So... TK nipped someone on the butt. That happened, today, in my life.
The man he nipped wasn't physically hurt outside what he described as a "scrape" (which would "bruise later"), thankfully. I think most of the damage was emotional.
It was just a case of all of the conditions being absolutely wrong. Little things adding up to make a horrible situation. This man also made an awful scene. It was awful. I have never felt so frightened, offended and protective in my life. I feel like I should have known better, but at the same time, I know there's no way I could have accounted for everything that lead up into this happening.
At first, I kept asking him if he was alright. I did my best and kept cool and tried to smooth things over. It wasn't until he started verbally attacking TK and London (who really had nothing to do with anything) that I really started to feel a type of way.
In the end, I gave him my information to report me if he felt it necessary, assured him that TK already had a training game plan to address his personal "shortcomings" and that he'd never done this before (and I was very sorry any of this happened). I haven't gotten him licensed in my city yet, but I have 30 days, so I should be okay there. -I- ended up calling the cops to preempt any complaints to give them my information in case anything happened.
He also has a vet appointment - not only to cover my bases, but to check out his teeth. He's been drooling an awful lot since I've had him here and he's very sensitive about his mouth or hands coming near his face. He has some broken teeth. I believe this had a part to play in what happened today.
Takoda has been acting like a nutbag since we got home. I think he's acting up because I'm upset. He's been freaking out at the cats and keeps pouncing on me and London.
I feel really badly that he hurt someone, even if it was more emotional than physical. I'm upset that this guy made a scene, made me feel like shit and attacked my dogs. I feel stupid for letting it happen when it's my -job- to prevent this sort of thing and help when something like this DOES happen.
Nothing is okay right now. Everything is awful. The world is ending. I'm having a crisis. Why is drama happening right now?
Oh I'm so sorry that this had to happen now. I know it doesn't help but I think you did everything right. You can help people being douchebags. The reality is you know your dogs better than he so don't let his words get to you. Some people just can't feel good unless they put someone down. Time out Takoda take some down time to yourself, I think you deserve it. I'm so sorry.
I feel much better today. It helped that the officer I spoke to made light of things and my vet's office did their best to make me feel better.
I was in the office today when Mura came in and I spoke to Paul for a little while. He seemed ecstatic to see another Shikoku and was super excited that TK was a brother to Kuma. Mura was a little less enthusiastic about leaving her "daddy".
I felt a little bad that all he wanted to do was pet TK and all Takoda wanted to do was bark at him. He was thrilled despite TK's obnoxious behavior.
We're on a positive association and sit-politely binge from here on out. Takoda is finally getting used to my coworkers and he's let many of them scratch his butt and pat his shoulders. It's good improvement, especially to see after what happened yesterday evening.
Glad you are feeling better today. It sounds like maybe Takoda was not all that well socialized to new people previously? Or he is one of the more rare males who is more shy of new people, that usually is a more female trait.
@Edgewood - he doesn't seem necessarily fearful of people. He'll come up to them and poke at them and lean on them. He freaks out when they try to touch him, though. After a while, it's like he's trying to play with them and thinks the reaction he gets is hilarious, I -swear-. It's so strange. With Paul, he was barking like he was offended at first and when he saw Paul would pull his hands away, he got this "Shikoku smirk" on his face and started wagging his tail and he'd do it all over again when Paul tried to be friendly even though all signs otherwise said "go".
With people who are too close to us on our walks, he gets up on his back feet and just... bounces along like a meerkat. It's so strange. It's like he's playing or thinks people/strangers are just a toy to abuse. I have no doubt he's leery with people, but I also don't think he was ever taught how to act appropriately with people.
He doesn't do it to me to such an obnoxious degree, but when he's feeling really playful, he'll bounce on me and dig at me and just act very "rude". I don't mind it so much and I play with London like that, but I think Takoda needs a cut-back on playtime with people while he's in training so he learns what is appropriate and what is not.
Interesting....I have no doubt that you have been around a lot of dogs and can read his signals. And I think that you may be right if his previous owner never provided "appropriate" rules of interaction with people. Shikoku can be very rude with people if you would let them.
Kuma will bark at some people, but that is usually once he's met them and comfortable with them and he barks at them to get them to play with him/wrestle. He does the same with Sachi (bark at her to get her to play). So it could be that Takoda thinks he is getting the stranger to play, but just doesn't have the appropriate "greeting" skills yet.
So at the end of work today, I let TK run around the office since none of my coworkers were around, while I finished up. I heard the office hall open, but didn't really think anything of it.
A few seconds later, I hear Takoda's play growls coming from down the hall. When I went to check, one of our clients was wrestling with him at the end of the hall! I guess he had to use the bathroom and made a little pit-stop 'to say hi'. It kind of just reinforced, to me, that Takoda is playfully inappropriate. He was very polite with the man after that.
It was a busy day, but I'm feeling more confident about where to start now that I'm aware of the problem.
The other thing he does that makes me paranoid tho... he kicks his back legs out every now and then. Like a particularly violent muscle spasm. What's that about? :1
The leg kicking could be a knee problem... Conker would do that when his patella slipped out of place, when he could still get it back in on his own. He can't anymore so he doesn't kick like that much. Now he just kinda stretches it backwards but it never helps.
LoL, Miyu also randomly kicks her leg back in a mule kick fashion, sometimes even making contact with one of us. She has bad hips so I've contributed it to that, her knees are nice and tight so no issue there.
@ttddinh@Calia I spoke to my coworker who is in school for medical and she said (she's reading a lot about the Shikoku - she really likes them and I had actually told her about Takoda when he was up for adoption still) that it may be something minor but neurological if there's already neurological/nervous conditions in the breed.
She likened it to a myoclonic jerk in a person or kind of like a hiccup. She also said it could mean nothing - it could just be a twitch. It's interesting to see that it's in all three of them, though! She got to see it a few times today and didn't seem particularly worried with just that one symptom. I think I'm going to watch Mura over the week that she's here and see if she does it.
My vet is amazing, so when we go see her, I'm going to ask her what she thinks about it. She's the one that figured Russell's issues out when the diagnosis was difficult and stuck by him even when he was still a "jerk". That isn't until the 28th, though (she's on vacation all week next week and only works weekends at my clinic).
Chocho's done it a few times as well. She hasn't done it in a long time, though. She did it more when we first got her and she'd spend all day in her crate.
I'm so sorry this thing happened....but...what happened exactly? I'm kind of confused. He bit this guy on the butt? And what about his teeth? He has broken teeth? Why? I think I missed something....
the kicking of the rear legs is what dogs do when they have luxating patella and it slips out of place. Both my Shibas do it occasionally, and one did have to have surgery and one has not had surgery. It's pretty easy for a vet to diagnose even without xrays though--they can feel it slipping in and out of place--so your vet can tell you for sure.
Though this probably not the case with Takoda at all, I'll mention this. My GSD had a problem with nipping people when he was excited. It was usually inappropriate, overly excited play, and he'd nip, but often too hard. When I finally realized it was bad, he bit someone on the butt and while it didn't break the skin, it did scrape and it left her pretty black and blue (she didn't even tell me about it until the next day!!!) I was really worried for him. It never seemed like any kind of aggression, just that he got too excited with play and couldn't calm himself. Finally took him to the vet and it ended up he was hypothyroid, and his case, had almost no thyroid function at all. He improved significantly with meds, and never bit anyone again.
Now in Takoda's case, he may just not know how to play, or something, but if it continues and he seems to just be too wound up, it certainly wouldn't hurt to have them run the test. My GSD did have one other symptom--his coat was oily and the hair on his tail was thin (typical hypothyroid dog), but my Shibas have had no hair coat symptoms at all and were low thyroid, so the coat problems don't always show up.
@shibamistress - We were on our walk on Friday afternoon. We inly go a few blocks and there are rarely any people so I wasn't really prepared (my fault). We had a pretty serious blizzard not too long ago, so the city is still in the process of clearing the sidewalks. There wasn't much room for anyone to pass when we met a man down the road. I tried to get off the path to let him pass as he looked uncomfortable, but I tripped over a large rock burried in the snow. He tried to pass by in this sort of... arm-flailing speed-walk in which I think his hand got too close to TK's face. TK jumped up on him and nipped him in the butt.
After the incident, I was shocked. He had never approached someone he didn't like before. He avoids people unless they come up to him (and them he's sassy/obnoxious). The man had (what he described as) 'a scrape that would turn into a bruise' but was otherwise physically okay. What shook me up the most was when he started verbally attacking my dogs and I. Not just TK, but London (who was sitting politely and patiently for the duration) and -me-. I know he was upset, and rightfully so, but I actually started to feel frightened when he was laying into us and asking for personal information.
This is the only person that TK has met that he has acted this way toward.
The comment about the teeth - I believe Takoda is a little handshy, due in part by his teeth. He drools profusely and all of his canjnes are broken. A few of his back teeth as well. One of his canines may be infected or rotting as it is quite brown.
I don't think he has a thyroid problem. I'm pretty familiar with hypo type thanks to London, but I want to get him a full exam with my vet to see what she can or cannot rule out so I know if there is anything medical going on that will effect training.
@poeticdragon - I'm not sure. I am wondering if Monica crated him when he was younger and he did it? He already has separation anxiety with me (but he doesn't destroy anything, just cry) and Monica said he had some while he was with her. I don't think he broke them during the flight as a lot of them look worn down. I asked her about them and I'm just waiting on a reply.
I think, in addition to just plain being picky, his teeth may have something to do with his peckish eating. He's only had two and a half cups of kibble since Tuesday. He will eat if I encourage him with soft foods, which is what I have been doing so far, but only for a few bites after the soft food is finished.
Maybe you're feeding him too much. How big is he? ChoCho is 32 lb. and she eats a little less than 2 cups a day. Have you tried fish oil? Our dogs go crazy over it.
@Hinata23 - I don't think I'm feeding too much. He's 38 pounds and his vet records put him at a 1 and a 2 on the scale of body weight (scaled to 5). He's quite thin. I offer him small portions and I've offered four times a day. He ate a whole cup of food on Thursday and he ate a cup on Saturday. I got him to eat a half cup this morning after adding a bunch of "extras" to it. He may just be settling, but he certainly seems more willing to eat soft things than hard things at this point (no matter how "stinky" his kibble is - I tried to give him orijen and he snuffed it!).
I add fish oil to London's food and have to Takoda's food since I've had him. I toss uneaten portions to keep the kibble from getting too soggy. London eats all his food in one go, so I don't have to worry with him, and I wasn't really worried that Takoda wasn't eating well at first because he's still settling... but after seeing his teeth... I'm a little paranoid (I fret over everything).
TK's food is usually down for half an hour and then I take it away and he misses that meal time. I'd like to get him on a schedule since there's no feasible way to keep his food separate from the household so rogue Londons and kitties do not eat it since he really hates the crate right now.
I did hear back from Monica, now. She says his teeth and nose look the way they do because he likes to dig for and chew on rocks. He hasn't had a dental check yet and when she tried brushing his teeth, it was difficult. I'm taking Takoda in to see the techs at my clinic every day to give him cookies so he can warm up to them before his visit on the 28th (we set it that far ahead because I wanted to see a particular vet).
Well, I cannot speak to his teeth (and I have known dogs that chewed on rocks, not mine, but others).
But like Hinata said about ChoCho, shikoku do not seem to be big eaters. Mine are picky eaters and eat kibble at a variable rate (maybe at most a cup a day but usually not more than that and some days less than that). They do like many soft foods too, but even then, they will bury something if they get full.
Edited to add: both mine are on the skinny side too.
Yeah, he might just be picky. I'm just so used to London scarfing things down and even Russell, the "picky eater" would eat after a little while.
To break up all the serious, Takoda is in love with our carpets (and our dirty laundry). London is always watching Takoda like he's worried about the kid. Originally it was a "I don't know what you'll do so I'm watching you." kind of watching... but now it's more... "you're kind of weird, I like that".
@Crispy - that is definitely a shikoku thing. I bet if you searched the forum for rolling on wet towels, you would see how many shikoku do this type of thing.
My Sachi does it to wet towels, and will pull clean or dirty laundry out of the basket to do it. Kuma does it also to wet towels (but to a lesser extent) and will hop up to do in on our bed pillows at times.
Definitely a shikoku thing. I think that Katja might even note that on her website.
@Edgewood - haha! It's really cute. I don't mind it. London used to roll in "smells" he wanted to "take home" all the time, no matter where they were (even if we were already home). He hasn't done it since he was really young, though, so I find the trait really endearing in Takoda.
I didn't realize it was a pretty big Shikoku thing though! I saw the "smelly thing" comment on Shikoku article a little while back, but I didn't think anything of it.
Kaiju rolls too! And he is on the skinny side...I had a thread about this because I fretted over it. I got a trial size of Canyon Creek and he wolfed it down, until yesterday, when he decided he didn't like it as much anymore.
Yeah, ChoCho is picky sometimes, but I use her OCD against her! She likes her crate to be clean so spill a handful of kibble on it LOL It works like magic when she doesn't want to eat. If she really doesn't want to eat, I take her breakfast away, take her on a walk, and give it to her again. She eats it then.
@Calia - Lol that's a cute , Loa's smile says it all
@Crispy I'm enjoying your story, I'm always interested to see how people transition into adding dogs into their household (my future goal I hope). You have gorgeous dogs!
Comments
The man he nipped wasn't physically hurt outside what he described as a "scrape" (which would "bruise later"), thankfully. I think most of the damage was emotional.
It was just a case of all of the conditions being absolutely wrong. Little things adding up to make a horrible situation. This man also made an awful scene. It was awful. I have never felt so frightened, offended and protective in my life. I feel like I should have known better, but at the same time, I know there's no way I could have accounted for everything that lead up into this happening.
At first, I kept asking him if he was alright. I did my best and kept cool and tried to smooth things over. It wasn't until he started verbally attacking TK and London (who really had nothing to do with anything) that I really started to feel a type of way.
In the end, I gave him my information to report me if he felt it necessary, assured him that TK already had a training game plan to address his personal "shortcomings" and that he'd never done this before (and I was very sorry any of this happened). I haven't gotten him licensed in my city yet, but I have 30 days, so I should be okay there. -I- ended up calling the cops to preempt any complaints to give them my information in case anything happened.
He also has a vet appointment - not only to cover my bases, but to check out his teeth. He's been drooling an awful lot since I've had him here and he's very sensitive about his mouth or hands coming near his face. He has some broken teeth. I believe this had a part to play in what happened today.
Takoda has been acting like a nutbag since we got home. I think he's acting up because I'm upset. He's been freaking out at the cats and keeps pouncing on me and London.
I feel really badly that he hurt someone, even if it was more emotional than physical. I'm upset that this guy made a scene, made me feel like shit and attacked my dogs. I feel stupid for letting it happen when it's my -job- to prevent this sort of thing and help when something like this DOES happen.
Nothing is okay right now. Everything is awful. The world is ending.
I'm having a crisis. Why is drama happening right now?
I am sure Takoda is upset if you are upset (now that you are at home). Both my 2 shikoku are very sensitive to my emotions, especially if I am upset.
I was in the office today when Mura came in and I spoke to Paul for a little while. He seemed ecstatic to see another Shikoku and was super excited that TK was a brother to Kuma. Mura was a little less enthusiastic about leaving her "daddy".
I felt a little bad that all he wanted to do was pet TK and all Takoda wanted to do was bark at him. He was thrilled despite TK's obnoxious behavior.
We're on a positive association and sit-politely binge from here on out. Takoda is finally getting used to my coworkers and he's let many of them scratch his butt and pat his shoulders.
With people who are too close to us on our walks, he gets up on his back feet and just... bounces along like a meerkat. It's so strange. It's like he's playing or thinks people/strangers are just a toy to abuse. I have no doubt he's leery with people, but I also don't think he was ever taught how to act appropriately with people.
He doesn't do it to me to such an obnoxious degree, but when he's feeling really playful, he'll bounce on me and dig at me and just act very "rude". I don't mind it so much and I play with London like that, but I think Takoda needs a cut-back on playtime with people while he's in training so he learns what is appropriate and what is not.
Kuma will bark at some people, but that is usually once he's met them and comfortable with them and he barks at them to get them to play with him/wrestle. He does the same with Sachi (bark at her to get her to play). So it could be that Takoda thinks he is getting the stranger to play, but just doesn't have the appropriate "greeting" skills yet.
A few seconds later, I hear Takoda's play growls coming from down the hall. When I went to check, one of our clients was wrestling with him at the end of the hall! I guess he had to use the bathroom and made a little pit-stop 'to say hi'. It kind of just reinforced, to me, that Takoda is playfully inappropriate. He was very polite with the man after that.
It was a busy day, but I'm feeling more confident about where to start now that I'm aware of the problem.
The other thing he does that makes me paranoid tho... he kicks his back legs out every now and then. Like a particularly violent muscle spasm. What's that about? :1
I spoke to my coworker who is in school for medical and she said (she's reading a lot about the Shikoku - she really likes them and I had actually told her about Takoda when he was up for adoption still) that it may be something minor but neurological if there's already neurological/nervous conditions in the breed.
She likened it to a myoclonic jerk in a person or kind of like a hiccup. She also said it could mean nothing - it could just be a twitch. It's interesting to see that it's in all three of them, though! She got to see it a few times today and didn't seem particularly worried with just that one symptom. I think I'm going to watch Mura over the week that she's here and see if she does it.
My vet is amazing, so when we go see her, I'm going to ask her what she thinks about it. She's the one that figured Russell's issues out when the diagnosis was difficult and stuck by him even when he was still a "jerk". That isn't until the 28th, though (she's on vacation all week next week and only works weekends at my clinic).
the kicking of the rear legs is what dogs do when they have luxating patella and it slips out of place. Both my Shibas do it occasionally, and one did have to have surgery and one has not had surgery. It's pretty easy for a vet to diagnose even without xrays though--they can feel it slipping in and out of place--so your vet can tell you for sure.
Though this probably not the case with Takoda at all, I'll mention this. My GSD had a problem with nipping people when he was excited. It was usually inappropriate, overly excited play, and he'd nip, but often too hard. When I finally realized it was bad, he bit someone on the butt and while it didn't break the skin, it did scrape and it left her pretty black and blue (she didn't even tell me about it until the next day!!!) I was really worried for him. It never seemed like any kind of aggression, just that he got too excited with play and couldn't calm himself. Finally took him to the vet and it ended up he was hypothyroid, and his case, had almost no thyroid function at all. He improved significantly with meds, and never bit anyone again.
Now in Takoda's case, he may just not know how to play, or something, but if it continues and he seems to just be too wound up, it certainly wouldn't hurt to have them run the test. My GSD did have one other symptom--his coat was oily and the hair on his tail was thin (typical hypothyroid dog), but my Shibas have had no hair coat symptoms at all and were low thyroid, so the coat problems don't always show up.
After the incident, I was shocked. He had never approached someone he didn't like before. He avoids people unless they come up to him (and them he's sassy/obnoxious). The man had (what he described as) 'a scrape that would turn into a bruise' but was otherwise physically okay. What shook me up the most was when he started verbally attacking my dogs and I. Not just TK, but London (who was sitting politely and patiently for the duration) and -me-. I know he was upset, and rightfully so, but I actually started to feel frightened when he was laying into us and asking for personal information.
This is the only person that TK has met that he has acted this way toward.
The comment about the teeth - I believe Takoda is a little handshy, due in part by his teeth. He drools profusely and all of his canjnes are broken. A few of his back teeth as well. One of his canines may be infected or rotting as it is quite brown.
I don't think he has a thyroid problem. I'm pretty familiar with hypo type thanks to London, but I want to get him a full exam with my vet to see what she can or cannot rule out so I know if there is anything medical going on that will effect training.
I think, in addition to just plain being picky, his teeth may have something to do with his peckish eating. He's only had two and a half cups of kibble since Tuesday. He will eat if I encourage him with soft foods, which is what I have been doing so far, but only for a few bites after the soft food is finished.
I add fish oil to London's food and have to Takoda's food since I've had him. I toss uneaten portions to keep the kibble from getting too soggy. London eats all his food in one go, so I don't have to worry with him, and I wasn't really worried that Takoda wasn't eating well at first because he's still settling... but after seeing his teeth... I'm a little paranoid (I fret over everything).
TK's food is usually down for half an hour and then I take it away and he misses that meal time. I'd like to get him on a schedule since there's no feasible way to keep his food separate from the household so rogue Londons and kitties do not eat it since he really hates the crate right now.
I did hear back from Monica, now. She says his teeth and nose look the way they do because he likes to dig for and chew on rocks. He hasn't had a dental check yet and when she tried brushing his teeth, it was difficult. I'm taking Takoda in to see the techs at my clinic every day to give him cookies so he can warm up to them before his visit on the 28th (we set it that far ahead because I wanted to see a particular vet).
And a photo update of the terrors.
But like Hinata said about ChoCho, shikoku do not seem to be big eaters. Mine are picky eaters and eat kibble at a variable rate (maybe at most a cup a day but usually not more than that and some days less than that). They do like many soft foods too, but even then, they will bury something if they get full.
Edited to add: both mine are on the skinny side too.
To break up all the serious, Takoda is in love with our carpets (and our dirty laundry). London is always watching Takoda like he's worried about the kid. Originally it was a "I don't know what you'll do so I'm watching you." kind of watching... but now it's more... "you're kind of weird, I like that".
My Sachi does it to wet towels, and will pull clean or dirty laundry out of the basket to do it. Kuma does it also to wet towels (but to a lesser extent) and will hop up to do in on our bed pillows at times.
Definitely a shikoku thing. I think that Katja might even note that on her website.
I didn't realize it was a pretty big Shikoku thing though! I saw the "smelly thing" comment on Shikoku article a little while back, but I didn't think anything of it.
It reminds me of puppy days. I love it.
Also have this cute video of Loa enjoying a wet towel in Wisconsin:
@Crispy I'm enjoying your story, I'm always interested to see how people transition into adding dogs into their household (my future goal I hope). You have gorgeous dogs!