That was fast! I hope things are going well with the new additions! Will you post updates on their development here, or a new thread? I would definitely like to follow along.
I'm actually curious about the kishu color genetics now. (I'm not sure if there is a better thread for this.) I was not expecting the pups to be white, so that's interesting.
The genetics behind white are, in theory, pretty simple. What we call "white" in the Japanese breeds is genetically labelled "recessive red", as I understand it. Recessive red restricts the growth of black hairs, so the coat is left white or cream.
Recessive red is defined as "e" in genetics. Wild-type (normal pigment) is defined as "E", in simplest terms.
Nami is Ee (mother was "colored" and father was "white", so since Nami is not white, it is safe to say she is Ee) Taro is ee (white)
There was a 50/50 chance per puppy to be white or colored. Any colored puppies Nami produced would have been Ee, so they would have carried white anyway.
The coin just flipped in favor of white this time around.
NOW... what determines the pattern of a yushoku dog is totally different. Furthermore, every "white" dog does have a genetic yushoku pattern - so puppies inherit their own pattern from the sire/dam, but since they're white, we can't tell what that pattern is. SO, theoretically, if Taro was carrying say... brindle... black and tan... sesame... we would never know. Because of that, we have no idea what these puppies are, genetically, without testing them. We only know what Nami's phenotype is and what pattern they could have inherited.
Great response, thanks! Since I didn't know what color Nami's parents are, I didn't think about her being a carrier. Then the Punnett square is simple, Ee x ee = 2 Ee and 2 ee. 50/50.
Puppies! They are so pink! And Nami looks so sleepy
@zandrame - yep! There could be other things that affect the white coloration or the frequency of colored dogs, but I think it's simply the frequency of white in the genepool.
@Bootz - It's my first litter. It was a big surprise! I was a little scared with the first pup because Nami did not do anything for it. I think she was panicking - and i'm sure I wasn't making it better by staring at her. I watched this alive and wriggling puppy start to go limp before I stepped in and ripped the sack and took over for her. I had to do all of them except the very last one, but she was good to them after I got them cleaned up.
She's still a bit thin from the puppy weight loss. Her coat is ridiculously thin too, right now, thanks to the puppies. She was a lot worse. She's starting to look like herself again, though!
I've posted these all over FB but I figured I'd share here.
Nami and I attended our first lure coursing event today. It was an open field when I got there and I didn't notice until after I registered her to run so it was pretty stressful to put so much trust in her when I'd hardly worked in recall with her, but that ended up being the least of our problems today, lol.
Nami was actually rather bored of the lure. Her first run, she went faster in a sprint than I think the operator gave her credit for - she cut the lure off and tripped over it when she tried to catch it and became distracted after that. I got her to finish and then it took me a bit to get her back - she kept jogging around and trying to sniff around for something better to chase after, I think.
Her second run went better and she was into it for the first two turns, but started becoming disinterested in the third turn. By the fourth turn, she was still going, but was much less enthusiastic about the whole thing. She came right back to me on her second run with a bit of coaxing and waited to get leashed up.
She won one ribbon today, so she'll need two more before she has that "CAT" after her name. I think I'll do it again with her to see if it's the right thing for her - she was definitely more interested on her second run, so maybe she'll get into it. I dunno.
I'm really proud of her, regardless of anything, and it was a fun thing to experience together.
That's pretty cool! It probably wasn't as exciting for her since she's used to hunting real animals. And the operator needs to do their job to keep the lure interesting.
But yay! Would she be the first Kishu to get a title?
I'm not sure, @zandrame - Carleen encourages her puppy buyers to participate in events, but I don't know of lure coursing is one of them. If not, I suspect she will be!
Nami went off-leash for the first time the other day. She did pretty well. She was very responsive if I was within 20 feet. If I was outside of that range, she'd stop and turn and see where I was at, but she would not come to me. I think she'll be all set for hiking in the spring (I do very little hiking in the winter, or she might be ready for woodsy off-lead hikes sooner.)
I haven't posted these here yet. It seems like I've posted them everywhere under the sun, but I guess I have a lot of mediums to keep up with lately. Here's our latest adventure...
Mame-Nami attended the pet expo with me.... we did the dog show thing again. The three ribbons on the table are just from her taking her breed (no other contenders). The rosette is from us inexplicably taking 4th place in the group placement (FCI groups - spitz and primitive). There were about 8 dogs in the group. The judge was pretty nice and easy-going and liked the way she moved, which was the assessment at the previous show we went to. Nami's got the moves! You know, when she's actually paying attention to where she's going.
We got to do a "Meet the Breed" at the expo. Nami met a lot of new friends and especially loved the guys at the rock-climbing booth and all of the kids who were at the event. She made a few dog-friends (a Field Spaniel and a Shar Pei), but ignored most of them. She only had a problem with one dog there - a Shiloh Shepherd puppy who was ignoring her the whole time. I dunno. She just decided she hated him.
The Shiloh Shepherd's owner was a very nice Japanese woman who had heard of Kishu Ken (and seemed to believe they were dangerous), but never met one. She was looking at Nami like she KNEW she was a Japanese dog, but couldn't figure out which one or if she was mixed. She knew my friend's Shiba right away, of course. After she heard that Nami was a Kishu Ken, she got very wide-eyed and somewhat fearful until she saw how Nami acted around people. It was a bit unfortunate that Nami disliked her dog - Nami reacting to her dog made her fearful again until we could smooth things over. I do wonder if part of Nami's issue with the Shiloh was that the owner was fearful and both dogs were feeding off of her/each other? Nami wasn't explosive-reactive, just a bit snarky, and the dogs were always at least 3 feet apart, so nothing happened.
All in all, it was a fun experience to hang out with friends and talk about the breeds.
And here she is protesting being left outside while I get coffee.
...and ten minutes later, when she decided to jump through the fence to try and get a pigeon after I stopped to eat my breakfast.
Great story, and yay Nami! It's ok if she randomly decides to not like a particular dog...it may not be as random as you think (or maybe it is...you know how some people just give you a bad vibe for no reason?)
I'm glad she did so well with everyone, and she looks so pleased with herself Except for when she was waiting for you to get coffee...Nami says "oh woooe is me!" xP
Comments
Will you post updates on their development here, or a new thread? I would definitely like to follow along.
I'm actually curious about the kishu color genetics now. (I'm not sure if there is a better thread for this.) I was not expecting the pups to be white, so that's interesting.
Recessive red is defined as "e" in genetics.
Wild-type (normal pigment) is defined as "E", in simplest terms.
Nami is Ee (mother was "colored" and father was "white", so since Nami is not white, it is safe to say she is Ee)
Taro is ee (white)
There was a 50/50 chance per puppy to be white or colored. Any colored puppies Nami produced would have been Ee, so they would have carried white anyway.
The coin just flipped in favor of white this time around.
NOW... what determines the pattern of a yushoku dog is totally different. Furthermore, every "white" dog does have a genetic yushoku pattern - so puppies inherit their own pattern from the sire/dam, but since they're white, we can't tell what that pattern is. SO, theoretically, if Taro was carrying say... brindle... black and tan... sesame... we would never know. Because of that, we have no idea what these puppies are, genetically, without testing them. We only know what Nami's phenotype is and what pattern they could have inherited.
Here are puppies.
Puppies! They are so pink! And Nami looks so sleepy
The babies are adorable
@zandrame - yep! There could be other things that affect the white coloration or the frequency of colored dogs, but I think it's simply the frequency of white in the genepool.
@Bootz - It's my first litter. It was a big surprise! I was a little scared with the first pup because Nami did not do anything for it. I think she was panicking - and i'm sure I wasn't making it better by staring at her. I watched this alive and wriggling puppy start to go limp before I stepped in and ripped the sack and took over for her. I had to do all of them except the very last one, but she was good to them after I got them cleaned up.
Nami and I attended our first lure coursing event today. It was an open field when I got there and I didn't notice until after I registered her to run so it was pretty stressful to put so much trust in her when I'd hardly worked in recall with her, but that ended up being the least of our problems today, lol.
Nami was actually rather bored of the lure. Her first run, she went faster in a sprint than I think the operator gave her credit for - she cut the lure off and tripped over it when she tried to catch it and became distracted after that. I got her to finish and then it took me a bit to get her back - she kept jogging around and trying to sniff around for something better to chase after, I think.
Her second run went better and she was into it for the first two turns, but started becoming disinterested in the third turn. By the fourth turn, she was still going, but was much less enthusiastic about the whole thing. She came right back to me on her second run with a bit of coaxing and waited to get leashed up.
She won one ribbon today, so she'll need two more before she has that "CAT" after her name. I think I'll do it again with her to see if it's the right thing for her - she was definitely more interested on her second run, so maybe she'll get into it. I dunno.
I'm really proud of her, regardless of anything, and it was a fun thing to experience together.
But yay! Would she be the first Kishu to get a title?
I'm not sure, @zandrame - Carleen encourages her puppy buyers to participate in events, but I don't know of lure coursing is one of them. If not, I suspect she will be!
Mame-Nami attended the pet expo with me.... we did the dog show thing again. The three ribbons on the table are just from her taking her breed (no other contenders). The rosette is from us inexplicably taking 4th place in the group placement (FCI groups - spitz and primitive). There were about 8 dogs in the group. The judge was pretty nice and easy-going and liked the way she moved, which was the assessment at the previous show we went to. Nami's got the moves! You know, when she's actually paying attention to where she's going.
We got to do a "Meet the Breed" at the expo. Nami met a lot of new friends and especially loved the guys at the rock-climbing booth and all of the kids who were at the event. She made a few dog-friends (a Field Spaniel and a Shar Pei), but ignored most of them. She only had a problem with one dog there - a Shiloh Shepherd puppy who was ignoring her the whole time. I dunno. She just decided she hated him.
The Shiloh Shepherd's owner was a very nice Japanese woman who had heard of Kishu Ken (and seemed to believe they were dangerous), but never met one. She was looking at Nami like she KNEW she was a Japanese dog, but couldn't figure out which one or if she was mixed. She knew my friend's Shiba right away, of course. After she heard that Nami was a Kishu Ken, she got very wide-eyed and somewhat fearful until she saw how Nami acted around people. It was a bit unfortunate that Nami disliked her dog - Nami reacting to her dog made her fearful again until we could smooth things over. I do wonder if part of Nami's issue with the Shiloh was that the owner was fearful and both dogs were feeding off of her/each other? Nami wasn't explosive-reactive, just a bit snarky, and the dogs were always at least 3 feet apart, so nothing happened.
All in all, it was a fun experience to hang out with friends and talk about the breeds.
And here she is protesting being left outside while I get coffee.
...and ten minutes later, when she decided to jump through the fence to try and get a pigeon after I stopped to eat my breakfast.
I'm glad she did so well with everyone, and she looks so pleased with herself