#violet_in_seville: I really appreciate your comments and will address them more fully in the morning, when I have more time to invest (I live on the East Coast, and have to work at 5AM). I've spent many hours that I should have been sleeping deliberating this topic, because I do feel that it's worth the mental effort. Once again, I appreciate all the insight that this forum has provided today.
@rjanssen86 I don't know where on the east coast you are but we have several different Kais out here. If youre in the va area you're welcome to meet my girl though it's very anticlimatic.
I think violet in Seville hit it on the head that you want to be comfortable with your breeder whoever they may be, in raising any issues and feeling free to contact them for anything. The dogs life will be long and troubles (whatever they may be, the need to rehome due to situation change, behaviors, etc...) Will happen so its great to have them as a resource. I know I've talked to brad and Jen (yamabushi) several times regarding vaccinations and chips, tempermants, and just to check in because they care about Sachi as much as I do.
All of that being said all the litters for this year, of yamabushi or suteishii (sjp051993) I believe are happening this fall given when all the mothers had their last litters (dont quote me on this). If you are still considering other breeders it might be worth it to go visit them and meet the "parents", it might be worth it for Classy as well.
I got my girl sight unseen from yamabushi but they were happy to take my incredibly long phone call as I asked about their operation and her and sent me videos and pictures and a million emails. Now looking at getting a second Kai I want personalitys to mesh so driving the 7+ hours out to Suteishii is worth it just for a meet, but my circumstances are different from yours as are what I look for (i prefer adult dogs over puppies...on that note Don is an adult male looking for a hone, so is Hiro if you would consider an adult. My first priorities with any dog is that they are health and happy or have the ability to be-I write this as my girl lays down on my leg to settle in for the night so I can't turn over- them comes everything else ) etc.
All politics aside, and being recent to the kai community I was unaware of until today, go with your gut and know that you have time and options yet.
Marian was pretty clear about her breeding practices in my discussions with her, and she seems to put a lot of effort into her puppies.
My Ife is from Marian and I can't recommend her for anyone! When I got Ife she was afraid of human hand and our first month went to get her used to touching. And Marian even accused that I have beaten Ife and that's why she is so shy.
I have showed KKA and UKC Kai in FCI shows. KKA Kai is champion, UKC not. Many judges have said to me that Ife don't remind them from Kai at all. So maybe the KKA fits better to FCI standard than the UKC.
@mirkam - really sorry to hear that. It's definitely not the relationship you would want with your breeder and I recall some of your posts years ago talking about your socialization with Ife.
If you don't mind my asking, are her kais house raised or kennel raised? I feel like both her site, and some comments here dance around the issue and it's hard to discern. It seems like everyone talks about socialization but you can only ascertain that with a visit to the breeder themselves.
@MirkaM - I'm really sorry to hear about your experience with Marian accusing you of beating Ife. Considering that she herself got accused of beating an adult that she re-homed a few years ago (dog probably had the typical rough adjustment period for a Kai), that's really low of her.
@violet_in_seville I woudn't say that we have "show lines" in Europe... But yeah, most of our breeding dogs are from Marian. The first ones which were brought to Hungary in 2004, then to France in 2005 (if I remember right) and then Ife to me on 2009. There has only been two out-breedings with Japanese lines and all other litters are out of those same US-lines.
@Hinata23 It isn't that simple. The economy is in recession and people don't have money to import. It cost about 3000-5000 euros (3900-6500$) to import puppy here and Kai isn't yet so popular breed that there would be enough interested people.
"It seems like everyone talks about socialization but you can only ascertain that with a visit to the breeder themselves."
@ Violet that's a really good point! …..
Something to keep in mind, there are varying factors to behavioral propensities and honestly some lines of dogs are just more reactive and or stress prone (regardless of breed). Much of that is neurological.
What a breeder does to remediate that through environmental enrichment and handling is critical. The earlier in life the better for neurologically disadvantaged animals. For any animal being enriched properly is a big big plus in later development when it enters a new environment…..with the caveat, sometimes all the enrichment in world will not overcome prominent neurological "mental" issues that crop up in a stagnate population.
As I am sure it has been iterated and reiterated ad nauseaum in previous threads …..A quality breeder will look at temperaments of their dogs being open to improvements beyond a mere show stack, reaching out for some diversity. It takes a lot of time and and work in multiple ways to get balanced qualities in any kennel.
So again, one will see evidence of a breeders efforts once one visits animals in their care (again regardless of breed) AND also those animals that have been placed elsewhere too.
Looking around at siblings, adults, and other similar relations, plus the activities that have been completed with them is a way to also ascertain what one may expect later. It will tell a person much more than marketing or phone chats where a breeder is talking the talk. As warning, "Kennel blindness" is a problem in breeders across all breeds, but not always obvious upon initial meeting.
Basically when one goes into to a kennel to view one needs to have a pretty darned good idea what the breed is about and what one will need to do behaviorally for what is seen.
Otherwise one is going to get wrapped in a package of buyers remorse when expectations don't meet assumptions as the dog develops. I think that is the biggest thing getting "properly educated" in a breed can prevent, even if one has had many dogs in their lives. The process starts over with each animal intended to be brought home.
@violet_in_seville I believe they are raised in kennels. At least that's what Marian told me when I was looking to her for a dog four years ago. That actually was one of the main reasons why I didn't get a dog from her and chose a breeder who raised the pups in their home with their two children. I love that both Koda and Mika were raised in the home during those first two months. I am convinced that this can make all the difference in a Kai's temperament.
It also matters on what types of questions you ask a breeder. When I got Koda I was working at a children's mental health organization. I wanted a dog that I could certify as a therapy dog or service dog. One that could come to work with me and assist therapists in treating PTSD. So my questions were based around that. Koda's breeder stood out for many reasons as being the one that was most probable at the time to breed a puppy that could handle, and like, this type of environment. I got exactly what I asked for, and she picked out just the right puppy for me. Koda is amazing with children and autistic children especially. I'll admit that I get teary eyed sometimes when I see him calm a child. He's such a natural.
Now getting Mika, my priorities changed. I just wanted a little girl. Someone to have fun with who would be active and social. I had already visited Brad and Jen, and met most of their dogs, so I didn't ask any questions. I felt like they had a good understanding of who I am and my lifestyle, and they gave me the perfect little girl. I am just so in love with her little monsterness. She is perfect for Koda, and has helped his "depression" a lot.
@Mirka@ayk I've known what Marian did to Mirka for some time now. I'm appalled that she did that to you. I know how it made you feel, and it was well just abusive to do to someone else.
I had the pleasure of meeting another Kai owner a couple of years ago who lived in the Bay Area. I had been asked by a breeder to visit her because she was having a difficult time transitioning a Kai puppy into her home. She had two older dogs, one of which was a 7 year old Kai male. This was actually her third Kai.
When I got to Suzanne's home, I quickly realized that it wasn't the puppy so much as the added stress to an environment that was already stressed with her older Kai Jake. Jake was a dog from Classy Kennels. He was so wiley that he couldn't leave the property. I had heard about Kais like these, mostly from the yahoo group when one would pop up to be re-homed or put down. Jake was fearful and aggressive. I can't explain how he acted, but he was Suzanne's heart. She loved him, and he was lucky to have such an understanding owner.
When I asked Suzanne about Jake and whether or not she had ever reached out to Marian about him, she said that she had on two occasions. One was to ask why his ears had never gone up. Marian's response was that she had never bred a Kai whose ears had not gone up and therefore Suzanne must've hurt him. When Suzanne asked her about Jake's fear and inability to settle down (this dog seriously lived every moment with an anxiety attack), Marian accused her of beating Jake.
Suzanne and I became very close, penpals who would speak on the phone frequently. She passed away about a year later from cancer. Her Kai puppy was taken back by her breeder. Jake couldn't handle hospice workers in Suzanne's home and had to be put down because he attacked one. Suzanne's last days were filled with the memory of having to put him down. I know she wanted me to take him, but I just couldn't. You can't re-home a Kai like that unless it's to someone who has a farm where he can go and never leave or be around other animals.
@rjanssen86 Stressed mothers can pass on their stress and other temperaments to their puppies... (If I'm correct). If the mother is under socialized the pups will pick up on her discomfort, fear, and stress.
it angers me incredibly that Marian is telling her pups adopters that it must be because of abuse. It is the quickest way to shut someone up or from complaining further. Let alone when it is coming from your breeder, who "knows" you and entrusted you with one of their dogs, it is a breech of faith.
With Sachi at the beginning I would get questions while we were getting her used to walking with me and in my old neighborhood as to what shelter I got her from and did I know how she had been abused. It floored me when I told people she was never abused it was just the way she was for now, that she just needed some more socialization in the city and they would look at me like "yeah right" or actually in a few instances tell me I was doing it then and then continually avoid me while we walked. If my breeder or anyone I knew accused me of that I don't know how I would face them or the community again. Especially when it becomes a your word versus theirs battle. She is a UKC judge and produced these "prodigy" puppies, how does one stand up to that?
Her response to questions is to accuse people of beatings seems very aggressive and defensive. Jake's ears didn't come up, either its a fluke and then no one is held accountable, or it has happened before and she is covering her tracks about bad repeat breedings. Either way, and I say this knowing nothing of Marian nor her practices, just what I got from her kennel and from here it raises red flags for me.
@rjanssen86 In Maumee Ohio this year in May is the Nippo Classic Dog show, I know alot of people are coming in for it, including some breeders. Perhaps you might want to check it out as many members of the NK community, both on this forum and outside of it will converge, some to show their dogs, others to just have spectator dogs there. It would be an opportunity to see whose pups do what and talk to people about their experiences. the link is here: http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/comment/158341#Comment_158341
@ cdenney : A great many people in ignorance think a shy or fearful dog has been abused when that simply is not the case. So frustrating when working with shy dogs, it causes so much embarrassment for those who are trying to help their dogs. And of course every guy on the street is a self proclaimed expert if they have ever owned a dog. So glad you didn't give up.
@ Tjbart & MirkaM: I also wonder if this breeder is equally as ignorant in terms of behavior of canines, on top of just being mean? If that is the case it speaks for itself. (Defense mechanism...denial ....easier to pass off on someone else than do something about it when they just do not have any answers.) It is sad this is her assumption of others.
@hinata: what you mention about stressed dams…this is something that is brought up in behaviorist circles. There is a lot that goes on that influences behavior in puppies and there are strong indications that it is indeed true because of the hormones released in the milk of the dam. ( I don't have refs for this at the moment, but it's not BS)
Well at least the issues are aired….I hope that anyone will consider it wisely when researching the purchase of a Kai.
@staticnfuzz me too! I love my girl and it has been really astounding to just see her continually open up. Even my vet who when they saw her for the first time wouldn't let me leave with out three behaviorist numbers and asked if I was sure I was ready for " a dog like this" and new how to handle one, came to me the other day and said that they (she and Sachi's favorite tech) were incredibly pleased by how she is doing and were honestly floored by her change in behavior and how far she has come in such a short time.
Still there will always be those people to overcome.
It honestly doesn't make sense to me that a mother would live in a kennel and be brought into the home to raise her puppies. I've taken in a Kai rescue who was an outside dog, and acclimating her to being indoors was stressful on her and me. It took months for her to finally calm down. I even went so far as to get her t-touch massages and acupuncture to try and calm her down.
If a female is brought into the home from the kennels with her pups, then she must be crated all the time. That's the same to me as raising a puppy in a kennel. It just seems like it would be so stressful for the mama dog.
@StaticNfuzz It's just mean, and I don't do well with mean.
@cdenney -- that NIPPO show looks like it'd be a lot of fun! I'd love to go, but I'm starting a new job in San Antonio a couple weeks before then, so I wouldn't be able to get the time off. I hope you guys who end up going take lots of pics for the forum!!
@tjbart17 -- This is all really disheartening... I really need to make a trip out to Michigan to see her facilities for myself before I follow through with getting one of her Kai.
@rjanssen86 Yes you do, and I would meet the parents and ask for health certifications.
I never met Koda's parents. I couldn't at the time because of work and financial constraints. I understand not being able to, but Koda's breeder was VERY up front with me about Koda's parent's personalities. His mom is very social and his father is not. She didn't hold anything back. She also let me speak to owners of Koda's siblings. I did a lot of research and spent a lot of time talking to her.
I knew what I was getting or could get from Koda's lines. I don't think you know, and honestly I don't think that you could handle a Jake.
Yeah I've been following Goro's parents since they were imported as pups. I knew what they were like temperament-wise, how well they were socialized, how they played, who was goofy, and who was loving. I watched them grow up. I can see Akashi and Ayu in Goro! I know everyone can't have this experience, but I guess this is why we all love the Yamabushi breeders and their dogs.
I know @tjbart17 knew she wanted a Ritsu and Kumi puppy from the time they were pups as well. So when a litter came around, it was a no brainer!
@Hinata23 I'm very happy with Koda and his breeders. They even come to see him every year. I can't believe that they make time for him when they live all the way in Michigan. They are really a part of our family.
But it's a whole other thing when you can meet your pup's parents. I am like you. I can see Kumi's sassiness in Mika as well as her extremely outgoing almost busy-body attitude when strangers come over. She has her daddy's goofiness, and her cousin Akashi's naughtiness. lol. I love being able to identify her personality traits.
Oh, and she's got her mom's big ol' bootie! lol
I'll add that yes I pretty much knew I wanted a Kumi x Ritsu pup when I visited Brad & Jen's house, but Mika's parents were pups. I had to wait a while, fill out an application, and hope that my name came up for that pairing. It took a lot of patience on my part to wait for her.
@tjbart17 -- I don't know, I've had to deal with temperament issues before, and I always did fine... I guess Jake's an extreme case? Anyway, I'd like to give myself a little more credit than that... I've always worked really hard to keep my dogs well-mannered.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure I can pull together the extra money to get out to Michigan, and that should answer a lot of questions.
@rjanssen86 You have no clue what a wild Kai is. It's like having a wiley coyote in your home. I'm an experienced dog person, and they shock me. You would have to basically shut your home off to visitors, or kennel your dog while they are there, and forget about them ever leaving your yard. The second a wiley Kai leaves the home, they will forget who the hell you are and bolt from fear. This is the downside to the Kais. This is the worst case scenario, but one I've seen twice now.
@tjbart17 -- I get that I don't have any experience with the Kai, but then everyone was at that point at one stage, and I'm as certain as I can be that I have the fortitude for it. I'll be paying really close attention to sire/dam temperaments when I visit Michigan, I'll be asking for health certifications, I'll be asking for pedigrees, and I'll ask any other questions that might come up between now and then. I will do my due diligence, you can be sure of that. Thanks for the info, I've never heard it put quite that way.
@staticnfuzz - I wholeheartedly agree with looking at the extended family for a dog. I also think it's useful to talk to those who have gotten retired show dogs from a breeder since it can tell you a lot about how their dogs are treated. Could you elaborate on what you mean by "kennel blindness?" I think I know what you mean but the clarification would be educational for me I think.
While you can always have a dog that is a little anxious (even those whose lines are very stable and even-keeled) socialization and positive exposure to new stimuli is so important.
@tjbart17 - thank you for the info. I'm a bit surprised. Given the general temperament of nihon ken, I would personally want all dogs raised indoors since ongoing life long socialization is so important to mitigate some of the wildness and atavistic instincts of these dogs. I would want to know that the breeder had an incredibly rigorous socialization plan with exposure to as many different indoor and outdoor stimuli and environments as possible. Personally I wouldn't be comfortable knowing adults are kenneled but if I were I'd still want to hear the details of socialization. When we were waiting for our pup to come home we got to visit a lot, but we also heard weekly updates on what new stimuli were being introduced, how they were proceeding with potty training, and in the latter weeks, how they were proceeding with crate training. Even simple things like the opening and closing of kitchen cabinets, or the sound of kitchen appliances (not just vacuums) is important since they'll hear that once they live with you.
@rjanssen86 - I'm glad your making the trip out to Michigan. I do think it's really important to see the breeder in person. It may feel like everyone is piling on you for your decision but I think they're trying to help. For those of us without kai, it is that some of what we hear is raising red flags for us in terms of breeder standards.
I think it's important to remember that every breeder makes mistakes. What's important is how they deal with those mistakes and that they're honest with you about it. I respect the breeder that is upfront about health issues (and retiring dogs for those reasons) or other anomalies but don't try to make excuses. For my dogs, we saw the health certification for quite a few generations and siblings (they were testing dogs that were showing but had yet to be bred, who ultimately were taken out of the program for conformation reasons) and they were clear on everything. Eventually a show dog bred from the same lines had a very mild case of HD. Our breeder told us and retired the pup. There was no need to do so (our dogs were well into their adulthood and we otherwise would have not known) and one could argue that it would be disadvantageous since the lines had been extensively tested and been clear. Nonetheless I respect them enormously for their integrity. I would want to feel that my breeder is upfront with any missteps. You can't deal with a problem without first admitting there is a mistake, and I think it's important to do so even if it may be personally disadvantageous. That said, missteps in the normal course of a breeding program would be different than a pattern of questionable behavior. You'll have to be the one to differentiate.
Comments
I think violet in Seville hit it on the head that you want to be comfortable with your breeder whoever they may be, in raising any issues and feeling free to contact them for anything. The dogs life will be long and troubles (whatever they may be, the need to rehome due to situation change, behaviors, etc...) Will happen so its great to have them as a resource. I know I've talked to brad and Jen (yamabushi) several times regarding vaccinations and chips, tempermants, and just to check in because they care about Sachi as much as I do.
All of that being said all the litters for this year, of yamabushi or suteishii (sjp051993) I believe are happening this fall given when all the mothers had their last litters (dont quote me on this). If you are still considering other breeders it might be worth it to go visit them and meet the "parents", it might be worth it for Classy as well.
I got my girl sight unseen from yamabushi but they were happy to take my incredibly long phone call as I asked about their operation and her and sent me videos and pictures and a million emails. Now looking at getting a second Kai I want personalitys to mesh so driving the 7+ hours out to Suteishii is worth it just for a meet, but my circumstances are different from yours as are what I look for (i prefer adult dogs over puppies...on that note Don is an adult male looking for a hone, so is Hiro if you would consider an adult. My first priorities with any dog is that they are health and happy or have the ability to be-I write this as my girl lays down on my leg to settle in for the night so I can't turn over- them comes everything else ) etc.
All politics aside, and being recent to the kai community I was unaware of until today, go with your gut and know that you have time and options yet.
My Ife is from Marian and I can't recommend her for anyone! When I got Ife she was afraid of human hand and our first month went to get her used to touching. And Marian even accused that I have beaten Ife and that's why she is so shy.
I have showed KKA and UKC Kai in FCI shows. KKA Kai is champion, UKC not. Many judges have said to me that Ife don't remind them from Kai at all. So maybe the KKA fits better to FCI standard than the UKC.
@tjbart17 Yes, those pictures are exactly what I was trying to describe.
If you don't mind my asking, are her kais house raised or kennel raised? I feel like both her site, and some comments here dance around the issue and it's hard to discern. It seems like everyone talks about socialization but you can only ascertain that with a visit to the breeder themselves.
Those French lines. Mmmpphh I've seen those dogs. They need some outcrossing. Lol
@ Violet that's a really good point! …..
Something to keep in mind, there are varying factors to behavioral propensities and honestly some lines of dogs are just more reactive and or stress prone (regardless of breed). Much of that is neurological.
What a breeder does to remediate that through environmental enrichment and handling is critical. The earlier in life the better for neurologically disadvantaged animals. For any animal being enriched properly is a big big plus in later development when it enters a new environment…..with the caveat, sometimes all the enrichment in world will not overcome prominent neurological "mental" issues that crop up in a stagnate population.
As I am sure it has been iterated and reiterated ad nauseaum in previous threads …..A quality breeder will look at temperaments of their dogs being open to improvements beyond a mere show stack, reaching out for some diversity. It takes a lot of time and and work in multiple ways to get balanced qualities in any kennel.
So again, one will see evidence of a breeders efforts once one visits animals in their care (again regardless of breed) AND also those animals that have been placed elsewhere too.
Looking around at siblings, adults, and other similar relations, plus the activities that have been completed with them is a way to also ascertain what one may expect later. It will tell a person much more than marketing or phone chats where a breeder is talking the talk. As warning, "Kennel blindness" is a problem in breeders across all breeds, but not always obvious upon initial meeting.
Basically when one goes into to a kennel to view one needs to have a pretty darned good idea what the breed is about and what one will need to do behaviorally for what is seen.
Otherwise one is going to get wrapped in a package of buyers remorse when expectations don't meet assumptions as the dog develops. I think that is the biggest thing getting "properly educated" in a breed can prevent, even if one has had many dogs in their lives. The process starts over with each animal intended to be brought home.
Snf
It also matters on what types of questions you ask a breeder. When I got Koda I was working at a children's mental health organization. I wanted a dog that I could certify as a therapy dog or service dog. One that could come to work with me and assist therapists in treating PTSD. So my questions were based around that. Koda's breeder stood out for many reasons as being the one that was most probable at the time to breed a puppy that could handle, and like, this type of environment. I got exactly what I asked for, and she picked out just the right puppy for me. Koda is amazing with children and autistic children especially. I'll admit that I get teary eyed sometimes when I see him calm a child. He's such a natural.
Now getting Mika, my priorities changed. I just wanted a little girl. Someone to have fun with who would be active and social. I had already visited Brad and Jen, and met most of their dogs, so I didn't ask any questions. I felt like they had a good understanding of who I am and my lifestyle, and they gave me the perfect little girl. I am just so in love with her little monsterness. She is perfect for Koda, and has helped his "depression" a lot.
@Mirka @ayk I've known what Marian did to Mirka for some time now. I'm appalled that she did that to you. I know how it made you feel, and it was well just abusive to do to someone else.
I had the pleasure of meeting another Kai owner a couple of years ago who lived in the Bay Area. I had been asked by a breeder to visit her because she was having a difficult time transitioning a Kai puppy into her home. She had two older dogs, one of which was a 7 year old Kai male. This was actually her third Kai.
When I got to Suzanne's home, I quickly realized that it wasn't the puppy so much as the added stress to an environment that was already stressed with her older Kai Jake. Jake was a dog from Classy Kennels. He was so wiley that he couldn't leave the property. I had heard about Kais like these, mostly from the yahoo group when one would pop up to be re-homed or put down. Jake was fearful and aggressive. I can't explain how he acted, but he was Suzanne's heart. She loved him, and he was lucky to have such an understanding owner.
When I asked Suzanne about Jake and whether or not she had ever reached out to Marian about him, she said that she had on two occasions. One was to ask why his ears had never gone up. Marian's response was that she had never bred a Kai whose ears had not gone up and therefore Suzanne must've hurt him. When Suzanne asked her about Jake's fear and inability to settle down (this dog seriously lived every moment with an anxiety attack), Marian accused her of beating Jake.
Suzanne and I became very close, penpals who would speak on the phone frequently. She passed away about a year later from cancer. Her Kai puppy was taken back by her breeder. Jake couldn't handle hospice workers in Suzanne's home and had to be put down because he attacked one. Suzanne's last days were filled with the memory of having to put him down. I know she wanted me to take him, but I just couldn't. You can't re-home a Kai like that unless it's to someone who has a farm where he can go and never leave or be around other animals.
@tjbart17 Holy Cow...poor lady.
With Sachi at the beginning I would get questions while we were getting her used to walking with me and in my old neighborhood as to what shelter I got her from and did I know how she had been abused. It floored me when I told people she was never abused it was just the way she was for now, that she just needed some more socialization in the city and they would look at me like "yeah right" or actually in a few instances tell me I was doing it then and then continually avoid me while we walked. If my breeder or anyone I knew accused me of that I don't know how I would face them or the community again. Especially when it becomes a your word versus theirs battle. She is a UKC judge and produced these "prodigy" puppies, how does one stand up to that?
Her response to questions is to accuse people of beatings seems very aggressive and defensive. Jake's ears didn't come up, either its a fluke and then no one is held accountable, or it has happened before and she is covering her tracks about bad repeat breedings. Either way, and I say this knowing nothing of Marian nor her practices, just what I got from her kennel and from here it raises red flags for me.
the link is here: http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/comment/158341#Comment_158341
@ Tjbart & MirkaM: I also wonder if this breeder is equally as ignorant in terms of behavior of canines, on top of just being mean? If that is the case it speaks for itself. (Defense mechanism...denial ....easier to pass off on someone else than do something about it when they just do not have any answers.) It is sad this is her assumption of others.
@hinata: what you mention about stressed dams…this is something that is brought up in behaviorist circles. There is a lot that goes on that influences behavior in puppies and there are strong indications that it is indeed true because of the hormones released in the milk of the dam. ( I don't have refs for this at the moment, but it's not BS)
Well at least the issues are aired….I hope that anyone will consider it wisely when researching the purchase of a Kai.
Snf
Still there will always be those people to overcome.
It honestly doesn't make sense to me that a mother would live in a kennel and be brought into the home to raise her puppies. I've taken in a Kai rescue who was an outside dog, and acclimating her to being indoors was stressful on her and me. It took months for her to finally calm down. I even went so far as to get her t-touch massages and acupuncture to try and calm her down.
If a female is brought into the home from the kennels with her pups, then she must be crated all the time. That's the same to me as raising a puppy in a kennel. It just seems like it would be so stressful for the mama dog.
@StaticNfuzz It's just mean, and I don't do well with mean.
I never met Koda's parents. I couldn't at the time because of work and financial constraints. I understand not being able to, but Koda's breeder was VERY up front with me about Koda's parent's personalities. His mom is very social and his father is not. She didn't hold anything back. She also let me speak to owners of Koda's siblings. I did a lot of research and spent a lot of time talking to her.
I knew what I was getting or could get from Koda's lines. I don't think you know, and honestly I don't think that you could handle a Jake.
I know @tjbart17 knew she wanted a Ritsu and Kumi puppy from the time they were pups as well. So when a litter came around, it was a no brainer!
But it's a whole other thing when you can meet your pup's parents. I am like you. I can see Kumi's sassiness in Mika as well as her extremely outgoing almost busy-body attitude when strangers come over. She has her daddy's goofiness, and her cousin Akashi's naughtiness. lol. I love being able to identify her personality traits.
Oh, and she's got her mom's big ol' bootie! lol
I'll add that yes I pretty much knew I wanted a Kumi x Ritsu pup when I visited Brad & Jen's house, but Mika's parents were pups. I had to wait a while, fill out an application, and hope that my name came up for that pairing. It took a lot of patience on my part to wait for her.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure I can pull together the extra money to get out to Michigan, and that should answer a lot of questions.
While you can always have a dog that is a little anxious (even those whose lines are very stable and even-keeled) socialization and positive exposure to new stimuli is so important.
@tjbart17 - thank you for the info. I'm a bit surprised. Given the general temperament of nihon ken, I would personally want all dogs raised indoors since ongoing life long socialization is so important to mitigate some of the wildness and atavistic instincts of these dogs. I would want to know that the breeder had an incredibly rigorous socialization plan with exposure to as many different indoor and outdoor stimuli and environments as possible. Personally I wouldn't be comfortable knowing adults are kenneled but if I were I'd still want to hear the details of socialization. When we were waiting for our pup to come home we got to visit a lot, but we also heard weekly updates on what new stimuli were being introduced, how they were proceeding with potty training, and in the latter weeks, how they were proceeding with crate training. Even simple things like the opening and closing of kitchen cabinets, or the sound of kitchen appliances (not just vacuums) is important since they'll hear that once they live with you.
@rjanssen86 - I'm glad your making the trip out to Michigan. I do think it's really important to see the breeder in person. It may feel like everyone is piling on you for your decision but I think they're trying to help. For those of us without kai, it is that some of what we hear is raising red flags for us in terms of breeder standards.
I think it's important to remember that every breeder makes mistakes. What's important is how they deal with those mistakes and that they're honest with you about it. I respect the breeder that is upfront about health issues (and retiring dogs for those reasons) or other anomalies but don't try to make excuses. For my dogs, we saw the health certification for quite a few generations and siblings (they were testing dogs that were showing but had yet to be bred, who ultimately were taken out of the program for conformation reasons) and they were clear on everything. Eventually a show dog bred from the same lines had a very mild case of HD. Our breeder told us and retired the pup. There was no need to do so (our dogs were well into their adulthood and we otherwise would have not known) and one could argue that it would be disadvantageous since the lines had been extensively tested and been clear. Nonetheless I respect them enormously for their integrity. I would want to feel that my breeder is upfront with any missteps. You can't deal with a problem without first admitting there is a mistake, and I think it's important to do so even if it may be personally disadvantageous. That said, missteps in the normal course of a breeding program would be different than a pattern of questionable behavior. You'll have to be the one to differentiate.
[Edited for clarification.]