@rjanssen86 - no one is attacking your decision but you asked about the difference in standard and the answer was given to you straight. Looking at the particular pairing used for the breeding (has it been planned yet?) will give you a much better idea of how well pups may fit within the KKA standard. Reading the sources on the KKA and UKC standard yourself would have yielded the information as to how they differ.
It would also behoove you to understand that this was not a thread to engage in politics, nor was it intended to denigrate or elevate any particular U.S. based kai breeder. The most important thing in choosing a breeder is knowing that they're responsible (health, temperament, socialization) and being personally comfortable with that breeder. Classy seems to have filled that criteria for you. If the adherence to the KKA standard was very important to you then perhaps you want to rethink your decision. All that @tjbart17 and @ayk have done is provided information that is helpful for anyone looking to get a U.S. based kai bred to the KKA standard.
I don't think it's appropriate to take a derisive tone (no matter how slight) towards those who are sincerely filling in background info regarding an assertion you made.
@ayk -- Oh no, I definitely don't mean to blame anyone! Marian was pretty clear about her breeding practices in my discussions with her, and she seems to put a lot of effort into her puppies. As far as that's concerned, there are absolutely no issues. I'm completely happy with my decision. And I definitely did NOT make the decision to get a Kai and then call someone up and put a down payment down the same day. Never something I would do. I've been browsing through the Nihonken forums for quite awhile now.
@violet_in_seville, I in no way intended to sound derisive, particularly since you all have been SO helpful, so if I did, I sincerely apologize. I just realized through the course of this thread that there are some pretty strong feelings out there about this topic, and I thought it might be a good idea in the future to have the differences between different registries clearly articulated, at which point people can choose for themselves what best suits them.
Again, I apologize if I sounded derisive. I never intended to offend, and you all have been very helpful.
After reading all this I just had a look at some UKC Kais that I found on the net, hmmmmm... . I have never seen such colors or sizes on Kais here in Japan.
@rjanssen89 I didn't have a long look but saw cream and also a red (like a Shiba) which i I have never seen before. I have heard of a cream Kai popping up once in a while but I am sure it can't be shown in Japan. Some of the dogs just looked too big and their torsos too long? All the Kais I have seen have a very compact look about them and in some of the pictures I saw the dogs looked to elongated??
@jeffnkazuko The comment about Koda being big before made me really politically correct. Koda is large because of a fluke.
But there are other attributes about him that don't fit Kais. His back legs are angulated. Kais and Shibas that I normally see don't have this angulation. His legs are long to show this off.
Basically he was bred to look good in a show ring. But with breeding like that, you take away from how a Kai would look without a breeder choosing specific traits for showing. The rear angulation and body are not what you would see of a KKA Kai.
This is a poor picture but will show you what I'm talking about.
Again, here's another poor picture. I'm at work, and I don't have access to my photos. But here's one of Mika. She's compact and strong. Rear angulation is straighter. She's a KKA Kai all the way.
@rjanssen86 I'm a bit confused like Ann. Why did you post this thread when you had already put a deposit down on a dog? What were you trying to accomplish? It sounded like you wanted to make an educated decision, but that was a falsehood because you had already decided.
Honestly, I love Koda. He's a Classy prodigy and my soulmate. I would never trade him in for the world, but back then getting a Classy dog was all we knew. Now that I'm more educated and involved in the community, I won't make that same "mistake".
I started the thread more as an after thought, really... I had NO idea there was as much if a difference as there seems to be... Call it ignorance? At any rate, I'm glad I asked the question, but I'm sure that my Classy Kai will end up being my doggy soulmate just like Koda is yours... Just as should be true for every Kai baby out there.
@rjanssen86 Well since you seem so supportive about breed preservation. Maybe you could mention to Marian that she should have the UKC standards changed to the "real" Kai standards, the KKA standards, and should start breading for them. ha ha ha ha. Oh I crack me up.
The FCI Kai standard describes the breed as: “A medium-sized dog, well balanced, sturdily built, muscles well developed. The dog has the characteristics of a dog living in mountainous districts of Japan. Limbs strong and hocks remarkably developed.” The are three recognized breed colors, all brindle: aka-tora (red), chu-tora (medium), and kuro-tora (black), with aka-tora being the rarest of the three variations. There is a recessive gene in the breed which occasionally produces non-standard white (or cream) colored Kai. Most Kai have dark spots on their tongues.Like all the Nihon Ken, the Kai has a double coat made up of protective coarse outer guard hairs, and a fine thick undercoat that is shed seasonally.
The JKC, Nippo, and KKA offer differing standards for the breed, with the Kai Ken Aigokai having the largest variation in size and type. The KKA standard recognizes Kai between 40-50cm, JKC 47-53cm for dogs, 42-48 for bitches, NIPPO 47-55cm for dogs, 44-52cm for bitches (a special allowance of 2cm under the NIPPO 'medium' standard has been made for the breed), FCI has dogs at 50-56cm, bitches at 45-51cm.
The Kai as a breed is intelligent, athletic, and alert, with a strong desire to hunt. Like most Nihon Ken the Kai is an independent thinker. Many are very attached to their owners, and they can make excellent companions for the individual prepared to give them the attention and exercize they require. They can be territorial, and make reasonable watch dogs, but are not by nature guard dogs or protection dogs. They have shown the ability to be quick learners, with some active in Japan as search and rescue dogs. They are a rare breed even in their native country with an estimated population of around 12,000-14,000, and yearly registrations of between 900 and 1,100, (all registries combined). The main breed registry is run by the Kai Ken Aigokai.
The brindle coat of the Kai has given rise to his nickname as the “Tora” (meaning “Tiger”) dog. All brindle colors are equally acceptable. Puppies are usually born with black fuzzy coats, though some are born with brindle already showing. The brindle bars emerge as the straight adult coat comes in, but they may not be fully apparent until the dog is as old as five years of age. A well-defined brindle is preferred; however, the worthiness of a dog should not be judged on the quality of its brindle pattern alone. Some dogs never brindle a lot and many lose the majority of their brindle when they blow coat. Some white is allowed on the legs, but never above the knees on the forelegs or the hock joint on the rear legs. Some white is allowed on the forechest, between the front legs and on the belly but white should never blend up into the body coat.
Disqualification: Albinism.
HEIGHT & WEIGHT
Desirable height, measured at the withers, ranges from 18½ to 22 inches for males, and 17½ to 20 inches for females. Weight ranges from 25 to 55 pounds.
Faults: Dogs more than a half inch over or under these limits; obese dogs.
HIND LEGS - The rear legs have heavy bone and are moderately well angulated at stifle and hock joints. The upper thigh is long and the lower thigh is short. The hocks are tough, elastic and well let down. Viewed from the rear, the rear pasterns should be parallel to each other; from the side, they should be perpendicular to the ground.
FEET
The feet are of medium size, round in shape, well-knuckled up, with thick strong pads. Nails should be hard and black in color. Dewclaws may be removed.
Faults: Splay feet; poorly cushioned pads
If you do the conversion, 40-50 cm is about 15.75-19.7 inches, which is significantly smaller than the UKC standard. I don't know what purpose it serves for the standards that dewclaws may be removed. In fact removing the front dew claws is disadvantageous for hunting dogs as has been expressed. The note about the white allowed is also confusing. From all I can see about the KKA standard this is not allowed and I'm not sure why it would/should be allowed in the UKC standard.
@tjbart17 -- I'd never be so naive to suggest to someone who takes their breed very seriously that they don't breed to the "real" standard... I know a pointless argument when I see one. Particularly since I have much less experience with the Kai than, well... just about anyone. However, I AM just one of those people that will cross my fingers and hope that the whole mess sorts itself out one way or another... The last thing Nihonken needs is another JA/AA situation.
@tjbart17, @ayk and reds? really? how did she even find those recessive genes to breed them and kais are so cute, to me, because of the brindle and these are solid color dogs? I don't know if you know but what website of hers are you looking at? Im...aghast.
The last thing Nihonken needs is another JA/AA situation
It seems like we have one don't we within this conversation.
My point was a joke, but it also speaks to your posting this thread. If you don't feel comfortable speaking to your breeder about an issue that you did feel comfortable bringing up with us and you seemed passionate about, then that's an issue if you are looking for a breeder you are comfortable with.
Lord knows I'm comfortable having this conversation with my breeder on the thread even if we don't see eye to eye on everything.
I honestly usually don't engage in these types of conversations. I'm good at ignoring threads. But this is the line that trapped me into the conversation and made me post.
I guess what's most important to me is historic preservation... I think the Nihonken in the US ought to be bred as closely to the traditional, Japanese standard as possible. Intuition says this is more likely to be the case with KKA, but I've also heard that breed preservation is a top priority of UKC breeders as well.
Let's go over this. You've been given Japanese standards. You know that Marian created the UKC standards (alone and without collaborating with or talking to the other UKC breeders because they won't speak to each other). But all the while you had already purchased a puppy.
In conclusion, historic preservation is not that important in your decision to purchase a puppy.
@tjbart17 -- one important part to remember is that I had no idea prior to this thread that there were Kai breeders out there who did NOT breed to the Japanese standard. Did not even think it was an option. So then today, presented with the option, of course I would agree that it's an important thing to look for! But I hope you can understand where I'm coming from. Historic preservation really is important... I just assumed that Classy was on the same page as the community since they were recommended to me as a good option by a KKA breeder.
@rjanssen86 - out of curiosity, who was the KKA breeder? From what I know, the only KKA registered breeder outside Japan is Yamabushi. European show lines are largely derived from Classy (someone correct me if I'm wrong). If she has not been to Japan herself I'd be surprised that a Japanese breeder would know who she is, never,ind recommend her.
At any rate, I would ask her why she's doing a particular pairing and judge for yourself how well you think they conform to the KKA standard if that's something you really value. I've linked you to the standards and as you can see, they're very different. I would also ask about the particular lines used to see how often (if they have), thrown a cream or non-brindle. It shouldn't be happening frequently if they're monitoring and planning their breedings carefully. I would also see if this is an outcross breeding (you should get a five generation pedigree at least, more if possible). My understanding was that for a while the kai ken in the U.S. were being threatened with a genetic bottleneck. Even if adherence to the KKA standard is not a big priority for you, genetic diversity should be. These are all questions you can and should be asking of ANY breeder (not just kai ken).
I didn't realize there was only one KKA breeder in the US or I wouldn't have mentioned it, didn't want to draw attention to someone who seems to be really nice about everything... I haven't asked Marian yet, how often her lines throw creams, but she told me that the two planned breedings she has for 2013 are (phonetically) "yum yum" x "Rio" and "chai tai" x "toro" obviously nicknames, but hopefully it's still helpful.
@ayk, @tjbart17 - interesting. Is it a loophole in the standard or one deliberately worded that way? I did not realize that the broader wording in the UKC standard meant that there were folks showing creams!
@violet_in_seville: it also seems strange that the UKC standards state that white shouldn't blend up into the coat, but then somehow condones light colored Kai... Even more so that it insinuates (but doesn't say exactly) that puppies are born either all black, or slightly brindle already, and again... Creams still (apparently) show. And, according to UKC, all Kai are brindled, so where does that leave room for cream Kai? My shiba is cream, not something the breeder intended, but hey... It happens. Still, it's a fault... Not something that should be shown and bred as an enhanced standard, as though there is such a thing.
Does anyone know if there are cream Kai in Japan? If so, what is the consensus among the Japanese on it? Not denying that they're cute, but its non-standard, and just like my shiba, shouldn't be bred...
The showing of the creams was deliberate. I won't get into all the debate here. To me the most important aspect of the kai breeding program should be preservation of the breed true to the Japanese standard. I have both an American bred kai and a KKA kai (thanks again Brad and Jen). I have shown my American Bred kai to a Japanese judge (Nippo) and liked his honest feedback on my girl. She has her faults (all dogs have them), but she had some traits that the Japanese judge really liked. The KKA imports have proved to be very valuable to bringing some much needed genetic diversity to the already extremely narrow North American gene pool. Due to bad blood between alot of the breeders, the kai was headed down a very bad path.
Well, I for one am really glad that there's hope now. I'd have never known what I lost out on if it hadn't been for this forum... Which probably never would've happened without those breeders who got into the business to diversify the American gene pool. So for that, thank you to you breeders reading this who had a hand, and if I can ever help out in any way, I'd be more than happy to do so.
This puts me in a really awkward situation because I'd seriously consider forfeiting my deposit except for the fact that the kennel would only end up with an essentially unearned $200 and get another deposit from someone else... The best I can think to do is help educate people on the breed standard... Which you guys are already doing a really great job, by the way.
Yes, we are the only KKA kennel outside of Japan right now. Hopefully there will be others soon.
We recommend all the Kai breeders in the USA to people when they contact us. We don't play favorites and we don't horde inquiries. We want people to do their own research and purchase a puppy from the kennel they are most comfortable with. We realize we are not perfect for everyone.
We have a Classy Kai too. He's not a breeding dog but he's handsome and good with us. He also meets the KKA standard.
Also WRT to creams in Japan, yes they are produced from time to time but cannot be registered.
As for creams in UKC, they aren't just shown there they are also champions. There are cream Kai UKC champions... So wrap your mind around that one. When we told that to one oh our KKA mentors while in Japan he was shocked.
@rjanssen86 - you can't think in terms of whether or not a breeder will get an unearned deposit. Are you comfortable with the breeder? Do you feel like you could ask them anything and get an honest answer every time? Do you think they'd be a good support for the life of the dog? Are you comfortable with their goals for their breeding program? Will they be there as a resource for your questions on health, behavior, training, genetics?
If you're interested in knowing more about the breed, the breed history, will they be able to tell you that information accurately? If for you, fidelity to the standard as it is in Japan, and historic preservation is part of being a responsible breeder, then I think you have to re-evaluate your decision. If you feel uncomfortable asking about the breeding program, you should reevaluate. Again, I stress that these are the sorts of questions one should be able to ask a breeder for any breed.
This forum is a great resource but in my opinion your breeder should still be your first source for any questions you may have. For example my breeder has been my primary source of knowledge re: the shiba standard (including how AKC and NIPPO differ, and where AKC fails to adhere to the standard in Japan properly). When we were just visiting (before we committed to getting a dog) he went into detail about training resources, behavior to watch out for, the traits of his lines, etc. It was obvious that his knowledge was shared because he was so passionate that he couldn't help it. This has been a trait in breeders I've met, from whom I'd be comfortable getting a dog. At the time I got my first dog from him he had been a breeder for less than 5 years. To this day he checks in about the pups, sends updates about his other dogs (both those in his breeding program and those placed as companion dogs). I'm really of the mind that choosing the breeder is also about the future relationship you'll have with them. For some, that level of involvement and the very stringent contract would be a deterrent. For us, it was exactly what we wanted. You need to choose what will suit your needs.
Whatever you do, I wish you the best.
Qualifier: I'm not currently involved with kai ken and am barely passingly familiar with the politics of that world. I am however a passionate advocate of making an informed decision
Comments
It would also behoove you to understand that this was not a thread to engage in politics, nor was it intended to denigrate or elevate any particular U.S. based kai breeder. The most important thing in choosing a breeder is knowing that they're responsible (health, temperament, socialization) and being personally comfortable with that breeder. Classy seems to have filled that criteria for you. If the adherence to the KKA standard was very important to you then perhaps you want to rethink your decision. All that @tjbart17 and @ayk have done is provided information that is helpful for anyone looking to get a U.S. based kai bred to the KKA standard.
I don't think it's appropriate to take a derisive tone (no matter how slight) towards those who are sincerely filling in background info regarding an assertion you made.
[edited for syntax and typos]
@violet_in_seville, I in no way intended to sound derisive, particularly since you all have been SO helpful, so if I did, I sincerely apologize. I just realized through the course of this thread that there are some pretty strong feelings out there about this topic, and I thought it might be a good idea in the future to have the differences between different registries clearly articulated, at which point people can choose for themselves what best suits them.
Again, I apologize if I sounded derisive. I never intended to offend, and you all have been very helpful.
@jeffnkazuko The comment about Koda being big before made me really politically correct. Koda is large because of a fluke.
But there are other attributes about him that don't fit Kais. His back legs are angulated. Kais and Shibas that I normally see don't have this angulation. His legs are long to show this off.
Basically he was bred to look good in a show ring. But with breeding like that, you take away from how a Kai would look without a breeder choosing specific traits for showing. The rear angulation and body are not what you would see of a KKA Kai.
This is a poor picture but will show you what I'm talking about.
Again, here's another poor picture. I'm at work, and I don't have access to my photos. But here's one of Mika. She's compact and strong. Rear angulation is straighter. She's a KKA Kai all the way.
@rjanssen86 I'm a bit confused like Ann. Why did you post this thread when you had already put a deposit down on a dog? What were you trying to accomplish? It sounded like you wanted to make an educated decision, but that was a falsehood because you had already decided.
Honestly, I love Koda. He's a Classy prodigy and my soulmate. I would never trade him in for the world, but back then getting a Classy dog was all we knew. Now that I'm more educated and involved in the community, I won't make that same "mistake".
Here is a good breakdown of the standard for kai in Japan (taken from @thewalrus's blog).
http://nihonken.blogspot.com/p/kai.html
The FCI Kai standard describes the breed as: “A medium-sized dog, well balanced, sturdily built, muscles well developed. The dog has the characteristics of a dog living in mountainous districts of Japan. Limbs strong and hocks remarkably developed.” The are three recognized breed colors, all brindle: aka-tora (red), chu-tora (medium), and kuro-tora (black), with aka-tora being the rarest of the three variations. There is a recessive gene in the breed which occasionally produces non-standard white (or cream) colored Kai. Most Kai have dark spots on their tongues.Like all the Nihon Ken, the Kai has a double coat made up of protective coarse outer guard hairs, and a fine thick undercoat that is shed seasonally.
The JKC, Nippo, and KKA offer differing standards for the breed, with the Kai Ken Aigokai having the largest variation in size and type. The KKA standard recognizes Kai between 40-50cm, JKC 47-53cm for dogs, 42-48 for bitches, NIPPO 47-55cm for dogs, 44-52cm for bitches (a special allowance of 2cm under the NIPPO 'medium' standard has been made for the breed), FCI has dogs at 50-56cm, bitches at 45-51cm.
The Kai as a breed is intelligent, athletic, and alert, with a strong desire to hunt. Like most Nihon Ken the Kai is an independent thinker. Many are very attached to their owners, and they can make excellent companions for the individual prepared to give them the attention and exercize they require. They can be territorial, and make reasonable watch dogs, but are not by nature guard dogs or protection dogs. They have shown the ability to be quick learners, with some active in Japan as search and rescue dogs. They are a rare breed even in their native country with an estimated population of around 12,000-14,000, and yearly registrations of between 900 and 1,100, (all registries combined). The main breed registry is run by the Kai Ken Aigokai.
Taken from the UKC standard page.
http://www.ukcdogs.com/Web.nsf/Breeds/NorthernBreed/Kai07012008
COLOR
The brindle coat of the Kai has given rise to his nickname as the “Tora” (meaning “Tiger”) dog. All brindle colors are equally acceptable. Puppies are usually born with black fuzzy coats, though some are born with brindle already showing. The brindle bars emerge as the straight adult coat comes in, but they may not be fully apparent until the dog is as old as five years of age. A well-defined brindle is preferred; however, the worthiness of a dog should not be judged on the quality of its brindle pattern alone. Some dogs never brindle a lot and many lose the majority of their brindle when they blow coat. Some white is allowed on the legs, but never above the knees on the forelegs or the hock joint on the rear legs. Some white is allowed on the forechest, between the front legs and on the belly but white should never blend up into the body coat.
Disqualification: Albinism.
HEIGHT & WEIGHT
Desirable height, measured at the withers, ranges from 18½ to 22 inches for males, and 17½ to 20 inches for females. Weight ranges from 25 to 55 pounds.
Faults: Dogs more than a half inch over or under these limits; obese dogs.
HIND LEGS - The rear legs have heavy bone and are moderately well angulated at stifle and hock joints. The upper thigh is long and the lower thigh is short. The hocks are tough, elastic and well let down. Viewed from the rear, the rear pasterns should be parallel to each other; from the side, they should be perpendicular to the ground.
FEET
The feet are of medium size, round in shape, well-knuckled up, with thick strong pads. Nails should be hard and black in color. Dewclaws may be removed.
Faults: Splay feet; poorly cushioned pads
If you do the conversion, 40-50 cm is about 15.75-19.7 inches, which is significantly smaller than the UKC standard. I don't know what purpose it serves for the standards that dewclaws may be removed. In fact removing the front dew claws is disadvantageous for hunting dogs as has been expressed. The note about the white allowed is also confusing. From all I can see about the KKA standard this is not allowed and I'm not sure why it would/should be allowed in the UKC standard.
My point was a joke, but it also speaks to your posting this thread. If you don't feel comfortable speaking to your breeder about an issue that you did feel comfortable bringing up with us and you seemed passionate about, then that's an issue if you are looking for a breeder you are comfortable with.
Lord knows I'm comfortable having this conversation with my breeder on the thread even if we don't see eye to eye on everything.
I honestly usually don't engage in these types of conversations. I'm good at ignoring threads. But this is the line that trapped me into the conversation and made me post. Let's go over this. You've been given Japanese standards. You know that Marian created the UKC standards (alone and without collaborating with or talking to the other UKC breeders because they won't speak to each other). But all the while you had already purchased a puppy.
In conclusion, historic preservation is not that important in your decision to purchase a puppy.
This was from back in the day when I stuck up for Marian.
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/7243/red-kai/p1
edited for typos.
At any rate, I would ask her why she's doing a particular pairing and judge for yourself how well you think they conform to the KKA standard if that's something you really value. I've linked you to the standards and as you can see, they're very different. I would also ask about the particular lines used to see how often (if they have), thrown a cream or non-brindle. It shouldn't be happening frequently if they're monitoring and planning their breedings carefully. I would also see if this is an outcross breeding (you should get a five generation pedigree at least, more if possible). My understanding was that for a while the kai ken in the U.S. were being threatened with a genetic bottleneck. Even if adherence to the KKA standard is not a big priority for you, genetic diversity should be. These are all questions you can and should be asking of ANY breeder (not just kai ken).
Does anyone know if there are cream Kai in Japan? If so, what is the consensus among the Japanese on it? Not denying that they're cute, but its non-standard, and just like my shiba, shouldn't be bred...
It's just that when we support breeders monetarily to continue these practices then they will never change.
We recommend all the Kai breeders in the USA to people when they contact us. We don't play favorites and we don't horde inquiries. We want people to do their own research and purchase a puppy from the kennel they are most comfortable with. We realize we are not perfect for everyone.
We have a Classy Kai too. He's not a breeding dog but he's handsome and good with us. He also meets the KKA standard.
As for creams in UKC, they aren't just shown there they are also champions. There are cream Kai UKC champions... So wrap your mind around that one. When we told that to one oh our KKA mentors while in Japan he was shocked.
If you're interested in knowing more about the breed, the breed history, will they be able to tell you that information accurately? If for you, fidelity to the standard as it is in Japan, and historic preservation is part of being a responsible breeder, then I think you have to re-evaluate your decision. If you feel uncomfortable asking about the breeding program, you should reevaluate. Again, I stress that these are the sorts of questions one should be able to ask a breeder for any breed.
This forum is a great resource but in my opinion your breeder should still be your first source for any questions you may have. For example my breeder has been my primary source of knowledge re: the shiba standard (including how AKC and NIPPO differ, and where AKC fails to adhere to the standard in Japan properly). When we were just visiting (before we committed to getting a dog) he went into detail about training resources, behavior to watch out for, the traits of his lines, etc. It was obvious that his knowledge was shared because he was so passionate that he couldn't help it. This has been a trait in breeders I've met, from whom I'd be comfortable getting a dog. At the time I got my first dog from him he had been a breeder for less than 5 years. To this day he checks in about the pups, sends updates about his other dogs (both those in his breeding program and those placed as companion dogs). I'm really of the mind that choosing the breeder is also about the future relationship you'll have with them. For some, that level of involvement and the very stringent contract would be a deterrent. For us, it was exactly what we wanted. You need to choose what will suit your needs.
Whatever you do, I wish you the best.
Qualifier: I'm not currently involved with kai ken and am barely passingly familiar with the politics of that world. I am however a passionate advocate of making an informed decision