Rui - I don't think an alpha roll is a good move to do to a dog of any age. I know it's still fairly common but I don't like it. There was an article in Whole Dog Journal last year (I think) called "Treats Not Rolls" and it was all about the alpha roll, why it isn't a great thing to do, and what you can do instead. To me it just seems to hurt trust instead of build it.
Yea, I would refrain from "alpha rolling" an Akita - an Akita is the last dog you need to learn he has to use force to control pack order or get what he wants. When Kuma is larger and older he will be a handful if he feels he needs to use force to get what he wants because you used force to get him to behave the way you wanted as a pup.
Akita respond very well to positive reinforcement, they are smart & independent dogs and will take the easy way - and what's easier than sitting (or whatever) for a treat - right? :c)
EDIT: (for clarity) I would refrain from "alpha rolling" any dog, especially an Akita.
Ok, makes sense. I'll refrain from getting him on his back. Getting him to sit or do something for a treat or praise seems friendlier, without a doubt. But can't that work against you if you time it wrong? As an example, let's use the humping thing. He humps, you tell him no, make him sit, and treat or praise. Won't he take the whole drill as a reinforcement of the humping?
Just because you don't alpha roll doesn't mean you shouldn't reprimand. I've done it before, but as I'm learning more and more I'm questioning the wisdom of doing so. If he responds to a verbal correction and stops humping, then praise is absolutely what he should get. If he ignores your verbal correction, then what? A scruff shake? A shove? A touch?
Dave - Yes, an alpha roll has been the ultimate tool, I've done it 5 or 6 times tops. But should positive reinforcement include physical reprimands? Like a scruff shake? Normally I separate him from what he's doing wrong, by pulling him or pushing him from the shoulders. If he keeps insisting a swift scruff shake will follow. That normally does it.
Now, if I turn completely to positive reinforcement, will any kind of physical reprimand automatically be off the menu? I tend to think no, cause I'm inclined to think a good balance between the two methods would be the best choice. The problem is, where do we find the balance? Will a balanced thing be ,eventually, more confusing to the dog? I mean, in a pack of dogs/wolves, if one of them gets out of line with his alpha or an individual that "out ranks" him, he gets corrected. That correction might come in the from of a growl (verbal correction), a nip or shove (physical correction) or escalate. And that gives structure to a pack. I don't know if any of this makes sense...
It does make sense. I agree with what you're saying. My philosophy is to reprimand for bad behavior and praise for good behavior. If I reprimand and they immediately change to a behavior I am happy with, I always immediately give praise. The question I was asking was the one you raised. If you go with positive reinforcement, how do you reprimand---especially when a verbal correction is ignored.
one of the people that is always at the dog park when i am pokes his dog in the side and says 'shhh' to get the dog to do what he wants. it looks dreadful.
i realized that only positive reinforcement with treats is how i am 'heard' in my home.
With Hilo we never use physical correction - a simple "no" and he is good. Hilo is super sweet Akita tho - not the norm.
We don't really use physical correction with any of our dogs, except maybe to grab Ahi and move her if she is out of control.
----
In a pack, the leader rarely uses physical correction - the middle dogs will physically correct each other a lot, that is were the risk of a fight exists. This is where I would agree with Caesar, a "calm assertive" leader is who runs a pack and is alpha not a dog that has to use force to get what he/she needs.
----
As for your question (your hypothetical "humping" example), [imo] the humping is an act the dog is preforming on his own, the sit is a command he is doing for you, as a request.
So the reinforcement (with the treat) is for the sit, not the humping. The sit is the redirection and the "work" the dogs has to do for a reward. There is no connection between the two.
From what I have learned, dogs chain positive events, or negative events, but will not chain a negative event to a positive event or vice-versa.
**does anyone think Kitsune's humping Tsuki was the first sign of his wanting to gain dominance? And now he bit her so hard she bled.. geez, what is happening to my pack order of 2??
I wouldn't even be sure there is a struggle for dominance going on. I guess I'm not even ready to say you have a problem yet. I understand why you are concerned, but unless it started to happen frequently, it might be just a one time incident. Try not to stress too much (much easier said than done I know) I think more time is needed to see how Tsuki's behavior progresses.
So this afternoon, we are taking our normal walk, and one of our neighbors got a new dog from the SPCA this past weekend. He was outside on his lead with his new owner, humping her away! Just going to town, on her leg, she was washing her car.. not even caring. WTF?
What does THAT mean for your pack leadership skills if your dog humps you like that? not to mention to a passerby, it just looked disturbing.
Whenever a dog tries to hump Sasha, she yelps and snaps. She hates having her rear end touched, though the whole time, her ears are back and tail between the legs, body down, basically a fearful submissive posture. I guess her dislike and fear of being touched gets higher than her fear of the other dog. sort of like a cornered animal. this reaction is especially strong with dogs she doesn't know. Cobalt tried it a couple of times and soon learned she was not to be messed around with. her friends usually don't do it, since they're not really dominant dogs.
Tsukitsune- I just don't get what's going through your neighbor's head!
yeah me either. She said she didn't want to upset him because he was so new to her and a shelter dog. to each their own. I just hope she doesn't start taking him to the dog park and we all have to deal..
Comments
Yea, I would refrain from "alpha rolling" an Akita - an Akita is the last dog you need to learn he has to use force to control pack order or get what he wants. When Kuma is larger and older he will be a handful if he feels he needs to use force to get what he wants because you used force to get him to behave the way you wanted as a pup.
Akita respond very well to positive reinforcement, they are smart & independent dogs and will take the easy way - and what's easier than sitting (or whatever) for a treat - right? :c)
EDIT: (for clarity) I would refrain from "alpha rolling" any dog, especially an Akita.
Ok, makes sense. I'll refrain from getting him on his back. Getting him to sit or do something for a treat or praise seems friendlier, without a doubt. But can't that work against you if you time it wrong? As an example, let's use the humping thing. He humps, you tell him no, make him sit, and treat or praise. Won't he take the whole drill as a reinforcement of the humping?
good question!!!!
thats what i'm afraid of too!
i don't think by rolling the dog is going to trust you any less. i'm
sure that a roll will become physically harmful when the dog is up
there in age.
we had to roll a foster boston terrier many times
- many many times - and finally he stopped biting me when my husband
was around!
Dave - Yes, an alpha roll has been the ultimate tool, I've done it 5 or 6 times tops. But should positive reinforcement include physical reprimands? Like a scruff shake? Normally I separate him from what he's doing wrong, by pulling him or pushing him from the shoulders. If he keeps insisting a swift scruff shake will follow. That normally does it.
Now, if I turn completely to positive reinforcement, will any kind of physical reprimand automatically be off the menu? I tend to think no, cause I'm inclined to think a good balance between the two methods would be the best choice. The problem is, where do we find the balance? Will a balanced thing be ,eventually, more confusing to the dog? I mean, in a pack of dogs/wolves, if one of them gets out of line with his alpha or an individual that "out ranks" him, he gets corrected. That correction might come in the from of a growl (verbal correction), a nip or shove (physical correction) or escalate. And that gives structure to a pack. I don't know if any of this makes sense...
one of the people that is always at the dog park when i am pokes his
dog in the side and says 'shhh' to get the dog to do what he wants. it
looks dreadful.
i realized that only positive reinforcement with treats is how i am 'heard' in my home.
With Hilo we never use physical correction - a simple "no" and he is good. Hilo is super sweet Akita tho - not the norm.
We don't really use physical correction with any of our dogs, except maybe to grab Ahi and move her if she is out of control.
----
In a pack, the leader rarely uses physical correction - the middle dogs will physically correct each other a lot, that is were the risk of a fight exists. This is where I would agree with Caesar, a "calm assertive" leader is who runs a pack and is alpha not a dog that has to use force to get what he/she needs.
----
As for your question (your hypothetical "humping" example), [imo] the humping is an act the dog is preforming on his own, the sit is a command he is doing for you, as a request.
So the reinforcement (with the treat) is for the sit, not the humping. The sit is the redirection and the "work" the dogs has to do for a reward. There is no connection between the two.
From what I have learned, dogs chain positive events, or negative events, but will not chain a negative event to a positive event or vice-versa.
wanting to gain dominance? And now he bit her so hard she bled.. geez,
what is happening to my pack order of 2??
I wouldn't even be sure there is a struggle for dominance going on. I guess I'm not even ready to say you have a problem yet. I understand why you are concerned, but unless it started to happen frequently, it might be just a one time incident. Try not to stress too much (much easier said than done I know) I think more time is needed to see how Tsuki's behavior progresses.
WTF?
What does THAT mean for your pack leadership skills if your dog humps you like that? not to mention to a passerby, it just looked disturbing.
Tsukitsune- I just don't get what's going through your neighbor's head!