Kai Ken Registration Agencies

edited February 2013 in Kai Ken (甲斐犬)
So in my research for the PERFECT new Kai Ken puppy, I've become a little inundated with information... I've been able to sort a lot of it out on my own, but here's one question that's still a little perplexing --

There's the KKA, the AKC Foundation Stock Service, FCI, UKC... is there any singularly accepted registration agency for Kai Ken or is this a case where all the different agencies have different strengths/weaknesses? Is there one that's more generally accepted as compliant with the original Kai Ken standard than the others? What are some of the differences? Which is most reliable, if any?
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Comments

  • KKA is the Japanese standard. I don't know about the other ones, but following Japanese standard for a Japanese breed sounds appropriate to me. I think that a lot of Kai breeders in the US are trying to move back towards KKA standards thanks to recent Japanese Kai imports.

    Here's some info on KKA Kai Ken: http://www.yamabushikennel.org/kaiken.php
  • The Kai Ken Aigokai (KKA) is the primary preservation society for the Kai Ken in Japan. The KKA holds the overwhelming majority of the Kai Ken registries in Japan. Their annual registrations ranks in the 1000s. The KKA has it's own standard for the breed and is considered by many to be the main Kai Ken standard.

    The Nihon Ken Hozonkai (NIPPO) is Japan's primary preservation/registry for all the Nihon Ken Breeds - including the Kai Ken. NIPPO has it's own more granular standard for the breed, and there are some size discrepancies between NIPPO and KKA. NIPPO's annual registration for the Kai Ken is in the 100s, considerably less than the KKA.

    The Fédération Cynologique Internationale (FCI) is a federation, not a registry. The point of the FCI is to standardize the international kennel club community. Kennel clubs become members of the FCI. In Japan, the only FCI kennel club is the JKC. The JKC has very very few Kai Ken registered annually. The FCI has a Kai Ken standard that each FCI club is expected to follow as a base (tho "breed clubs" within each kennel club may vote to change the breed's standard) - this standard is largely based on the NIPPO standard for the breed.

    The American Kennel Club (AKC) is America's primary kennel club and is an FCI member. Like many rare breeds, the Kai Ken is not yet fully recognized with the AKC which is why they are in AKC-FSS - which means the breed is on a path to becoming fully recognized.

    The United Kennel Club (UKC) is a private corporation in America. It has always been the go-to venue for the rarer dog breeds since they accept breeds who are not yet recognized fully (AKC-FSS) by the AKC. Because of this, the UKC has been the primary club in which the Kai Ken is shown in America. The UKC has no value outside of America since they are not a member of the FCI. The UKC also has it's own standard for the Kai Ken which is much different than the KKA and NIPPO standards.

    As for which to choose, it's up to you. What is important to you? Historic preservation of the breed? Dogs shows? Sport events? We all have our own opinions on this (including myself - I tried to be as unbiased as possible when writing this post tho).

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  • aykayk
    edited February 2013
    Just a little correction. The American Kennel Club (AKC) is not an FCI member. There is no FCI member club in the U.S.

    However, the AKC does have reciprocal agreements with the FCI. So an FCI-registered dog can also get AKC registered and there can be gene flow to/from one to the other without the flagging of their pedigrees.

    A forum member here was able to get a UKC Kai registered with their country's FCI club (Finland?) but the pedigree was designated to the other register.

  • Thanks, @brad... I guess what's most important to me is historic preservation... I think the Nihonken in the US ought to be bred as closely to the traditional, Japanese standard as possible. Intuition says this is more likely to be the case with KKA, but I've also heard that breed preservation is a top priority of UKC breeders as well. Is this just because different people have different ideas on what the standard is? If so, what are some of the main differences between UKC-registered Kai and KKA-registered Kai?

    For that matter, I don't really know how much I trust AKC, despite their reciprocal agreement with FCI... there are too many puppy mill AKC dogs, and I'd never want that for the Kai.
  • edited February 2013
    There is a belief among some breed clubs about what Akc does to breed standards. My experience comes from the English Shepard community where many breeders are trying to stay out of Akc radar and registrys. This is not to slam anyone just an opinion out there that I mildly agree to.

    It is believed that Akc standards are all about looks versus animal use. I understand that all clubs have a visual standard but also largely take into account the dogs use and temperment ( didn't the judge at ahiko/jaca talk about the dogs stoicness?). looking at golden retrievers and labs taking out of accounts mills and byb, there are two very distinct lines for each of these animals, show and hunt/work. In Akc many of the lab hunt dogs bred for success after passing Field trials and the like would be disqualified as hunt lines tend to be taller longer and leaner and a little less neurotic than show lines (originally English?) Which are shorter, boxy and very muscularly stout. So people who may not have other clubs to show at prefer UKC as a club they do fairly well at preserving the dogs original use (does the border collie have the piercing stare used when herding?), if that makes any sense.

    In the case of Kai there are many other options and I think kka is a great standard and option my girl is kka registered thanks to brad and jen but if you were to go another route for whatever reason I would choose UKC over Akc.*

    * i would like to say I had no idea about the American line totally changing the standard then adding to the UKC.
  • I feel it's unfair to say that the UKC has no value outside the US because it is not an FCI club when the exact same statement could be made about AKC! Also it's worth noting that UKC is the largest performance club in the world and focuses on performance events much more than conformation. When it comes to shows, UKC does not allow professional handling, which means you cannot just buy a Championship as you would in AKC. Of course it's still points based (unlike the preservation societies in Japan, or at least, AKIHO) so a dog can become a Champion through gaming the system and sheer perseverance, regardless of quality.
  • Oh, also, you don't have to settle on just one. A dog can be registered with multiple registries, depending on which registries those are. For example, two of my Japanese Akitas are registered with AKIHO (equivalent of KKA for Akita Inu), JKC, and UKC -- and because they have JKC pedigrees are eligible to be registered with AKC as well (but I haven't and won't). My other three are just dual registered AKIHO and UKC. I get both pedigrees for all of my puppies.
  • @poeticdragon -- That seems like what I'd like to do, but I'm hearing that KKA Kai are pretty different from "American" Kai (which I assume means UKC), so UKC dogs may not be accepted into the KKA. Any thoughts on that?

  • AFAIK, entry into the KKA registry is not dependant on whether the dog fits the KKA standard or not. It is whether the dog has a continuous line of KKA ancestors.


  • edited February 2013
    Disregard. Ayk got there with better information than I can provide.
  • My Kai is registered to UKC in US and to FKC here in Finland :). Ife is in "special register" which has almost the same rights as FI-register. I can show my dogs in other FCI countries if I want and get them champions there but they can't get cacibs.
  • edited February 2013
    I think the comment that tagged me was deleted, but I'll speak to Koda's size and the American lines in my opinion versus the KKA lines (Brad & Jen's) since I have both in my home.

    Koda was bred by Snowglobe Acres in Michigan. His parents were given to Koda's breeders from Classy Kennels. So yes Koda is bred off of the original American lines. Koda is large. He stands at around 23" tall and is around 52 pds. His height is a UKC fault. He is taller than the standard mind you. He's tall and thin. Koda was bred off of show lines. Most AKC or UKC people who meet Koda automatically tell me that I should've shown him. His confirmation is amazing. His angulation is perfect. He's a very regal dog by nature.

    Now is he large because of line breeding? No, I don't think that you can correlate the two. I think that Koda's size is a fluke. It just happened. None of his siblings are his size, and his sister has produced two litters now with KKA dogs. I think one of them may be Koda's size, but then again so is Goro, and Koda is noticeably larger than Akashi, Goro's KKA father.

    When I had Koda down at the OC Pet Expo with Akashi and Shakko, it was very noticeable their differences in looks and size. I joked with Jen and the crowd that he was an American Kai and they were real Japanese Kais. But let's get this straight, I don't think he was intentionally bred to be that size. Koda's mom is less than 30 pds. Who knew she would have a huge pup?

    Now I have one of Yamabushi's pups, a KKA Kai. Mika honestly looks just like Koda. Her back legs are straighter and shorter, she's smaller, but still a good size for a female. I think she is pushing almost 40 pds. My neighbor pointed out to me yesterday that she's taller. I'll have to measure to make sure, but she was at 18.5" and I think she may be more around 19.5".

    I think that our impression about American Kai vs. KKA Kai is skewed because we don't have that many KKA Kai in the US. There have been hundreds of American Kais born in the US since the 1990's. Brad & Jen started importing the KKA Kais only a few years ago. They are one kennel that has produced sufficiently lower numbers of Kais. Maybe we will see more of these larger Kais pop up as more breedings occur. It's not that they will be planned for, but simply that sh*t happens.

    Chose whichever kennel you would like. If you want a KKA Kai go to Yamabushi. If you want a Kai then pick from the other US breeders. For me, I'll stick with Brad & Jen's dogs because I truly adore them as people and respect them as advocates for the breed. I appreciate and support what they have done for the community. I love Koda's breeders as well, but they will not be having anymore puppies I think.

    I kind've went on a rant. lol.
  • @tjbart17 -- thanks so much for the info, that is very helpful.
  • @poeticdragon - To be clear, I wrote my post with the misguided understanding that AKC was an FCI registry. Ann corrected me, had I known what Ann posted before I made my post I would probably have written the same thing about AKC.
  • Still tho, I stand by what I wrote. I do not see how a for-profit kennel club who allows for made up breed standards has any value in the international community.
  • lmao. Let's just settle this. The standard should be the KKA standard. They are Japanese dogs. The standard should come from the preservation society in Japan.

    I think what we are seeing here is that the Kais are going to move AKC. Why? Because they will take the KKA standard. Breeders in the US have changed the Japanese standards to meet the dogs that they were breeding. This was done through UKC. Therefore that standard has been essentially made up by American breeders to meet their needs. This puts a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths, as it should. The standard was changed so they could show the US Kais and win. I don't think anyone argues that.

    The Akita (JA) is now registering with UKC because the UKC is working with them on their standard that meets the Japanese standard. This is working because the AKIHO group is respecting the Japanese standard.

    This history is not the same with the Kais. The UKC standard is a joke that was made up of just a couple of people without any regard to the Japanese standard.

    Our opinions on the groups amongst breeds is going to differ. For us Kai people, we have to move AKC in order to preserve the breed with the KKA standard. For Japanese Akitas, they will move UKC and preserve the Japanese standard. Both groups are arguing for the same outcome, breed preservation, but due to politics one has to go with AKC and one has chosen to begin with UKC.
  • My understanding is that the AKC-FSS is using the FCI standard which parallels the JKC standard, not the KKA standard?

    The AKC standard could theoretically be changed to the KKA standard after a Kai parent breed club comes into power and submits a standard change. The people in the Kai parent breed club would have to be pro-KKA.
  • @ayk The AKC standard can be changed. The UKC one can't because the breed club in charge of the standard will not allow for it. It would be the only hope we have of bringing over the KKA standard and raising awareness outside of this forum.
  • You could also make a stand-alone KKA branch club in the U.S. :-)
  • edited February 2013
    where KKA = "Kai Ken of America" !!!! *cough (Brad) cough*

    EDIT: Side note -- I see what they mean now when they say that discussion of the different registries can get heated... I hate to have started it, but you guys have really clarified the issue! In hindsight I may have chosen differently, but I already put down a deposit on a UKC Kai... and it's going to be the cutest puppy EVER!!!
  • Can I ask what breeder?
  • My Kai are KKA and I am also reg'd them AKC-FSS so that I can be the change I hope to see in the world ;) :P ...or at least so the kai can get their numbers up enough that others can be the change (go to the KKA standard in AKC) since I dont show or breed. The Kai people need to band together so the AKC- recognized breed club forms up right though, so many of us are ready to help but know nothing about what needs doing to get this done right. leadership is needed...
  • @tjbart17 Thanks for being so awesome :)
  • @tjbart 17 -- Classy Kennel. Marian really seemed to know what she was talking about, and she seemed pretty sincere about preserving the breed standard... perhaps there are some UKC breeders on the same page as KKA advocates?
  • edited February 2013
    I'm just going to say it. Marian is preserving the UKC standards that she setup. They are not the Japanese standards. Marian has never been to Japan to meet any Kais. She has dogs that are from the original imports (not given to her originally). She is the reason why we have to get away from UKC. Since you brought the subject up, I figured that I'd give you what you asked for and that's the difference. The difference is Marian without any regard to the Japanese standard created the UKC standard to fit her needs for showing.

    I laugh at her comment about preserving the breed. No it angers me that she said that.
  • I don't doubt that Marian really seems to know what she's talking about as she's a UKC judge and know how organizations work; however, her name isn't one that comes to my mind as preserving the KKA standard.

    She would have to abandon the showing of creams and wean herself off of the breeding of creams to convince me that she's started a new path.

    There are some other UKC breeders who have embraced KKA dogs and openly say they want to follow the KKA standard. Though it'll take time to merge the existing UKC dogs and newer KKA dogs to meet the KKA standard, those breeders are on the right path.

  • Well in that case, I hope this thread goes a long way into helping correct the problem... if KKA advocates don't speak up about the issue and put a little pressure on the opposition, then they're not going to see much improvement. ESPECIALLY since that opposition has been in the business for a much longer period of time than KKA breeders like Yamabushi.
  • Also, as soon as I get my Kai I'll post some pics so you all can weigh in on how it holds up to KKA standards.
  • Maybe I'm reading the tone wrong, but you seem to be blaming the wrong people for your decision. Honestly, I was surprised at how fast you jumped on the pup after introducing yourself as an analyst and slow to make a big decision. :-(



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