have Japanese breeds, which are much less biddable than GSDs. I talked about clicker training and lure and reward and redirection for inappropriate behavior. Then she told me that she knew better about what would work, and that these methods I use allow for too much "dominance," and the dogs would take over and become problem dogs.
At that point, it was clear we weren't going to get anywhere, so I mentioned that my friend possibly had a dog, and that in any case, I wouldn't like our personal disagreement about training to negate the fact that rescue is hard work, that I respect that she makes her choices with dogs she works with and works for her, but that I have a different method, and I thought we could agree to disagree. Unfortunately, she decided, again, to explain why positive reinforcement doesn't work and that's why dogs end up in rescue, blah blah blah. Imagine my head exploding on the phone. I just held my tongue, and watched my "dominant" dogs, who have clearly taken over and were lounging around the house.
And I kept thinking about three GSDs in particular: Gideon and Kai, now departed, and this shy, sweet boy my friend has now. And thinking about how soft and sensitive these dogs are--even raised voices freaked them out. And how terrible it would be--and unnecessary!--to use aversive training methods on them. I didn't bother to tell her how I had frightened my soft GSD by trying aversive methods on him (I didn't know better way back then), but I was just sad, thinking about it.
Anyway, glad this boy has a home now, where people will not yell at him or jerk his collar or anything like that. He is VERY sensitive to being touched on the neck and collar, and pretty handshy at first, and we do wonder if he was used to being treated roughly. He's a bit scared of leashes too, poor boy. But as you can even see from the pics, he's super interested in watching people and taking cues from people, and I think he'll be very easy to train. He already loves the recall game, even though we don't have a name to call him!
Honestly I love the idea of rescues but I think too many of them are too thick-headed when it comes to the "our way or no way" mentality. I do understand they just want what's best for the animals and they want their animals to have permanent homes but there are more than 1 way of doing things without being wrong.
I'm glad your friend found a dog. He looks precious. I hope it continues to go well!
Man, that's so frustrating, re: the rescue. I follow a couple of rescues on FB that require knowledge of Cesar Millan's methods and/or dominance theory before they adopt out dogs to potential owners, and I think it's really unfortunate that those methods are the go-to methods for some rescue groups. It's sad that not following those methods could cost a dog a good home. If I received that kind of call from a rescue group, I would fail with flying colors, too...especially if they did a home visit and found my dogs chilling on the couches (the reason we have multiple couches - FOR the dogs!).
Well, I am glad this GSD is working out for your friend. Thanks for keeping us updated! Yea, I would be super annoyed with that question too, how dominant are you? I probably would not even know how to answer...and FAIL because I am not "dominant or assertive " enough to answer the question, lol.
You sound very diplomatic in the face of what was probably a very trying encounter. UGH. GSD are pretty "old school" dogs, and it doesn't surprise me that the rescue subscribes to "old school" methods as well... though it would be nice if everyone was on the same page as far as recent research goes.
I've seen the issue of "dominance" come up every now and then in some other breed rescues as well -- old, new, and "rare" breed alike. I know, it's a frustrating mindset to confront at best, and interferes with what could potentially be a beautiful match, at worst. In my experience, that kind of hardline approach is often concentrated amongst a few individual gatekeepers (fosters, screeners, etc.), and doesn't always reflect the overall rescue group... though unfortunately, these are some of folks that exert the most influence for a long time to come...
Anyway, it is nice to see pictures of the GSD (with a rear that's not all screwed up! but where's his tail? LOL) and Truman! I think "Maxwell" goes well with Truman. He doesn't particularly look like a Riley or a Blake to me.
I think he'll be ok with the birds, but bear watching. He was startled and a little scared by the African grey (who screamed "No!" when he approached her cage, followed by "do you want to go outside" which is her way of saying "go outside now!") The other two he doesn't seem interested in, though I noted he was watching the smallest conure a bit more intently than the other two. It looked more curious than predatory, but like I said, will bear watching.
The only word he seems to know is "no" though, so when my friend said that when he was by the birds, he immediately left and came to her.
The rescue thing: yeah, it's frustrating. I've had pretty bad luck with several rescues, mostly because of this: someone who is doing the screening who really believes there is only one way to do things. I think it means that good homes--maybe even better homes--are dismissed. I think it would be useful to go through a whole list of things, even if there is disagreement, then weigh the home on a variety of things, rather than focusing on just one (like "dominance" or in my case, because I had Shibas). She will be a really good home for this dog. He probably won't end up going to a lot of classes or doing dog sports, but he will be well cared, have good vet care, and live in the house with someone who loves him. He'll probably go to a class or two, too. I think that's a pretty good life for a rescue dog--for any dog.
And yes, he has a pretty straight back. And he does have a tail. When he's excited, he carries it up over his back more than most GSDs do.
Glad she found a dog that will work out. He looks very sweet. I love to see GSD with a functional rear. I hate to watch them move in the show ring, it looks so painful with the sloping rear end.
What a handsome fellow! That dark band above his eyes kinda looks like a GIANT curved unibrow. I can't really tell from the pictures, but it looks like he doesn't have that extreme sloped back that show GSD's have... I hate seeing that. Anywho, The bird story is kinda funny, I hope he gets along good with the bird and other dog.
I've had similar experiences with rescues, and shelters (and one breeder). I was kinda shocked by the shelter I got Conker at, they weren't anything like the others I tried and didn't seem too concerned that I didn't feel the need to dominate my little Shiba all the time, or feed him only Science Diet, or whatever else the other groups had problems with. But, I think they'd have given a dog to practically anybody so... Not sure on that one. However, those negative experiences really soured my attitude towards these groups, but as long as they aren't the close-minded/only-my-way-or-you-aren't-getting-a-dog types, I think they are great.
@Losech...I LOVE the unibrow! We're calling it that now!
And yeah, I'm kind of soured on many rescues for the same reason....I've just not had good experiences, which is too bad, because I really, really want to support rescues. Luckily, I've also run into some very good ones, so that keeps me from being entirely negative. (Great Akita rescue here in NM, and I've met some wonderful Shiba rescue people too, and one of the all breed rescues here is fabulous).
Update on Maxwell, which will probably be his name. He's great with the birds--ignores them when my friend is carrying them (I wouldn't have carried my birds out of the cage with a strange dog near by, but....). Him and the terrier are good buds already. GSD chews a bit in the house, but he's young. So far, everything has been good.
Except today he bit (nipped) the vet. In the face. Yikes! It's not a deal breaker yet, but of course it is serious. But I will say this--my friend has the same vet as me. I really really like them for a lot of things, but they are not perfect, and I have continually seen them not read canine body language well, and not take precautions when I think they should. So...I kind of understand how this happened. I was there for part of the visit (before the bite) and I noticed the vet kept patting the dog on the head (which as you all know many dogs don't like, and this dog is particularly hand-shy, and of course we know nothing about him at all, but I have seen he does not like his head/neck touched, unless he initiates it). I could see he was getting stressed, so I said something, and they said "oh, he's fine, look, he's smiling" but I thought the smile was the stress grin I see on Bel, for example.
So anyway apparently in the office, the vet was down on the floor with him, and patting him on the head again, and kind of ruffling his ears, and he had his face very close to the dog, and then someone came in the door, and the dog got startled, and the vet fell forward into the dog, with his hand still on the dog's neck, and the dog bit him on the nose. I feel like it was a whole bunch of not so good circumstances coming together--stressed, frightened dog with strangers, someone in his face, and then someone falling into him. He appeared to bite with this front teeth only, and yes, it did draw blood, but only a tiny bit, and the dog backed off right away, and obviously did show bite inhibition (it was very similar to the bite I've gotten on several occasions by my friend's overexcited terrier, but this was clearly a fear bite).
My friend is still going to try with him, though, because while she's not great at reading canine body language either (and I'm starting to get surprised about how many people are not--even the vets with 30 years of practice!), she saw immediately that this was very stressful circumstances for him.
I suggested she call a behavioralist (which of course is the advice we all would give, right?), since the dog is fearful, and while he will get more comfortable with her, she does need to work with underlying fearfulness. So she did, right away, and the behavioralist here is great--I've worked with, Brad has worked with her--and she has and loves GSDs, and she's already making suggestions, and they haven't even had their consultation yet. (She also thought this bite did not necessarily mean the dog was a problem dog, but that working with him now would be good).
So we're hopeful, still, and I think my friend is doing the right thing to work with the behavioralist. This is a sweet, shy, very young dog (probably around a year old) that is clearly unsocialized, and he should not have bitten, but I don't think it is time to give up on him yet. I think it's worth a try, anyway.
Thanks! I'm trying, and I'm hoping it will help for this dog. He's super mouthy--I visited today, and my hand was in his mouth more than it was out, and because he's also got that GSD neediness, he was also sometimes trying to grab my arm from behind, which was annoying....but I also thought, I bet it was this mouthiness that caused him problems where ever he came from. He has good bite inhibition, but also is a big boy (he weighed in in at 85 pounds), and he needs to learn not to use his mouth all the time. I just stopped touching him when he did it, but it seems actually saying "no" works better (it's the only word the poor guy seems to know).
My friend freaked out a bit because this morning the new dog growled and snapped at the terrier over a resource (a popsicle stick. Sigh. Dogs.) I was surprised he hasn't done it sooner--her terrier is super rude and really gets in other dog's faces, and the GSD had the oh-so-desirable stick first. I had to remind her that 1) she's had this dog less than a week 2) many, many dogs are resource guarders 3) it took us 1.5 months to get Oskar and a puppy to be able to tolerate one another. Patience!
Anyway, my friend is talking to the behavioralist tomorrow, to set up the actual in person consult, so I'm sure my friend will have questions, and I know this behavioralist will have a ton of good info. for her.
My friend has been noticing the dog is really hand shy. He does like to be petted, but he has to initiate it. The other day, he was chewing something he shouldn't be (an electrical cord) and she said no, sharply, but not yelling, and he dropped to the ground and cowered. He also was curling his lip at her. She's noticed he does seem to get scared of certain things (esp. the word "no"). While there are plenty of dogs who have simply been undersocialized who are fearful and people think they were abused, we're beginning to wonder if this dog really was abused. He only knows the word no, and it elicts a very fearful, but also slightly aggressive, reaction from him (a combo of cowering and lifting his lip).
Well, we figured, ok, just use another word, and speak softly around him.
But today the behavioralist came out. She's great. The first hour went really well--he did bark at her at first, but by the end of the hour, he was asking to be petted, and was fine. She had just said "I don't think there is anything wrong with this dog." She was then demonstrating to my friend how to teach the "watch me" command with a clicker and treats. My friend noticed that all of sudden, the dog curled his lip, and she mentioned it, but the behavioralist hadn't seen it, and continued. Another watch me, and a treat, and she leaned over the dog very slightly when she fed him the treat (she's tiny by the way, and not at all threatening). He jumped up and nipped at her face.
As it happened, it was more muzzle/lip contact than teeth, but after that, he sat there steadily growling at her. They just sat still until he calmed down. It took him a few minutes.
The lip curl thing is complicated--he does it a lot, and it's not always clear he's warning, because sometimes he seems happy when he does it. But....this is the second time in two weeks he went for someone's face.
And then my friend admitted she was starting to be afraid of him, because he stares at her a lot, and sometimes she sees his gaze go from GSD "what do you want me to do next?" to something that looks a little threatening and a little wild. I know what she means--I've seen him do it too. And I wasn't that comfortable with him today either. He was friendly with me as always and kept trying to get me to pet him, but sometimes when I was petting he curled his lip, and though the rest of his body language suggested he was comfortable, I was not so comfortable with it. And a couple of times, he stopped nuzzling me and stood back and stared at me in an odd way (kind of like my crazy girl does when she's not all in her head).
So the behavioralist suggested a full thyroid panel and blood work, but she also said that my friend needed to decide how much work she was willing to do, because this may not be easy.
I don't even know what to say. I didn't realize she's been feeling uneasy about the dog before. Now this. I also don't know what to do. Go for the full blood work up, knowing she's spending money on a dog she may not be able to save? Or take him to the humane society, knowing full well they'll likely euthanize him (because we both feel she has to be honest on the little history she has of him, which includes some aggression toward people). I doubt a rescue would take him. A part of me is saying, yes, try everything! Do the bloodwork! And another part is thinking about how stressful it must be to be living with this strange dog who is now scaring her, and saying, no, don't spend yet more money on this when it may not help at all.
It's really heartbreaking....I do think something bad happened to this dog at some point, but he's unpredictable now. And whil he mostly plays well with her terrier, there have been times she's had to separate them, and now she's worried about reaching down and grabbing him if she had to, because he's shown aggression in those kind of circumstances.
Not sure if anyone has any suggestions, but if you do, we'd like to hear them. Even if it is just that yes, he may be too unpredictable to save....
She'll have to take him to the shelter. The people she got him from had just found him, and they don't want him back (and they've actually moved back to their winter home anyway). She is going to try animal humane, because they don't euthanize the dogs so quickly, but I just read their policies, and I don't think they'll take him.
So part of the hard thing about this is that giving him up could very well mean he'll be euthanized....in fact it probably will. Which makes it harder.
He most likely would be. He shouldn't be biting for peoples faces however. Even if it is warning nips. She will need to decide how much behavior work she wants to put into him. If the dog is mentally unsound and on top of that sounds like he comes with a significant abuse history, that's a huge task ahead of her. What about GSD rescue instead of a shelter?
This really sucks. Though I agree with @lindsayt because she should not feel fearful of the GSD. Who knows what might happen if she has to separate the terrier and the GSD. Anyhow, even if the blood work is done, and he has a thyroid issue, will meds be enough to take care of his aggression given his abusive history? A rescue may not take him because that is a HUGE liability and getting him rehabed may be difficult. Sometimes, the hardest thing is to let go. Sorry to hear this
I agree with what's already been said and I'm so sorry to hear about this. Your friend has been through the ringer and the last thing someone should feel is afraid, in their own home, of their own dog. There are plenty of adoptable dogs that can be a better fit. It's really up to your friend in the end though--how far she's willing to go to work with this dog.
I'm really sorry to hear that things took this turn.
From my own experience, fixing the thyroid issue accounted for a very significant change (I'd say 80% of our problems were solved, if I could quantify it). I know that's not the case for every dog, but in many cases, knowing that is what could save them from a death sentence makes me more inclined to just do it. And honestly, I don't think anyone can say with certainty the extent of abuse that this GSD experienced. Unfortunately, that's the thing with rescues... you really can't know everything about the dog's past. And especially when going through a private adoption instead of an organization, these are the greater risks -- and responsibilities -- incurred.
I think if it were me, I would run the blood panel, including the thyroid tests -- and let that be my parting "gift" for the rescue to whom I surrender him. If the tests turn up completely normal and it really comes down to making up for an unknown past through behavioral rehabilitation... well, I totally understand your friend's concern. I would not be in a position to handle aggression issues with a dog the size of a GSD, and yes, I would be a little afraid too. But knowing, at the time he was taken in, that there would be no "take backs," I do feel like this is the least she could do before making the next decision, as difficult as it will be.
Please wish her my best, and good luck with whatever decision you make.
Animal humane has Ripley the GSD now. I'm glad they took him though, even after my friend told them about the biting. They said they'd neuter him and check his thyroid levels and work with a behavior modification program (all positive), and she can even get him back if she wants (she'd have to pay for the care/training). I don't think she does want him back, but it's a good program he's in, and I like that they do give people the option, if they seem like responsible but overwhelmed owners. They are pretty much the best of the shelters here--privately run, progressive, and they do only take animals they think they can place.
They said there are no guarantees of course...if he bites someone else, they may have to put him down--but I feel much more optimistic for his future.
And I'm trying not to feel blame--I kept thinking I would have done the thyroid test first, and maybe kept him a few more weeks to see. But I understand she feels overwhelmed and scared, and she felt she couldn't handle it. I'm still really sorry though. I know not everyone can stand to keep working with the problem dogs, and there were times he even made me feel uneasy (I mean, when a GSD is sticking his muzzle in your face, albeit in a friendly manner, and you know he's bit two people already, you can't help but feel a bit anxious. And sometimes he did get the same look Bel had--blank, anxious, unpredictable. Makes me wonder if he has a seizure disorder too?) But....I do wish she had tried a little longer. Two weeks is not a long time for a dog who has been through god knows what.
I even thought of taking him, but of course we can't add another to our four, and Oskar would not have tolerated him.
I hope he'll get some good help and be able to find a home that will suit him. I can say that some of the best trainers in ABQ work with the dogs at there, including the behaviorist who already met him, and I think he's at least got a chance here.
oh... yea, one of Stacey's would give you guys half siblings! That would be cute! )
I guess Dani is a great choice for this situation since she has GSDs, huh? I mean, she's great anyway...
Ike "smiles" and shows his teeth, his front teeth. He pulls his lips up and shows them when he's excited - kinda the way wolves do. I wonder if some of the behaviors was similar to Ike's?
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He refuses any sort of containment though. He jumped over/knocked over baby gates/ex. pen configurations, and he was clearly looking for a way to get over her 6 foot fence. So containment will probably be his issue, but we're hoping that after awhile he'll feel at home and won't be trying to get out. (in the mean time, he'll be supervised in the back yard).
She's still keeping them separated most of the time, of course, but the first intro went well, and even though this boy doesn't have a name yet, and my friend keeps saying "he's on probation!" I'm pretty sure he has a home.
Here's some pics of Riley/Maxwell/Blake (some considered names), with Truman,her terrier:
Anyway, before she found this boy, she was applying to GSD rescues in other states. So I got a call from one yesterday that did not go well--good thing she has this boy, because I suspect she would not get a dog from them, and that would be my fault. First questions: how are her dogs treated. My answer, very well, inside dogs, vet care, etc. Second question: how dominant would you rate your friend on a scale of 1-10.
Are you kidding me? It was so stupid, that I said, well, you know I have a difficult time with that question, because I personally don't subscribe to the "dominance theory" in dogs, and my dogs and my friends dogs are great without any use of "dominance." So then the woman went into a thing about how dogs need firm boundaries and need to know who is alpha, blah blah blah, or GSDs, who are very "dominant" dogs will take over and that's why they are in rescue in the first place, etc.
What? I was thinking, you're telling me that GSDs, which are very biddable dogs overall, and a huge number of them are handler soft anyway, are "dominant" and will take over? (You've never had a Shiba, I thought!) So I mentioned that both my friend and I had had handler soft GSDs, and done much better with them with positive reinforcement training. The woman asked me to explain my training methods, so I did, pointing out I have Japanese breeds, which are much less biddable than GSDs. I talked about clicker training and lure and reward and redirection for inappropriate behavior. Then she told me that she knew better about what would work, and that these methods I use allow for too much "dominance," and the dogs would take over and become problem dogs.
At that point, it was clear we weren't going to get anywhere, so I mentioned that my friend possibly had a dog, and that in any case, I wouldn't like our personal disagreement about training to negate the fact that rescue is hard work, that I respect that she makes her choices with dogs she works with and works for her, but that I have a different method, and I thought we could agree to disagree. Unfortunately, she decided, again, to explain why positive reinforcement doesn't work and that's why dogs end up in rescue, blah blah blah. Imagine my head exploding on the phone. I just held my tongue, and watched my "dominant" dogs, who have clearly taken over and were lounging around the house.
And I kept thinking about three GSDs in particular: Gideon and Kai, now departed, and this shy, sweet boy my friend has now. And thinking about how soft and sensitive these dogs are--even raised voices freaked them out. And how terrible it would be--and unnecessary!--to use aversive training methods on them. I didn't bother to tell her how I had frightened my soft GSD by trying aversive methods on him (I didn't know better way back then), but I was just sad, thinking about it.
Anyway, glad this boy has a home now, where people will not yell at him or jerk his collar or anything like that. He is VERY sensitive to being touched on the neck and collar, and pretty handshy at first, and we do wonder if he was used to being treated roughly. He's a bit scared of leashes too, poor boy. But as you can even see from the pics, he's super interested in watching people and taking cues from people, and I think he'll be very easy to train. He already loves the recall game, even though we don't have a name to call him!
Honestly I love the idea of rescues but I think too many of them are too thick-headed when it comes to the "our way or no way" mentality. I do understand they just want what's best for the animals and they want their animals to have permanent homes but there are more than 1 way of doing things without being wrong.
Man, that's so frustrating, re: the rescue. I follow a couple of rescues on FB that require knowledge of Cesar Millan's methods and/or dominance theory before they adopt out dogs to potential owners, and I think it's really unfortunate that those methods are the go-to methods for some rescue groups. It's sad that not following those methods could cost a dog a good home. If I received that kind of call from a rescue group, I would fail with flying colors, too...especially if they did a home visit and found my dogs chilling on the couches (the reason we have multiple couches - FOR the dogs!).
I've seen the issue of "dominance" come up every now and then in some other breed rescues as well -- old, new, and "rare" breed alike. I know, it's a frustrating mindset to confront at best, and interferes with what could potentially be a beautiful match, at worst. In my experience, that kind of hardline approach is often concentrated amongst a few individual gatekeepers (fosters, screeners, etc.), and doesn't always reflect the overall rescue group... though unfortunately, these are some of folks that exert the most influence for a long time to come...
Anyway, it is nice to see pictures of the GSD (with a rear that's not all screwed up! but where's his tail? LOL) and Truman! I think "Maxwell" goes well with Truman. He doesn't particularly look like a Riley or a Blake to me.
How's he getting along with the birds?
The only word he seems to know is "no" though, so when my friend said that when he was by the birds, he immediately left and came to her.
The rescue thing: yeah, it's frustrating. I've had pretty bad luck with several rescues, mostly because of this: someone who is doing the screening who really believes there is only one way to do things. I think it means that good homes--maybe even better homes--are dismissed. I think it would be useful to go through a whole list of things, even if there is disagreement, then weigh the home on a variety of things, rather than focusing on just one (like "dominance" or in my case, because I had Shibas). She will be a really good home for this dog. He probably won't end up going to a lot of classes or doing dog sports, but he will be well cared, have good vet care, and live in the house with someone who loves him. He'll probably go to a class or two, too. I think that's a pretty good life for a rescue dog--for any dog.
And yes, he has a pretty straight back. And he does have a tail. When he's excited, he carries it up over his back more than most GSDs do.
Anywho, The bird story is kinda funny, I hope he gets along good with the bird and other dog.
I've had similar experiences with rescues, and shelters (and one breeder). I was kinda shocked by the shelter I got Conker at, they weren't anything like the others I tried and didn't seem too concerned that I didn't feel the need to dominate my little Shiba all the time, or feed him only Science Diet, or whatever else the other groups had problems with. But, I think they'd have given a dog to practically anybody so... Not sure on that one.
However, those negative experiences really soured my attitude towards these groups, but as long as they aren't the close-minded/only-my-way-or-you-aren't-getting-a-dog types, I think they are great.
And yeah, I'm kind of soured on many rescues for the same reason....I've just not had good experiences, which is too bad, because I really, really want to support rescues. Luckily, I've also run into some very good ones, so that keeps me from being entirely negative. (Great Akita rescue here in NM, and I've met some wonderful Shiba rescue people too, and one of the all breed rescues here is fabulous).
Update on Maxwell, which will probably be his name. He's great with the birds--ignores them when my friend is carrying them (I wouldn't have carried my birds out of the cage with a strange dog near by, but....). Him and the terrier are good buds already. GSD chews a bit in the house, but he's young. So far, everything has been good.
Except today he bit (nipped) the vet. In the face. Yikes! It's not a deal breaker yet, but of course it is serious. But I will say this--my friend has the same vet as me. I really really like them for a lot of things, but they are not perfect, and I have continually seen them not read canine body language well, and not take precautions when I think they should. So...I kind of understand how this happened. I was there for part of the visit (before the bite) and I noticed the vet kept patting the dog on the head (which as you all know many dogs don't like, and this dog is particularly hand-shy, and of course we know nothing about him at all, but I have seen he does not like his head/neck touched, unless he initiates it). I could see he was getting stressed, so I said something, and they said "oh, he's fine, look, he's smiling" but I thought the smile was the stress grin I see on Bel, for example.
So anyway apparently in the office, the vet was down on the floor with him, and patting him on the head again, and kind of ruffling his ears, and he had his face very close to the dog, and then someone came in the door, and the dog got startled, and the vet fell forward into the dog, with his hand still on the dog's neck, and the dog bit him on the nose. I feel like it was a whole bunch of not so good circumstances coming together--stressed, frightened dog with strangers, someone in his face, and then someone falling into him. He appeared to bite with this front teeth only, and yes, it did draw blood, but only a tiny bit, and the dog backed off right away, and obviously did show bite inhibition (it was very similar to the bite I've gotten on several occasions by my friend's overexcited terrier, but this was clearly a fear bite).
My friend is still going to try with him, though, because while she's not great at reading canine body language either (and I'm starting to get surprised about how many people are not--even the vets with 30 years of practice!), she saw immediately that this was very stressful circumstances for him.
I suggested she call a behavioralist (which of course is the advice we all would give, right?), since the dog is fearful, and while he will get more comfortable with her, she does need to work with underlying fearfulness. So she did, right away, and the behavioralist here is great--I've worked with, Brad has worked with her--and she has and loves GSDs, and she's already making suggestions, and they haven't even had their consultation yet. (She also thought this bite did not necessarily mean the dog was a problem dog, but that working with him now would be good).
So we're hopeful, still, and I think my friend is doing the right thing to work with the behavioralist. This is a sweet, shy, very young dog (probably around a year old) that is clearly unsocialized, and he should not have bitten, but I don't think it is time to give up on him yet. I think it's worth a try, anyway.
My friend freaked out a bit because this morning the new dog growled and snapped at the terrier over a resource (a popsicle stick. Sigh. Dogs.) I was surprised he hasn't done it sooner--her terrier is super rude and really gets in other dog's faces, and the GSD had the oh-so-desirable stick first. I had to remind her that 1) she's had this dog less than a week 2) many, many dogs are resource guarders 3) it took us 1.5 months to get Oskar and a puppy to be able to tolerate one another. Patience!
Anyway, my friend is talking to the behavioralist tomorrow, to set up the actual in person consult, so I'm sure my friend will have questions, and I know this behavioralist will have a ton of good info. for her.
My friend has been noticing the dog is really hand shy. He does like to be petted, but he has to initiate it. The other day, he was chewing something he shouldn't be (an electrical cord) and she said no, sharply, but not yelling, and he dropped to the ground and cowered. He also was curling his lip at her. She's noticed he does seem to get scared of certain things (esp. the word "no"). While there are plenty of dogs who have simply been undersocialized who are fearful and people think they were abused, we're beginning to wonder if this dog really was abused. He only knows the word no, and it elicts a very fearful, but also slightly aggressive, reaction from him (a combo of cowering and lifting his lip).
Well, we figured, ok, just use another word, and speak softly around him.
But today the behavioralist came out. She's great. The first hour went really well--he did bark at her at first, but by the end of the hour, he was asking to be petted, and was fine. She had just said "I don't think there is anything wrong with this dog." She was then demonstrating to my friend how to teach the "watch me" command with a clicker and treats. My friend noticed that all of sudden, the dog curled his lip, and she mentioned it, but the behavioralist hadn't seen it, and continued. Another watch me, and a treat, and she leaned over the dog very slightly when she fed him the treat (she's tiny by the way, and not at all threatening). He jumped up and nipped at her face.
As it happened, it was more muzzle/lip contact than teeth, but after that, he sat there steadily growling at her. They just sat still until he calmed down. It took him a few minutes.
The lip curl thing is complicated--he does it a lot, and it's not always clear he's warning, because sometimes he seems happy when he does it. But....this is the second time in two weeks he went for someone's face.
And then my friend admitted she was starting to be afraid of him, because he stares at her a lot, and sometimes she sees his gaze go from GSD "what do you want me to do next?" to something that looks a little threatening and a little wild. I know what she means--I've seen him do it too. And I wasn't that comfortable with him today either. He was friendly with me as always and kept trying to get me to pet him, but sometimes when I was petting he curled his lip, and though the rest of his body language suggested he was comfortable, I was not so comfortable with it. And a couple of times, he stopped nuzzling me and stood back and stared at me in an odd way (kind of like my crazy girl does when she's not all in her head).
So the behavioralist suggested a full thyroid panel and blood work, but she also said that my friend needed to decide how much work she was willing to do, because this may not be easy.
I don't even know what to say. I didn't realize she's been feeling uneasy about the dog before. Now this. I also don't know what to do. Go for the full blood work up, knowing she's spending money on a dog she may not be able to save? Or take him to the humane society, knowing full well they'll likely euthanize him (because we both feel she has to be honest on the little history she has of him, which includes some aggression toward people). I doubt a rescue would take him. A part of me is saying, yes, try everything! Do the bloodwork! And another part is thinking about how stressful it must be to be living with this strange dog who is now scaring her, and saying, no, don't spend yet more money on this when it may not help at all.
It's really heartbreaking....I do think something bad happened to this dog at some point, but he's unpredictable now. And whil he mostly plays well with her terrier, there have been times she's had to separate them, and now she's worried about reaching down and grabbing him if she had to, because he's shown aggression in those kind of circumstances.
Not sure if anyone has any suggestions, but if you do, we'd like to hear them. Even if it is just that yes, he may be too unpredictable to save....
So part of the hard thing about this is that giving him up could very well mean he'll be euthanized....in fact it probably will. Which makes it harder.
I hope this is resolved soon.
From my own experience, fixing the thyroid issue accounted for a very significant change (I'd say 80% of our problems were solved, if I could quantify it). I know that's not the case for every dog, but in many cases, knowing that is what could save them from a death sentence makes me more inclined to just do it. And honestly, I don't think anyone can say with certainty the extent of abuse that this GSD experienced. Unfortunately, that's the thing with rescues... you really can't know everything about the dog's past. And especially when going through a private adoption instead of an organization, these are the greater risks -- and responsibilities -- incurred.
I think if it were me, I would run the blood panel, including the thyroid tests -- and let that be my parting "gift" for the rescue to whom I surrender him. If the tests turn up completely normal and it really comes down to making up for an unknown past through behavioral rehabilitation... well, I totally understand your friend's concern. I would not be in a position to handle aggression issues with a dog the size of a GSD, and yes, I would be a little afraid too. But knowing, at the time he was taken in, that there would be no "take backs," I do feel like this is the least she could do before making the next decision, as difficult as it will be.
Please wish her my best, and good luck with whatever decision you make.
They said there are no guarantees of course...if he bites someone else, they may have to put him down--but I feel much more optimistic for his future.
And I'm trying not to feel blame--I kept thinking I would have done the thyroid test first, and maybe kept him a few more weeks to see. But I understand she feels overwhelmed and scared, and she felt she couldn't handle it. I'm still really sorry though. I know not everyone can stand to keep working with the problem dogs, and there were times he even made me feel uneasy (I mean, when a GSD is sticking his muzzle in your face, albeit in a friendly manner, and you know he's bit two people already, you can't help but feel a bit anxious. And sometimes he did get the same look Bel had--blank, anxious, unpredictable. Makes me wonder if he has a seizure disorder too?) But....I do wish she had tried a little longer. Two weeks is not a long time for a dog who has been through god knows what.
I even thought of taking him, but of course we can't add another to our four, and Oskar would not have tolerated him.
I hope he'll get some good help and be able to find a home that will suit him. I can say that some of the best trainers in ABQ work with the dogs at there, including the behaviorist who already met him, and I think he's at least got a chance here.
I feel so bad that she has had to go through all this.
We can send her a Kai...
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I agree--she needs a Kai!
I guess Dani is a great choice for this situation since she has GSDs, huh? I mean, she's great anyway...
Ike "smiles" and shows his teeth, his front teeth. He pulls his lips up and shows them when he's excited - kinda the way wolves do. I wonder if some of the behaviors was similar to Ike's?
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So sorry this happened I hope she finds a dog she can enjoy not be worried about.
:Fixed it. lol