"The late geneticist, Dr. John Armstrong of the University of Ottawa, Canada so elegantly wrote,8 In my view, one could probably subdivide inbreeding into three categories: background, historic and recent. The background level is dependent upon the number of founders. In a breed/population that started from six or eight founders, sometimes closely related, you cannot find individuals that are not related even if you breed as carefully as possible. Recent (or “close”) inbreeding is, to me, the breeding of sons to mothers, full siblings, and the like. When it isn’t done simply for the convenience of the breeder, the usual justification is that it is the only way to preserve type, or that it is an effective way of discovering problems in your line. Yes, genetic defects can be uncovered in this way, but in practice I don’t think many are or they are not recognized as such. Historic inbreeding results from uneven sampling from the population. This is most obvious with the males. The same few “popular” (well-promoted) individuals are used repeatedly, and many of the others are not used at all. The collection of genes from the latter may be lost to the population, particularly if it is small. Everyone becomes related to these popular sires and inbreeding becomes inevitable. What appears to happen is that slightly detrimental genes that individually might not make much of an impact start to accumulate in the population until breeders begin to notice that their litter sizes are smaller than they remember the old-timers reporting, they have difficulty getting a bitch pregnant and that various health problems seem to be turning up more often than in the past. Some may attribute these problems to diet, environmental toxins and the like, but the bulk of it is genetic [author’s emphasis]. This is what inbreeding depression is all about." http://dogdimension.org/DiversitySite/thorp-vargas04.shtml
Sorry if this has already been awesome, but why give him to a person who is willing to keep him intact incase someone wants to use him. His condition does not seem to be that bad that he can't be bred.
I waited until I got home to read the wall of texts. :-)
@brada1878 - I thought about editing that part about finding 'dog people' from dog shows to dog events and even media like breed specific FB and this forum. But I think it's more likely you'll find more people ready to breed in the dog show world with existing set-ups, no hang-ups about intact dogs, and a willingness to plop down some major money on foundation stock ... once they get past the "no health tests" barrier.
The other venues are great for finding people willing to contribute by taking individual dogs as pets or intact pets. Small scale rather than large scale.
That's just my loose thinking on this though. Nothing definate.
@lindsayt - SNPs can be used as markers. They don't measure every portion of the DNA, but diversity of SNPs can be extrapolated as diversity of the genome.
I wouldn't get too vested in this though as the value depends greatly on what SNPs are chosen. It's a tool for researchers who are trying locate and determine disease genes, but not so much for an individual breeder trying to find meaningful diverse mates. (Diversity in a region of a DNA that's only filler and not used for coding proteins doesn't do much.)
How would someone go about importing a dog that has different bloodlines from all of the NA breeders? I would really like to do that. I'm a little hesitant to import an adult because I would have no idea how his temperament would be and I would be bringing him in to be part of the family. I would want him to be more than a "breeder."
@lizzysilvertongue to be honest this is what I get all the time in emails, so I'll use it as an example:) Everyone asks for a dog that is unrelated to everything that has gone to the US or Europe. This is a breed that has 200-300 pups born a year, with the majority being produced by only a few kennels. 2 years ago one of my friends registered 20 pups, so he basically produced 10% of that years total puppies. There are 2 prevalent lines in the breed now, coming out of two kennels, Izumo Yano So and Ayumi So. Other than that there are a few smaller lines that are inbred, and to be honest they're so far south that I haven't seen more than a couple of these dogs. Also, I've been told dogs were a different line, only to actually crawl up the pedigree, and discover that they have the same ancestors as very famous dogs from the current prevalent lines. The kennels just did not know, but it ends up being a huge waste of my time and resources since I have to travel all around the country just to get to these dogs. Then next portion of the comment then sums up what I was alluding to in my comment. Kennels in Europe, because a lot of them have outdoor kennels, have the facilities to accept an adult dog. Thus you know what you are getting as far as quality, you can get a proven breeder, and if you really put some effort into it, you can get the dog tested before it is sent to you. You do not have to worry about an adult dog not fitting in to an entirely new environment than it has ever experienced, being around other dogs, pets, and people, and being indoors.
It is hard unless you read Japanese. The pedigree from NIPPO was in Japanese and Shigeru and Yano-san helped determine how related it was further back as well as close up. They could go and look at the pedigrees on file in the NIPPO office. And even then, Shigeru did a "translation" of the names from Japanese to English, but some of the Kanji can be translated different ways, so the names on some dogs were slighltly different when I received the translated JKC pedigree (along with the Kanji NIPPO pedigree). Shigeru warned me that might happen. So again, not so easy to do, at least for me, with no Japanese language skills.
Why even bother with Kanji in the pedigree research? Can't you just use the registration numbers?
@NotoriousScrat - A healthy population is a diverse population. You cannot have a healthy population w/o diversity...
Yes, the OFA can be used to give a breeder more information, but there are much better tools out there for gaining data. Also, OFA is useful for one health issues - there are millions of health issues. In dogdom the OFA has been the primary focus for whether a breeders does "health checks" or not, which pushes the community's eye away from more important health issues like hearts, seizures, bloat, and... diversity (and extinction)!
Remember, hips can be fixed, a neurologic issue, or a bad heart, cannot (usually).
Yes, but you can't test for seizures, for many neurological issues, etc. So people test for what they can test for. Most of the time, vets don't even know WHY a dog has seizures. I agree it OFA may only be of use for one possible health issue,but you know, I'd rather have to at least know that is likely that my dog will have decent hips/elbows/eyes, because I know very well I still have to worry about everything else that can go wrong. OFA testing is no guarantee, but it's better than nothing, and I hope that the breeder who is looking at hips/elbows/eyes is also going to be concerned about other issues. And on the flip side, if someone can't be bothered to do those tests, why should I trust them to tell me the truth if I ask about seizures or heart issues, or whatever else?
I understand you're not saying do away with tests--as I understand it, you're pointing out that these tests are limited in use and may promote a kind of tunnel vision. But I'm saying as a person who buys a dog, I have to have some way of trying to get a healthy dog, and that is simply one part of it.
I understand that part of this discussion is that the Shikoku is in very bad shape as a breed, and that things might need to be done to promote genetic diversity. However, I'm still looking at from the point of view of someone who buys a dog and then might be faced, not only with a huge financial outlay to keep that dog alive and healthy, but also the sheer heartache of having to deal with an unhealthy dog. So part of my issue here is that regardless of what the breeder does to with his/her breeding program, s/he should be absolutely upfront about that, so the buyer can make an educated choice about whether to get that dog or not. It seems to me this has not always been the case here.
And any which way, it is almost damned if you damned if you don't. As you can see on this thread, there are those vilifying the use of Shogun and others who say he should have been kept in the population because it is so small. It is a sad situation and I know I try to do the best that I can, but certainly it will not please everyone.
You have my empathy. And I don't know if any other breeder would have actually stepped up and said "Don't neuter him! I'll purchase him and take the risks."
Way back up, @poeticdragon mentioned that there is no breed health survey and people just don't know what the status of the hips are in Japan. Maybe Shogan is above the average. No one knows.
I would then suggest collecting him and storing his genetic material before neutering. Buy time to assess the health of the breed (or his pups) and then later make the decision.
With regards to inflicting misery on puppy buyers, maybe the pups from a test breeding should be kept by the breeder until the pups can be assessed. If the pup is affected, then the pup can be euthanized. If clear, the pup can be placed into a home. It makes for a crowded kennel in the short term though.
@ayk I deleted a line at the end of my last comment where I was laying out my hope that someone in North America with the means and determination to take the lead for the breed would show up. Someone with a plan, and the set up to create breeding programs and map out a solid plan forward for the breed over there.
Yes, but you can't test for seizures, for many neurological issues, etc. So people test for what they can test for. Most of the time, vets don't even know WHY a dog has seizures. I agree it OFA may only be of use for one possible health issue,but you know, I'd rather have to at least know that is likely that my dog will have decent hips/elbows/eyes, because I know very well I still have to worry about everything else that can go wrong. OFA testing is no guarantee, but it's better than nothing, and I hope that the breeder who is looking at hips/elbows/eyes is also going to be concerned about other issues. And on the flip side, if someone can't be bothered to do those tests, why should I trust them to tell me the truth if I ask about seizures or heart issues, or whatever else?
[ not picking on you Lisa, you are the easiest one to quote ]
Yes, you can test for hips, and elbows, and eyes. No, as far as I can tell, we can't test for whatever issue it is that Fate & His brother [ & possibly another brother ] has, but do you know, that not one single shikoku breeder has EVER asked me what the signs were for Fate? Never have they asked me what are the exact symptoms, or when did they start to show up, and looking back, there were QUITE a few that showed up very early on.
Indeed, it's the opposite, when I first came out about Fate, it was made to look like a simple environmental issue, or I got private messaged that it was my fault, and I did xyz that caused it. [ they know who they are ]
But no, let's continue to nit-pick dogs because they have mild hips, or their colour is wrong, or their tail is set too high, or their ears too far back. That's more important than a fatal, degenerative, neurological issue that showed up in at least, confirmed, 2 out of 4 puppies in a litter.
I had to find out about Fate's brother through the Nihon Ken Forum, so imagine, you never know, how many other shikoku with this issue might be out there that the general public doesn't know about. Consider the Japanese culture when it comes to sick dogs, or dogs with issues, imagine how many are there that we don't know about.
There is a lot of sneakiness in this breed's community, and a lot of "Secrets" and bull shit politics no one wants to talk about. At the end of the day tho, those of us who get the fucked up puppies are the ones that get to suffer and watch them die.
Spent 3 years waiting for my shikoku puppy. Pay almost $3,000 for a shikoku puppy with shipping, and what do I get? Only heartache. Basically, I paid $1,000 for each year I get to spend with him. Would've paid more if it meant I got more time with him, but instead, I get to watch the rest of the breed go to hell and see if any more puppies pop up like him in the future. ~
Yes, but you can't test for seizures, for many neurological issues, etc. So people test for what they can test for. Most of the time, vets don't even know WHY a dog has seizures. I agree it OFA may only be of use for one possible health issue,but you know, I'd rather have to at least know that is likely that my dog will have decent hips/elbows/eyes, because I know very well I still have to worry about everything else that can go wrong. OFA testing is no guarantee, but it's better than nothing, and I hope that the breeder who is looking at hips/elbows/eyes is also going to be concerned about other issues. And on the flip side, if someone can't be bothered to do those tests, why should I trust them to tell me the truth if I ask about seizures or heart issues, or whatever else?
I understand you're not saying do away with tests--as I understand it, you're pointing out that these tests are limited in use and may promote a kind of tunnel vision. But I'm saying as a person who buys a dog, I have to have some way of trying to get a healthy dog, and that is simply one part of it.
I'm pointing out that the OFA is an abused concept among breeders in the US. Too much emphasis is put on it as the primary health test to be done on dogs when breeding - even in breeds where HD is a very very uncommon issue. While other issues in that same breed are prevalent. The average puppy buyer may not be aware of the breed-specific health issues, but knows that everyone must OFA (because that's printed all over every dog forum), and so that is all they look for in a breeder.
I feel the prevalence of the OFA in dog breeding has created a type of distraction that allows breeders claim they "health test" while meanwhile they ignore the real important breed-specific tests.
--
But, putting that aside, I think you're actually taking my comment out of context a bit. I was subtly referring to the Shikoku situation - culling a dog for an OFA "mild HD", while keeping a dog, and continuing to breed him, that's produced neurological health issues.
To me, culling like this seems more like a marketing move than an actual sincere act to try and improve the breed's health. "Look over here, I'm culling this dog from our program due to OFA mild HD. See I do health check!" ... Meanwhile breeding dogs that produce more severe health issues over here.
WRT to tests outside of OFA, while you can't test for seizures specifically, you can test for a lot of the things that cause seizures like hypoglycemia, thyroid dysfunction, and liver problems. You can also stress-test your dogs for bloat, and there are plenty of heart tests out there too.
I understand that part of this discussion is that the Shikoku is in very bad shape as a breed, and that things might need to be done to promote genetic diversity. However, I'm still looking at from the point of view of someone who buys a dog and then might be faced, not only with a huge financial outlay to keep that dog alive and healthy, but also the sheer heartache of having to deal with an unhealthy dog. So part of my issue here is that regardless of what the breeder does to with his/her breeding program, s/he should be absolutely upfront about that, so the buyer can make an educated choice about whether to get that dog or not. It seems to me this has not always been the case here.
If shopping for a breed with a tiny little population, like the Shikoku, then buyers should be made aware of the potential issues.
When the breeder is asked about health issues and testing, buyers should be told honestly the issues facing the breed and the issues found in the foundation stock of the breeder's dogs. So that then the puppy buyer can make an educated decision as to if they want to take the risk with the breed or not.
Hell, if they've found the Shikoku breed, then they must have done more research than the average puppy shopper - and therefore should have at least a mild understanding of the smallness of the breed's population.
Buying a very rare breed like the Shikoku, who is in a stage it's in, should be presented to puppy buyers as a "work in progress" and an effort to preserve the breed - and health issues in the foundation stock should be discussed openly and not kept secret.
It's my personal feeling that, while every breeder should strive to produce 100% healthy pups, every breeder WILL produce some health issues at some point - and it's how the breeder deals with those issues and their client that sets them apart from the mediocrity (the mainstream).
@brada1878 It's my personal feeling that, while every breeder should strive to produce 100% healthy pups, every breeder WILL produce some health issues at some point - and it's how the breeder deals with those issues and their client that sets them apart from the mediocrity (the mainstream).
Just wanted to say... THIS TIMES ONE MILLION!!!! ~
I can't believe @Sangmort that the breeder only offered you another puppy. Not "I'm looking into this issue and I will not breed this dog anymore", not money back so you can pay for all the trips to the vet (I can only imagine you've made a ton with Fate), not ANYTHING that made sense. And I CANNOT believe people would send you PRIVATE MESSAGES in the beginning that it's YOUR FAULT. People make me sick. >:( But I'm just venting and digressing...so I won't continue further. You are so strong to be handling this with Fate, and I know you're giving him the best life he could've possible had (no matter how short it may be). Give him some love for me <333
And I CANNOT believe people would send you PRIVATE MESSAGES in the beginning that it's YOUR FAULT. People make me sick. >:(
When my friend's Japanese Akita started showing very early signs of VKH, the breeder (in Japan; the dog is an import) initially blamed the coat loss on the food my friend feeds. He believes that Americans with their fancy diets and finicky approach to raising dogs actually causes poor condition or health problems. Later on when she began losing pigment and had vision issues, it was a different story.
To Shigeru's point that if someone were to step up in the u.s. and really try and fix the breeds direction if the shikoku club is moot, how much working together would be possible?
@brada1878 It's my personal feeling that, while every breeder should strive to produce 100% healthy pups, every breeder WILL produce some health issues at some point - and it's how the breeder deals with those issues and their client that sets them apart from the mediocrity (the mainstream).
Just wanted to say... THIS TIMES ONE MILLION!!!! ~
This is exactly what I meant....that what disturbs me is not informing people about the possibilities. And Osy, this is exactly what I'm talking about....I'm disturbed--no, outraged--by what happened with you and Fate. And that is exactly what I'm talking about--people get unhealthy dogs and watch their dogs suffer and die. My issue is about breeders not be up front, not informing people about health issues, etc.
And yes, I 100% agree, that all breeders will produce dogs with health issues at some point, but how they deal with it makes all the difference. For me, just an "I'm so sorry this happened, and I'm taking it seriously and thinking about how this effects breeding plans" would have made all the difference for me. (And you know, my breeder blew me off, but it was another breeder, who I didn't buy a puppy from, but should have, who was the one who said "I'm so sorry, is there anything I can do to help?")
Osy, I'm really sorry, and also really angry about how you have been treated. It is devastating.
To Shigeru's point that if someone were to step up in the u.s. and really try and fix the breeds direction if the shikoku club is moot, how much working together would be possible?
I'm so much not an expert that it's not even funny, but I want to comment on this?
The only rare breed I've had (really the only dog I've had) was a Finnish Lapphund--which is and was a breed in a totally different place than the Shikoku (large and healthy--and health-tested--population in the country of origin, inbreeding tremendously discouraged, etc.), but was introduced to the US primarily through one very dedicated breeder despite some early (and later) rifts in the breed club. Essentially, it seems like what ends up happening is that one person does what they think is right regardless of what the club does. They keep careful records, are forthcoming about their dogs, are sensible and pragmatic about what they will or will not breed from, and show in whatever registry is available to them to try to attract other "dog people" to the breed in the hope that someday they won't have to go it alone. With time, other breeders come in who support what that single dedicated breeder stands for, and essentially a new version of the club (or an entirely new club) forms. So eventually collaboration becomes very possible... but there need to be people with whom to collaborate first.
The problem is, of course, that it takes a very special person to be that dedicated. It's a ton of time, money, and energy. The woman I referred to above had over 30 dogs for a long time, though she had never really wanted to go over 10, because that was the only possible way to have enough genetic diversity when practically nobody else was keeping intact dogs of the breed in the US. I don't even want to think about how much time and money she spent on bringing dogs over, showing them, screening homes, etc. Almost single-handedly, with a handful of much smaller "kennels" (usually just people with two or three intact pets they were willing to show and perhaps breed once) to help from time to time. It really does sound like the Shikoku needs someone like that, but I'm afraid such people are rarer than the Shikoku itself.
And like everyone else has said... what happened with Osy and Fate is reprehensible. Yes, all breeders will sometimes produce dogs with health problems... and how they handle that is absolutely what separates them from one another. Ignoring the problems, blaming the owner, just offering another pup without reevaluating the program that produced the problem in the first place... horrible, dangerous, and pointless. I'm really sorry for everyone who has had to deal with their dog's breeder blowing them off over stuff like that, even on top of feeling bad for them and their dogs having to deal with the issue in the first place...
To clarify, my breeder did say they were "sorry" & it's something they can't test an animal for & that it is a "rare condition." They also forwarded the videos I posted on NKF to Shigeru, who then replied, that my breeder then forwarded to me. [ 2 known instances in Japan, both dogs dead around age 4, tho this is hard for me to imagine, it progresses so quickly I imagine Fate would be a vegetable if we kept him til he hit 4 ]
They also suggested it might be Wobbler's.
That said, I would have more appreciated seeing it discussed, with the breeders, as a whole. Something done to find out what the issue is in the breed. Trying to figure out the cause / symptoms / etc. How to prevent it in the future. Ways to screen for it in the future. Being simply asked what were the early signs so they could detect it in future litters so others would not have to go through this. What it means for breeding. Instead, it gets ignored, unmentioned.
Most of all, I would have liked to have known beforehand, when Fate's bro told the breeder. They still have never confessed to me Fate's bro has an issue, and I have reason to believe, from 2nd hand knowledge, that Fate's 3rd brother also has this issue. A simple "hey, I don't know if you've had any issues, but Fate's littermate has been experiencing...xyz."
But anyway, that's beside the point. My whole point was, the breed is going in the wrong direction. There are worse things than "mild" hips to look at. As I said before, I would trade Fate's good looks & his neuro issues for the shittiest hips in the world, even if it required surgery.
The fact is, it seems, everyone would rather cull a dog for mild hips then breed a dog with good hips but it is "ugly as hell" by the standard. Let's face it, no one is importing "ugly standard" shikoku, they're importing the ones they think will show well, even tho it would probably be more cost-effective to increase the genepool to import at least SOME "ugly standard" shikoku. [ ETA: which would still be drop-dead gorgeous shikoku, BTW ]
Also, you have to look at how many shikoku have been imported in a year. I think @brada1878 has imported more kai ken [ & kishu & shikoku when you count the Sakura [?], Kaiju, & Nami ] in a year by himself more than all the NA breeders combined.
& FTR, I've got Dragoon over here, my kishu, also with mysterious skin/allergy-issues that drive us up the wall, but Gen @shishiinu [ her breeder ] has been an AMAZING source of support & encouragement, & definitely someone I consider a friend. I wish my experience with Fate's breeder was just a tenth as good as my experience with Gen is.
I don't expect my dogs to be physically perfect. They're dogs, and no living creature on this planet will ever 100% be perfect. [ I know I sure as hell am not ] That's just part of being alive. However, it would be nice to see a group of people actually give a damn instead of play games and ignore things, or pretend like they don't exist, or keep secrets, or...etc. ~
I might be off completely on this, but I thought about something I saw a few years ago. I worked at Petsmart and a man walked in with two of the most beautiful AA puppies. I spoke to him and complimented his dogs. He said that they were bred from a dog that had been dead for 11 years. The sperm was frozen before the death of the dog because a female of good quality couldn't be found at the time. They waited to find the perfect mate, even after the dog died. Could this be an option with the Shikoku breed? I know it's expensive, but if the breed is that rare it could be worth it. We spend a ton of money on our dogs anyways and this could save an entire breed. That way, if a male is great for breeding but all the females that are of age are not, the great genes don't have to be lost. I haven't researched it, but I'm sure egg freezing is available as well for females. Like I said, just a thought. If I'm off on this, just ignore me
@myabee09--don't feel bad about making what u would construe as "off the wall comments." They are not totally off. In fact, it Kaiju's "juju" is soo awesome, I am going to freeze some of his sperm (and keep it stored in liquid nitrogen in the lab, haha, jk on the last part)
@Myabee09 It becomes a question of whether or not the Japanese registry would accept and register puppies resulting from AI. We can't get AKIHO to give us a straight answer for the Japanese Akita (so that means "no" at this point).
@poeticdragon I understand. That makes sense with all the other comments about the breeders overseas kind of lacking in the technology area.
@ttddinh I feel out of my element commenting on this type of thread. Normally with those feelings, I have blonde moments that follow.
I'm also reading a good book right now. It's called "Inside of a Dog" by Alexandra Horowitz. It goes into more, but I just finished the section on the origins of dogs. Like how they came from wolves, but also how they are not wolves and the selective breeding used to make the breeds we see today. The book helps me understand this topic more and it's a fabulous read so far.
Sangmort: I had no idea, that's just heartbreaking, I know you waited a long time and tried to cover all bases with research. It's all too familiar though with breeder interactions, eluding to it is the owners fault on xyz in regard to health. At least she gave an apology, not that negates the situation. (With the several dogs I have had over the years, I have never been given an apology for any health problem ever, period. Same type of responses you got so you are not alone.) Yeah the following holds true mostly, "The usual fortune of complaint is to excite contempt more than pity" ~ Samuel Johnson
In any case, think a lot of breeders take the approach if there isn't anything definitive or a disease to label, then they are off the hook. They are at a loss on what to do, so if they can't do anything why worry about it. Also agreed, as suggested, it sounds like a problem that needs continued investigation within the breed (club?) since it is such a serious issue.
As far as Shikoku breeders, do not know anything about them per se though, but I do know that overall many breeders will not disclose information about other clients that have purchased from them. Therefore, not having gained the info directly is not a surprise.
Actually there are those who really do not care, even when things DO go right, with a dog that they have sold or their dogs does well at kennel/home or venue. Once the dog is out of their care that's it, you will not hear from them again or receive responses. Who knows the reasoning for the lack of communication, the moon is not blue?…. people become offended for the damnedest of reasons, seemingly shunning those who would be willing to offer more. In the case of poor health, it's only human nature, who wants the ax dug in further…. personal pride is a big thing for many.
Again, I will say shunning others (on either side) does not help a breed overall though.
About hips:
I know another breed outside of japanese breeds that have had to pull themselves up from low numbers, and cross out of the breed even. Within that breed it is a general consensus having a low to poor hip score for right side or left is not the end of the world. I also know that breeding to better dogs and bitches and looking at OFA or X-rays has helped in certain kennels to reduce the propensity by looking into better options. Which most try to do. It seems to be making a dent within that breed for those who choose to use the tools.
Similar to the above, what it did not resolve though was undefined neurological issues, as well as epilepsy and late age onset seizures or cardiac. Some people address that, others don't as a matter of personal preference. Getting the word out is half the battle, as is good communication. Not every breeder will have good communication skill sets with their current or past clients. (As a side note: Often times breeders take an island approach to avoid the battering and tomato throwing that ill produced or poor intentioned information can cause. Keep in mind media is cold and adept at presenting information out of context too.)
Noted above, I realize not everyone feels positively inclined about specific testing or test results, BUT, there is something to the fact that at least looking at some things is better than not looking at anything at all. Isn't that a step in the right direction? There is something in every program that could be done better or wiser, even in the people skill factor. It's just part of assessment.
In terms of ideology, other breeders philosophy may not be my own philosophy on culling, I know I have to keep this in mind….. In this regard the two ends may never meet…. Their expectations my not be my expectations. Unfortunately, from what I have seen, over time this is were the petty riffs can come in, along with ostracizing others.
The Shikoku may not be the first breed to wane, hopefully it will have a resurgence with a new set of vested priorities down the path…. Big hope is it won't be so far off the path with no point of return. The links on diversity are great but not everyone will vest in that which is the reality, wether it be cost, effort, ignorance, or pride that precludes it.
Open information:
Agreed, open disclosure on health is something that has to remain available to allow weighing by each individual that ventures into the Shikoku breed. Specifically knowing full well the potential long term costs may actually be high in developing their programs and in ownership of the breed.
Yes, I concur, it appears less and less people are going to have a larger reputable kennels to experiment and hold dogs to full maturity, it just the landscape of America at the moment…. regional zoning is going to preclude that in a great many places.
I've read this thread with great interest. In Chinooks, there were 11 reconstitution breeding dogs, male and female. UKC okayed a program where we could breed to breeds in the foundation of the original Chinook (I call it a bastard breed, furthered by AKC acceptance. While these are freight drafting sled dogs, Good hips are great, but with seizures in many lines, we do have a seizure study with several people (UMO, VET GEN Helsinki Purdue)
UKC allowed this and in 5 generations, it was considered pure. There was also the Dalmation backcross project where a Dal was bred to a German Pointer(?) whose line ridded itself of Uric stones, so prevalent in the American Population. In 5 gens, the breed was genetically pure. It was the Dal Club of America who said the descending lines could not be registered with AKC because they were not pure enough.
Funnily enough, they are now being registered in the UK:-)
Actually, I agree that hips are a good start but so mild compared with VKH or Fate's horrible problem. There has been a gene found in the Turveren for seizures, which was in the background of the reconstituted breed of the Chinook. But so far no connection.
I would be happy to initiate a health committee for the Shikoku and I don't have a Shikoku. But those "Secrets" about health and emphasis on winning is a criteria I don't like. Thanks to Nico, we have something to go on, and that's a start. But from where Osy sits, I would think a TOTAL REFUND (with shipping) AND another puppy would have been kinder.
Recently, I wanted a pup for breeding from Europe, (Nico's litter), but with airfare and price it was about 4300-4500 and I could not afford it. I am hoping that the Shikoku might have an open health registry, but am I a dreamer?
Sorry for taking so long to chime in, I have not had the time to stay on top of the forum posts and comments the past few months. I co-own Shogun with @Edgewood and Katja.
First, please know, the Shogun x Kimi breeding had more to do with timing and my desire to retire Kimi than anything else.
My family and I have owned Kimi for a number of years, and would like to have her as a pet only member of the family. Kimi has produced a few wonderful litters, and is a very healthy, well tempered dog. She is loved and adored by everyone in my family; as are all of our dogs. We have no current plans to spay her, and with it having been discovered that Shogun has HD, there will likely be atleast one more breeding in her future with another 'yet to be determined' male.
Shogun stayed with my family from the age of 10 months to 18 months, at which point he was to travel to Akashima, finish off his Champion status on the show circuit, and have his health checks done at 18 to 24 months.
When Kimi came into season shortly before Shogun was to travel to Akashima, I let Katja know. Despite his young age, as Shogun came from excellent stock in Japan, has a fantastic temperament, and moves extremely well, it was decided to let a breeding take place. I still cannot believe Shogun had a bad hip x-ray, if you saw him in person, you would know what I mean. He is an extremely strong and agile young dog.
The breeding was a success, and I took Kimi to Akashima in late March so that Katja could oversee the birth and subsequent placement of the pups. As Shogun is much loved by my family, I kept him here until Kimi was ready to go; when the pups were ~8 weeks old. This is why the prospective pup owners were not informed ahead of time. Katja did not yet have Shogun, and he was not tested until after the pups were placed.
Katja is committed to keeping her breeding stock healthy, and once it was determined that Shogun had HD, the decision was made by the three of us to place him in a pet only home. I am saddened that he has subsequently been neutered; however, I understand the reasoning. I had requested keeping the 'pick of the litter' pup that was no long going to Australia, due to the potential for bad hips, but it had already placed. I for one, was willing to take a chance on the pups being fine.
The breeding that produced Fate and siblings was Kuma x Aiko. Two of the pups in the litter were notably smaller than the others. Kuma has sired many healthy litters, and Aiko was fixed and homed so the breeding combination that produced pups with such sad neurological conditions could not be repeated. One of my Shikoku, Yoshi, is a male rescue with moderate HD - both his parents had Good to Excellent OFA scores; even still, Katja never repeated the breeding that produced him. Katja is passionate about the breed, has done a lot to help the NA population get to where it is at, and in all of my dealings with her, has always been up front and no nonsense. She has helped bring recognition to the breed, both by attending shows, puppy classes, etc and raising breed awareness, to working with the CKC to properly establish the Shikoku as a fully recognized and registered breed, as well as hosting visitors who would like to learn more and meet a Shikoku in person. I consider her to be an ethical breeder and a fantastic person.
Regardless, despite his HD, Yoshi is an excellent dog, and though having had to be medicated for hip related pain by his previous owner (before we got him), we no longer have any issues. We adjusted his activity level to less agressive forms of excercise, placed him on a quality weight maintenance kibble, and switched to a 'healthy hip' style treat. He has a wider rear leg stance than before and now does frog squats with no apparent discomfort. It is obvious from looking at him that something is off with his hips, but we have not had to medicate, and he moves much better than when we first got him two years ago. He is fully capable and can hold his own with the other members of our pack. This is proof positive that dogs with HD can still be wonderful companions.
As a side comment, I do not understand the propensity some kennels have to breed to specific coat, colouration, etc. If a combination produces healthy offsping, I am content. I also happen to like the Shikoku in all of its amazing combinations, be it red, black and tan, black sesame, sesame, red sesame, or cream.
Despite the occasional inflamed or negative posts, I find this forum to be an amazing resource, and love the fact that I am able to communicate with owners, and keep tabs on pups that have been placed; in effect, watching them grow. There truly are some wonderful members in the NK community.
As I already have two male rescues, and my long term goal is to establish a breed preservation program involving ten to twelve active dogs over three lines, we decided it was better to place Shogun in a forever home, and preserve some space here for my future plans. Unfortunately, I cannot keep everyone.
I have a wonderful family that shares my love of the breed, space for the kids and dogs to roam, and time to ensure all of our dogs get plenty of trail walks amongst the trees and family (ie, people) time, each day. What I do not have is funding sufficient to accelerate my kennel plans. For those who have never imported or worked with breeding the Shikoku, let me say, while it can be a very rewarding experience, it has its moments, and can be exceedingly expensive - case in point, Shogun. This is reflected in the average NA puppy price. It may well take a decade, but with help from other breeders and people like Shigeru, Kris, and Katja; I know I will get there.
Comments
"The late geneticist, Dr. John Armstrong of the University of Ottawa, Canada so elegantly wrote,8 In my view, one could probably subdivide inbreeding into three categories: background, historic and recent. The background level is dependent upon the number of founders. In a breed/population that started from six or eight founders, sometimes closely related, you cannot find individuals that are not related even if you breed as carefully as possible. Recent (or “close”) inbreeding is, to me, the breeding of sons to mothers, full siblings, and the like. When it isn’t done simply for the convenience of the breeder, the usual justification is that it is the only way to preserve type, or that it is an effective way of discovering problems in your line. Yes, genetic defects can be uncovered in this way, but in practice I don’t think many are or they are not recognized as such. Historic inbreeding results from uneven sampling from the population. This is most obvious with the males. The same few “popular” (well-promoted) individuals are used repeatedly, and many of the others are not used at all. The collection of genes from the latter may be lost to the population, particularly if it is small. Everyone becomes related to these popular sires and inbreeding becomes inevitable. What appears to happen is that slightly detrimental genes that individually might not make much of an impact start to accumulate in the population until breeders begin to notice that their litter sizes are smaller than they remember the old-timers reporting, they have difficulty getting a bitch pregnant and that various health problems seem to be turning up more often than in the past. Some may attribute these problems to diet, environmental toxins and the like, but the bulk of it is genetic [author’s emphasis]. This is what inbreeding depression is all about."
http://dogdimension.org/DiversitySite/thorp-vargas04.shtml
@brada1878 - I thought about editing that part about finding 'dog people' from dog shows to dog events and even media like breed specific FB and this forum. But I think it's more likely you'll find more people ready to breed in the dog show world with existing set-ups, no hang-ups about intact dogs, and a willingness to plop down some major money on foundation stock ... once they get past the "no health tests" barrier.
The other venues are great for finding people willing to contribute by taking individual dogs as pets or intact pets. Small scale rather than large scale.
That's just my loose thinking on this though. Nothing definate.
@lindsayt - SNPs can be used as markers. They don't measure every portion of the DNA, but diversity of SNPs can be extrapolated as diversity of the genome.
I wouldn't get too vested in this though as the value depends greatly on what SNPs are chosen. It's a tool for researchers who are trying locate and determine disease genes, but not so much for an individual breeder trying to find meaningful diverse mates. (Diversity in a region of a DNA that's only filler and not used for coding proteins doesn't do much.)
Then next portion of the comment then sums up what I was alluding to in my comment. Kennels in Europe, because a lot of them have outdoor kennels, have the facilities to accept an adult dog. Thus you know what you are getting as far as quality, you can get a proven breeder, and if you really put some effort into it, you can get the dog tested before it is sent to you. You do not have to worry about an adult dog not fitting in to an entirely new environment than it has ever experienced, being around other dogs, pets, and people, and being indoors.
I understand you're not saying do away with tests--as I understand it, you're pointing out that these tests are limited in use and may promote a kind of tunnel vision. But I'm saying as a person who buys a dog, I have to have some way of trying to get a healthy dog, and that is simply one part of it.
I understand that part of this discussion is that the Shikoku is in very bad shape as a breed, and that things might need to be done to promote genetic diversity. However, I'm still looking at from the point of view of someone who buys a dog and then might be faced, not only with a huge financial outlay to keep that dog alive and healthy, but also the sheer heartache of having to deal with an unhealthy dog. So part of my issue here is that regardless of what the breeder does to with his/her breeding program, s/he should be absolutely upfront about that, so the buyer can make an educated choice about whether to get that dog or not. It seems to me this has not always been the case here.
You have my empathy. And I don't know if any other breeder would have actually stepped up and said "Don't neuter him! I'll purchase him and take the risks."
Way back up, @poeticdragon mentioned that there is no breed health survey and people just don't know what the status of the hips are in Japan. Maybe Shogan is above the average. No one knows.
I would then suggest collecting him and storing his genetic material before neutering. Buy time to assess the health of the breed (or his pups) and then later make the decision.
With regards to inflicting misery on puppy buyers, maybe the pups from a test breeding should be kept by the breeder until the pups can be assessed. If the pup is affected, then the pup can be euthanized. If clear, the pup can be placed into a home. It makes for a crowded kennel in the short term though.
Yes, you can test for hips, and elbows, and eyes. No, as far as I can tell, we can't test for whatever issue it is that Fate & His brother [ & possibly another brother ] has, but do you know, that not one single shikoku breeder has EVER asked me what the signs were for Fate? Never have they asked me what are the exact symptoms, or when did they start to show up, and looking back, there were QUITE a few that showed up very early on.
Indeed, it's the opposite, when I first came out about Fate, it was made to look like a simple environmental issue, or I got private messaged that it was my fault, and I did xyz that caused it. [ they know who they are ]
But no, let's continue to nit-pick dogs because they have mild hips, or their colour is wrong, or their tail is set too high, or their ears too far back. That's more important than a fatal, degenerative, neurological issue that showed up in at least, confirmed, 2 out of 4 puppies in a litter.
I had to find out about Fate's brother through the Nihon Ken Forum, so imagine, you never know, how many other shikoku with this issue might be out there that the general public doesn't know about. Consider the Japanese culture when it comes to sick dogs, or dogs with issues, imagine how many are there that we don't know about.
There is a lot of sneakiness in this breed's community, and a lot of "Secrets" and bull shit politics no one wants to talk about. At the end of the day tho, those of us who get the fucked up puppies are the ones that get to suffer and watch them die.
Spent 3 years waiting for my shikoku puppy. Pay almost $3,000 for a shikoku puppy with shipping, and what do I get? Only heartache. Basically, I paid $1,000 for each year I get to spend with him. Would've paid more if it meant I got more time with him, but instead, I get to watch the rest of the breed go to hell and see if any more puppies pop up like him in the future. ~
I feel the prevalence of the OFA in dog breeding has created a type of distraction that allows breeders claim they "health test" while meanwhile they ignore the real important breed-specific tests.
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But, putting that aside, I think you're actually taking my comment out of context a bit. I was subtly referring to the Shikoku situation - culling a dog for an OFA "mild HD", while keeping a dog, and continuing to breed him, that's produced neurological health issues.
To me, culling like this seems more like a marketing move than an actual sincere act to try and improve the breed's health. "Look over here, I'm culling this dog from our program due to OFA mild HD. See I do health check!" ... Meanwhile breeding dogs that produce more severe health issues over here.
WRT to tests outside of OFA, while you can't test for seizures specifically, you can test for a lot of the things that cause seizures like hypoglycemia, thyroid dysfunction, and liver problems. You can also stress-test your dogs for bloat, and there are plenty of heart tests out there too.
If shopping for a breed with a tiny little population, like the Shikoku, then buyers should be made aware of the potential issues.
When the breeder is asked about health issues and testing, buyers should be told honestly the issues facing the breed and the issues found in the foundation stock of the breeder's dogs. So that then the puppy buyer can make an educated decision as to if they want to take the risk with the breed or not.
Hell, if they've found the Shikoku breed, then they must have done more research than the average puppy shopper - and therefore should have at least a mild understanding of the smallness of the breed's population.
Buying a very rare breed like the Shikoku, who is in a stage it's in, should be presented to puppy buyers as a "work in progress" and an effort to preserve the breed - and health issues in the foundation stock should be discussed openly and not kept secret.
It's my personal feeling that, while every breeder should strive to produce 100% healthy pups, every breeder WILL produce some health issues at some point - and it's how the breeder deals with those issues and their client that sets them apart from the mediocrity (the mainstream).
And yes, I 100% agree, that all breeders will produce dogs with health issues at some point, but how they deal with it makes all the difference. For me, just an "I'm so sorry this happened, and I'm taking it seriously and thinking about how this effects breeding plans" would have made all the difference for me. (And you know, my breeder blew me off, but it was another breeder, who I didn't buy a puppy from, but should have, who was the one who said "I'm so sorry, is there anything I can do to help?")
Osy, I'm really sorry, and also really angry about how you have been treated. It is devastating.
The only rare breed I've had (really the only dog I've had) was a Finnish Lapphund--which is and was a breed in a totally different place than the Shikoku (large and healthy--and health-tested--population in the country of origin, inbreeding tremendously discouraged, etc.), but was introduced to the US primarily through one very dedicated breeder despite some early (and later) rifts in the breed club. Essentially, it seems like what ends up happening is that one person does what they think is right regardless of what the club does. They keep careful records, are forthcoming about their dogs, are sensible and pragmatic about what they will or will not breed from, and show in whatever registry is available to them to try to attract other "dog people" to the breed in the hope that someday they won't have to go it alone. With time, other breeders come in who support what that single dedicated breeder stands for, and essentially a new version of the club (or an entirely new club) forms. So eventually collaboration becomes very possible... but there need to be people with whom to collaborate first.
The problem is, of course, that it takes a very special person to be that dedicated. It's a ton of time, money, and energy. The woman I referred to above had over 30 dogs for a long time, though she had never really wanted to go over 10, because that was the only possible way to have enough genetic diversity when practically nobody else was keeping intact dogs of the breed in the US. I don't even want to think about how much time and money she spent on bringing dogs over, showing them, screening homes, etc. Almost single-handedly, with a handful of much smaller "kennels" (usually just people with two or three intact pets they were willing to show and perhaps breed once) to help from time to time. It really does sound like the Shikoku needs someone like that, but I'm afraid such people are rarer than the Shikoku itself.
And like everyone else has said... what happened with Osy and Fate is reprehensible. Yes, all breeders will sometimes produce dogs with health problems... and how they handle that is absolutely what separates them from one another. Ignoring the problems, blaming the owner, just offering another pup without reevaluating the program that produced the problem in the first place... horrible, dangerous, and pointless. I'm really sorry for everyone who has had to deal with their dog's breeder blowing them off over stuff like that, even on top of feeling bad for them and their dogs having to deal with the issue in the first place...
(Apologies for the textwall)
They also suggested it might be Wobbler's.
That said, I would have more appreciated seeing it discussed, with the breeders, as a whole. Something done to find out what the issue is in the breed. Trying to figure out the cause / symptoms / etc. How to prevent it in the future. Ways to screen for it in the future. Being simply asked what were the early signs so they could detect it in future litters so others would not have to go through this. What it means for breeding. Instead, it gets ignored, unmentioned.
Most of all, I would have liked to have known beforehand, when Fate's bro told the breeder. They still have never confessed to me Fate's bro has an issue, and I have reason to believe, from 2nd hand knowledge, that Fate's 3rd brother also has this issue. A simple "hey, I don't know if you've had any issues, but Fate's littermate has been experiencing...xyz."
But anyway, that's beside the point. My whole point was, the breed is going in the wrong direction. There are worse things than "mild" hips to look at. As I said before, I would trade Fate's good looks & his neuro issues for the shittiest hips in the world, even if it required surgery.
The fact is, it seems, everyone would rather cull a dog for mild hips then breed a dog with good hips but it is "ugly as hell" by the standard. Let's face it, no one is importing "ugly standard" shikoku, they're importing the ones they think will show well, even tho it would probably be more cost-effective to increase the genepool to import at least SOME "ugly standard" shikoku. [ ETA: which would still be drop-dead gorgeous shikoku, BTW ]
Also, you have to look at how many shikoku have been imported in a year. I think @brada1878 has imported more kai ken [ & kishu & shikoku when you count the Sakura [?], Kaiju, & Nami ] in a year by himself more than all the NA breeders combined.
What does that say about the fate of the breed? ~
I don't expect my dogs to be physically perfect. They're dogs, and no living creature on this planet will ever 100% be perfect. [ I know I sure as hell am not ] That's just part of being alive. However, it would be nice to see a group of people actually give a damn instead of play games and ignore things, or pretend like they don't exist, or keep secrets, or...etc. ~
I worked at Petsmart and a man walked in with two of the most beautiful AA puppies. I spoke to him and complimented his dogs. He said that they were bred from a dog that had been dead for 11 years. The sperm was frozen before the death of the dog because a female of good quality couldn't be found at the time. They waited to find the perfect mate, even after the dog died.
Could this be an option with the Shikoku breed? I know it's expensive, but if the breed is that rare it could be worth it. We spend a ton of money on our dogs anyways and this could save an entire breed. That way, if a male is great for breeding but all the females that are of age are not, the great genes don't have to be lost. I haven't researched it, but I'm sure egg freezing is available as well for females.
Like I said, just a thought. If I'm off on this, just ignore me
And there were already attempts made with AI so it's past the question of whether the Japanese registries allow it or not?
@ttddinh I feel out of my element commenting on this type of thread. Normally with those feelings, I have blonde moments that follow.
I'm also reading a good book right now. It's called "Inside of a Dog" by Alexandra Horowitz. It goes into more, but I just finished the section on the origins of dogs. Like how they came from wolves, but also how they are not wolves and the selective breeding used to make the breeds we see today. The book helps me understand this topic more and it's a fabulous read so far.
In any case, think a lot of breeders take the approach if there isn't anything definitive or a disease to label, then they are off the hook. They are at a loss on what to do, so if they can't do anything why worry about it. Also agreed, as suggested, it sounds like a problem that needs continued investigation within the breed (club?) since it is such a serious issue.
As far as Shikoku breeders, do not know anything about them per se though, but I do know that overall many breeders will not disclose information about other clients that have purchased from them. Therefore, not having gained the info directly is not a surprise.
Actually there are those who really do not care, even when things DO go right, with a dog that they have sold or their dogs does well at kennel/home or venue. Once the dog is out of their care that's it, you will not hear from them again or receive responses. Who knows the reasoning for the lack of communication, the moon is not blue?…. people become offended for the damnedest of reasons, seemingly shunning those who would be willing to offer more. In the case of poor health, it's only human nature, who wants the ax dug in further…. personal pride is a big thing for many.
Again, I will say shunning others (on either side) does not help a breed overall though.
About hips:
I know another breed outside of japanese breeds that have had to pull themselves up from low numbers, and cross out of the breed even. Within that breed it is a general consensus having a low to poor hip score for right side or left is not the end of the world. I also know that breeding to better dogs and bitches and looking at OFA or X-rays has helped in certain kennels to reduce the propensity by looking into better options. Which most try to do. It seems to be making a dent within that breed for those who choose to use the tools.
Similar to the above, what it did not resolve though was undefined neurological issues, as well as epilepsy and late age onset seizures or cardiac. Some people address that, others don't as a matter of personal preference. Getting the word out is half the battle, as is good communication. Not every breeder will have good communication skill sets with their current or past clients. (As a side note: Often times breeders take an island approach to avoid the battering and tomato throwing that ill produced or poor intentioned information can cause. Keep in mind media is cold and adept at presenting information out of context too.)
Noted above, I realize not everyone feels positively inclined about specific testing or test results, BUT, there is something to the fact that at least looking at some things is better than not looking at anything at all. Isn't that a step in the right direction? There is something in every program that could be done better or wiser, even in the people skill factor. It's just part of assessment.
In terms of ideology, other breeders philosophy may not be my own philosophy on culling, I know I have to keep this in mind….. In this regard the two ends may never meet…. Their expectations my not be my expectations. Unfortunately, from what I have seen, over time this is were the petty riffs can come in, along with ostracizing others.
The Shikoku may not be the first breed to wane, hopefully it will have a resurgence with a new set of vested priorities down the path…. Big hope is it won't be so far off the path with no point of return. The links on diversity are great but not everyone will vest in that which is the reality, wether it be cost, effort, ignorance, or pride that precludes it.
Open information:
Agreed, open disclosure on health is something that has to remain available to allow weighing by each individual that ventures into the Shikoku breed. Specifically knowing full well the potential long term costs may actually be high in developing their programs and in ownership of the breed.
Yes, I concur, it appears less and less people are going to have a larger reputable kennels to experiment and hold dogs to full maturity, it just the landscape of America at the moment…. regional zoning is going to preclude that in a great many places.
Snf
UKC allowed this and in 5 generations, it was considered pure.
There was also the Dalmation backcross project where a Dal was bred to a German Pointer(?) whose line ridded itself of Uric stones, so prevalent in the American Population.
In 5 gens, the breed was genetically pure. It was the Dal Club of America who said the descending lines could not be registered with AKC because they were not pure enough.
Funnily enough, they are now being registered in the UK:-)
Actually, I agree that hips are a good start but so mild compared with VKH or Fate's horrible problem.
There has been a gene found in the Turveren for seizures, which was in the background of the reconstituted breed of the Chinook. But so far no connection.
I would be happy to initiate a health committee for the Shikoku and I don't have a Shikoku. But those "Secrets" about health and emphasis on winning is a criteria I don't like. Thanks to Nico, we have something to go on, and that's a start. But from where Osy sits, I would think a TOTAL REFUND (with shipping) AND another puppy would have been kinder.
Recently, I wanted a pup for breeding from Europe, (Nico's litter), but with airfare and price it was about 4300-4500 and I could not afford it.
I am hoping that the Shikoku might have an open health registry, but am I a dreamer?
I am also interested in Shigeru's recent cross.
Britain
Sorry for taking so long to chime in, I have not had the time to stay on top of the forum posts and comments the past few months. I co-own Shogun with @Edgewood and Katja.
First, please know, the Shogun x Kimi breeding had more to do with timing and my desire to retire Kimi than anything else.
My family and I have owned Kimi for a number of years, and would like to have her as a pet only member of the family. Kimi has produced a few wonderful litters, and is a very healthy, well tempered dog. She is loved and adored by everyone in my family; as are all of our dogs. We have no current plans to spay her, and with it having been discovered that Shogun has HD, there will likely be atleast one more breeding in her future with another 'yet to be determined' male.
Shogun stayed with my family from the age of 10 months to 18 months, at which point he was to travel to Akashima, finish off his Champion status on the show circuit, and have his health checks done at 18 to 24 months.
When Kimi came into season shortly before Shogun was to travel to Akashima, I let Katja know. Despite his young age, as Shogun came from excellent stock in Japan, has a fantastic temperament, and moves extremely well, it was decided to let a breeding take place. I still cannot believe Shogun had a bad hip x-ray, if you saw him in person, you would know what I mean. He is an extremely strong and agile young dog.
The breeding was a success, and I took Kimi to Akashima in late March so that Katja could oversee the birth and subsequent placement of the pups. As Shogun is much loved by my family, I kept him here until Kimi was ready to go; when the pups were ~8 weeks old. This is why the prospective pup owners were not informed ahead of time. Katja did not yet have Shogun, and he was not tested until after the pups were placed.
Katja is committed to keeping her breeding stock healthy, and once it was determined that Shogun had HD, the decision was made by the three of us to place him in a pet only home. I am saddened that he has subsequently been neutered; however, I understand the reasoning. I had requested keeping the 'pick of the litter' pup that was no long going to Australia, due to the potential for bad hips, but it had already placed. I for one, was willing to take a chance on the pups being fine.
The breeding that produced Fate and siblings was Kuma x Aiko. Two of the pups in the litter were notably smaller than the others. Kuma has sired many healthy litters, and Aiko was fixed and homed so the breeding combination that produced pups with such sad neurological conditions could not be repeated. One of my Shikoku, Yoshi, is a male rescue with moderate HD - both his parents had Good to Excellent OFA scores; even still, Katja never repeated the breeding that produced him. Katja is passionate about the breed, has done a lot to help the NA population get to where it is at, and in all of my dealings with her, has always been up front and no nonsense. She has helped bring recognition to the breed, both by attending shows, puppy classes, etc and raising breed awareness, to working with the CKC to properly establish the Shikoku as a fully recognized and registered breed, as well as hosting visitors who would like to learn more and meet a Shikoku in person. I consider her to be an ethical breeder and a fantastic person.
Regardless, despite his HD, Yoshi is an excellent dog, and though having had to be medicated for hip related pain by his previous owner (before we got him), we no longer have any issues. We adjusted his activity level to less agressive forms of excercise, placed him on a quality weight maintenance kibble, and switched to a 'healthy hip' style treat. He has a wider rear leg stance than before and now does frog squats with no apparent discomfort. It is obvious from looking at him that something is off with his hips, but we have not had to medicate, and he moves much better than when we first got him two years ago. He is fully capable and can hold his own with the other members of our pack. This is proof positive that dogs with HD can still be wonderful companions.
As a side comment, I do not understand the propensity some kennels have to breed to specific coat, colouration, etc. If a combination produces healthy offsping, I am content. I also happen to like the Shikoku in all of its amazing combinations, be it red, black and tan, black sesame, sesame, red sesame, or cream.
Despite the occasional inflamed or negative posts, I find this forum to be an amazing resource, and love the fact that I am able to communicate with owners, and keep tabs on pups that have been placed; in effect, watching them grow. There truly are some wonderful members in the NK community.
As I already have two male rescues, and my long term goal is to establish a breed preservation program involving ten to twelve active dogs over three lines, we decided it was better to place Shogun in a forever home, and preserve some space here for my future plans. Unfortunately, I cannot keep everyone.
I have a wonderful family that shares my love of the breed, space for the kids and dogs to roam, and time to ensure all of our dogs get plenty of trail walks amongst the trees and family (ie, people) time, each day. What I do not have is funding sufficient to accelerate my kennel plans. For those who have never imported or worked with breeding the Shikoku, let me say, while it can be a very rewarding experience, it has its moments, and can be exceedingly expensive - case in point, Shogun. This is reflected in the average NA puppy price. It may well take a decade, but with help from other breeders and people like Shigeru, Kris, and Katja; I know I will get there.
-Mac.