Back on the hunt for the right puppy
Hi there!
I posted a few years back asking about which breed would best suit my lifestyle. Since then I ended up falling in love with a lab rottie possibly chow mix that I was fostering through my work at a dog boarding/training facility. He's great, not needy like many labs can be and just an overall great companion. However, he tore his acl and after getting the surgery done he's much better but still is not the jogging partner that I was hoping to have. He also can't go on hikes longer than approx 8 miles or he will be stiff for the next few days.
I'm looking to add a member to the family that will be able to keep up with our active lifestyle. I don't jog or hike every day but do like to do something active 2-3 times a week at least. However, I extremely value a dog that can be calm and content while at home and is able to relax. My dog will be constantly exposed to many different environments as I would take him with me everywhere but need for him to settle once we get home. This is big as it drives me nuts to have a busy body in the home when everyone is trying to relax. I'm looking for a dog that is independent and doesn't need me to entertain him every waking minute of the day.
Since I work around other dogs I need him to be at least tolerant towards other dogs. I would hate for my dog to be completely uncomfortable all the time because he is constantly being exposed to them. He doesn't necessarily have to play or enjoy them since he won't be loose with them but will need to learn how to cope with other dogs in his environment.
I'd prefer a medium sized dog that is preferably indifferent towards strangers. Friendly and also wary is fine with me but aggressive would not work for my lifestyle. I know a lot of this is determined with socialization but genetics plays a huge role as well so want to make sure I'm setting both myself and the dog up for success with the expectations I have for him.
I absolutely love the shikoku but am concerned about his dog reactivity. I've been fortunate enough to meet a couple of them, one of which was very reactive towards dogs but fairly easily redirected and trainable. The other was not and was fine with other dogs.
Based on this information, sorry if it's a bit long, but would any of the nihon ken breeds be a good match for me? I don't know much about some of the other breeds on here other than the shiba, akita and a bit about the Kai ken although I've never met one myself. I think both the akita and shiba wouldn't be the best fit for me but would be open to either of them based on all of your recommendations. Also are there any non-nihon ken breeds that you think would be a good match that are primitive in nature like the Kai, shikoku or akita?
Thank you so much for taking the time to read all of this! This forum has been such a great resource for me over the past few years and I really look forward to hearing back from some of you!
Ps: I am in no rush and in fact looking to wait at least a year or two...or even three for the right dog. We just moved in to our new house on a wooded lot and want to be fully settled there first.
I posted a few years back asking about which breed would best suit my lifestyle. Since then I ended up falling in love with a lab rottie possibly chow mix that I was fostering through my work at a dog boarding/training facility. He's great, not needy like many labs can be and just an overall great companion. However, he tore his acl and after getting the surgery done he's much better but still is not the jogging partner that I was hoping to have. He also can't go on hikes longer than approx 8 miles or he will be stiff for the next few days.
I'm looking to add a member to the family that will be able to keep up with our active lifestyle. I don't jog or hike every day but do like to do something active 2-3 times a week at least. However, I extremely value a dog that can be calm and content while at home and is able to relax. My dog will be constantly exposed to many different environments as I would take him with me everywhere but need for him to settle once we get home. This is big as it drives me nuts to have a busy body in the home when everyone is trying to relax. I'm looking for a dog that is independent and doesn't need me to entertain him every waking minute of the day.
Since I work around other dogs I need him to be at least tolerant towards other dogs. I would hate for my dog to be completely uncomfortable all the time because he is constantly being exposed to them. He doesn't necessarily have to play or enjoy them since he won't be loose with them but will need to learn how to cope with other dogs in his environment.
I'd prefer a medium sized dog that is preferably indifferent towards strangers. Friendly and also wary is fine with me but aggressive would not work for my lifestyle. I know a lot of this is determined with socialization but genetics plays a huge role as well so want to make sure I'm setting both myself and the dog up for success with the expectations I have for him.
I absolutely love the shikoku but am concerned about his dog reactivity. I've been fortunate enough to meet a couple of them, one of which was very reactive towards dogs but fairly easily redirected and trainable. The other was not and was fine with other dogs.
Based on this information, sorry if it's a bit long, but would any of the nihon ken breeds be a good match for me? I don't know much about some of the other breeds on here other than the shiba, akita and a bit about the Kai ken although I've never met one myself. I think both the akita and shiba wouldn't be the best fit for me but would be open to either of them based on all of your recommendations. Also are there any non-nihon ken breeds that you think would be a good match that are primitive in nature like the Kai, shikoku or akita?
Thank you so much for taking the time to read all of this! This forum has been such a great resource for me over the past few years and I really look forward to hearing back from some of you!
Ps: I am in no rush and in fact looking to wait at least a year or two...or even three for the right dog. We just moved in to our new house on a wooded lot and want to be fully settled there first.
Comments
At dog events, or in town, my guys can ignore most dogs and be friendly and playful to the ones they prefer. I live very rurally, so they don't have the same extensive socialization that others' Kai will have, so if anything a Kai with a more consistent and varied social upbringing would probably be better than mine (Matsu's sister Sumiko is an urban Kai and quite a comfortable social girl!). Both of mine have CGC titles, Juno has CGCA (advanced CGC) and Matsu is the first Kai Ken to pass the ATTS (probably also the only one to attempt it, so FWIW...) so you can do a lot with Kai, just be conscious of their genetics to avoid shy parents as Kai (as a breed population in North America) can be a mixed bag from very shy/spooky to quite easygoing, or aloof. Look for puppies raised with a lot of thought toward socialization and variety of experience with sounds, objects, handling, etc. by their breeder. And see if you can meet some! We may know a Kai owner near you?
Thank you so much for the quick and in depth response! I'm so appreciative for all the insight!
I love the train ability that it sounds like the Kai possesses. I still want a companion that wants to do things with me and likes to train even though I value independence in a dog.
As for the jogging, that isn't the most important thing for me to do with my dog, I would just like one with the ability and stamina to be able to keep up with more strenuous exercise than my current dog can handle.
Do you or anyone else know what the main differences are between the Kai and the shikoku? I've heard a couple times that the Kai tend to have more energy, is this the case?
Thanks again for all your help!
Oh and I live in the greater seattle area by the way.
That's not to say a kai could not be a jogging dog, but I know mine is far too interested in scents for jogging.
Nero and several other kai on the forums have 'zoomies.' Crazy energy bursts where they basically run in circles over and over. There are probably a few videos even posted LOL. Nero gets his...after a walk and especially after a poop. Go figure.
He is a fantastic companion dog, always wanting to be near the family.
As for socialization Nero sees a lot of dogs in the neighborhood and went thru all the training up to and including his Canine Good Citizen. He LOVES other dogs. Almost too much. He's just an overly friendly guy and that can be overwhelming to some dogs. Again though he is exposed at least visually to other dogs daily due to the apartment environment.
I'd have to say Nero isn't really very independent. He needs stimulation and attention. He needs to play and be played with. He is crazy intelligent. When he wants to play, he wants your attention and will insist upon it. It's a matter of routine that he knows who will walk him at what time and who will play with him. We don't really baby him (well maybe a little) and sometimes he needs to be told now is not a good time, but for me it's a great thing because he breaks me out of the moment and reminds me what is important.
I am in Puyallup and have Shibas, and now a Hokkaido. There is a really nice Kai near me also, so if you wanted to come meet those breeds and see how they are, you are welcome to. There is a couple Kai closer to Seattle also, and I think 1 Shikoku older puppy.
Tbh your requirements sound a little exclusive of most of the NK breeds, but there may be some individuals of those breeds who would fit that...you may want to contact individual breeders of those breeds to see if their personal dogs may be suited to your lifestyle. Kai often do well in groups, but just as often they don't or they need management, however they won't want to be separated from you.
Shiba and Akita have the benefit of numbers and many breeders, and I have met American Akita from specific breeders here who have very friendly non demanding Akita who do well with other dogs, same for Shibas. My Shibas are good in groups and most of them would be fine in a daycare setting, and there are breeders in the area who daycare Shibas in large groups successfully.
I'll see if I can hit a few points from your initial post. If I miss anything feel free to ask.
He basically has two settings, on and off. He can be relaxed inside, and is often, but he has his moments when he is into everything. He doesn't necessarily need you to entertain him, but he needs something to entertain him and he will find it, if you don't give him something to do. Keeping him tired out helps tremendously.
Not sure how he would be running, he is a bit young still, so my wife hasn't tried. She has taken him on some short race walks though. He is OK at this, but if there is something good to smell that will take priority so progress goes in fits and starts. He loves hiking though and will go forever if you let him, just as long as there is some good sniff time.
He is dog reactive. To a large extent I believe this is due to his lack of socialization due to the CDC import restrictions. We applied for a confinement agreement which stipulated he not interact with other dogs or people until 16 weeks. If I had it to do over again I would have worked out something to keep him in Canada until 16 weeks to get proper socialization, or just ignored the confinement agreement and risked whatever fine they would have imposed had they checked up on it.
Having said that, it is manageable if he gets his own space. I just don't think he will be able to freely play with other dogs. He gets along fine with our dogs so I think had we been able to get him out and about the reactivity may have been minimized or non existent.
lindsayt, why do you say that my requirements exclude most of the nihon ken breeds? Is it the jogging or me wanting my dog to be able to tolerate dogs in his environment? Just to clarify, I don't need him to get along with every dog he sees, but rather not fire off if he's in his crate and another dog walks by or be able to not go into full attack mode when he sees another dog on leash. Much of this is more than likely trainable but I just want to know which breeds tolerate other dogs in their area the least? Sorry if I'm not wording this part well. I don't expect them to be a fun loving daycare dog that loves other dogs, I really just need him to tolerate them of that makes sense.
Valkyrii- thank you for sharing soo much info on Nero. I saw his pictures. He's a beautiful young dog! Almost sounds too much for me though haha. I love a dog that is inquisitive about the world but independent enough that they don't need me there all the time to entertain.
Yo_eddy- how much space does Yuki need with other dogs? Can he ignore them if they're not too much in his face and on leash? Also, when he is entertaining hi make what does that look like? Does he get into trouble like many huskies will? And I would love to meet yuki but I know if I do I would absolutely fall in love! Just like I did with the other 2 Shikokus I've met. Love the breed just hoping they're the best fit for my lifestyle.
Thanks again everyone! You all are so helpful!!
Entertaining himself looks like this
He has developed an affinity for ripping apart paper. He found out he can counter surf so nothing is safe. Working on that, but I don't think he gets the point. Toilet paper rolls are a favorite as well. He also pesters the little dogs; he doesn't understand why they don't want to play all the time. For the most part he leaves other things alone, although the pull tabs on shoes are evidently particularly tasty. Shoes have their own room now
Navydog- thank you for the description of your Kai! Nice to hear that she did ok running! I'm not an avid jogger or anything, certainly not looking for Husky type jogging partner. Just would like one that is physically able to do that on occasion. Also lots of hiking as well!
I really feel like the Akita would match the home mellowness that I'm looking for but health wise wouldn't be great to do a lot of hard physical exercise with. Also the size may be too big especially if he turned out to be dog aggressive and was hard to manage. Any thoughts on this anyone? I love their personalities but find that my needs and lifestyle wouldn't make the breed a good match for me right now which is disappointing since I love the breed so much.
Lindsayt- you mentioned some good akita breeders that might fit my needs. Would you mind sharing a bit more on this? The akita was the breed that first drew me to the rest of the nihon ken breeds. I just gave up on the idea of owning them because of how territorial and 'dominant' I've been told and have experienced them being. Would love to learn more though about some potential breeders with good temperaments on their dogs.
I think Shibas might be a little too independent for me...the dozen or so that I met seemed to careless what their owners were doing or about people in general. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this as I've never lived with one. Also concerned on the size. Might be slightly too small for me.
That leaves the Kai, Shikoku and Hokkaido. I know the least amount about the Hokkaido so other than some of the posts on here and online descriptions I'm very uneducated on the breed.
Sorry this is so long again. Thank you all for sharing and shedding some light on your dogs and helping me come to a well educated choice.
Personally, I'd suggest you look into a Siberian Husky from a show line kennel who also titles their dogs in Obedience or Rally, or possibly a rescue that's a few years old. Huskies were bred to be dog and human social, are independent but also obedient given the right training, and will enjoy the same outdoor activities you do so long as they stay on leash. So long as they have another dog to play with, they have a good off switch in the home. Some can get destructive when bored but crate training, play, and exercise work well to curb that issue. I know quite a few people who bring their huskies everywhere they go, one even uses their husky as a service dog for medical issues and emotional support.
Tom Knobel
Port Orchard, WA
Mainly, I say this because of the following;
"Since I work around other dogs I need him to be at least tolerant towards other dogs. I would hate for my dog to be completely uncomfortable all the time because he is constantly being exposed to them."
---> I think it'd be a HUGE gamble to take with any NK. Can they be sociable? Sure. But it's like a 10% chance of getting [ any ] medium sized-NK that would do well in a doggy daycare situation. Of all four [ Hokkaido, Kishu, Kai, Shikoku ] kai seem to be the most dog-dog social, however, even the most social of the lot may not be equipped to handle "doggy daycare" scenarios every day. While you might, MAYBE, POSSIBLY, find a pup who is able to deal with this scenario, the odds are highly unfavorable.
I remember for a long time, I believed the dog reactivity, or even just dog aggression, was because of poor training, lack of socialization, etc. However, at the end of the day, while raising a pup is both nature AND nurture, nature usually wins. My kishu girl & shikoku boy both LOVED other dogs until they hit around ~1 year of age. They were socialized FAR more then my dutch shepherds, never had a bad experience, etc. and yet, that switch went off. My Kishu gal now HATES 95% of other dogs, male or female, intact or not, on her own turf or out hiking, and genuinely wishes to kill them. It's not what I would call "reactivity" it's pure aggression. She is the most confident dog we have.
Out shikoku boy, before he passed away, was OK with other dogs, as long as they didn't touch him. As a pup, he loved other dogs, but as an adult, if they touched him, all bets were off.
With their own "pack," ie: my other 3 dogs [ all Dutch Shepherds, and possibly the most dog-social dogs you'll ever meet who self-handicap in play regularly ] my Nihon Ken were tolerate of puppies, until they hit about 3 months old, then they are by far the instigators in dog-dog arguments. And I'm speaking of all of these 5 dogs being under 4.5 years old at the time. Let alone new dogs coming into the house or going elsewhere. [ my Dutchies love new dogs, they're the new Best Friends Forever with them, my NK? Hell no. ]
"My dog will be constantly exposed to many different environments as I would take him with me everywhere but need for him to settle once we get home. This is big as it drives me nuts to have a busy body in the home when everyone is trying to relax. "
&
" I extremely value a dog that can be calm and content while at home and is able to relax"
---> Neither my Kishu nor my Shikoku are what I would consider "calm" in the house. We could bike, hike, throw ball, etc. for 3+ hours straight, and they would still come into the house and do zoomies, wrestle, etc. for another hour. 15 minute break and they're good to go and start up again running around, playing, tugging, or getting into mischief. And both followed us around, whether it was to go to the bathroom, get a drink of water, etc. If we were sitting and watching the TV, aka, not doing anything, the pups would still be walking around, trying to get into naughtiness, etc. Even after biking at full speed for 3+ miles.
"I'd prefer a medium sized dog that is preferably indifferent towards strangers. "
---> My Kishu girl HATED people. The day we brought her home she growled and bore teeth at every person she saw. It took at least 6+ months of solid socializing [ 1+ hours everyday and enough treats to make her fat ] to get her to calm down around people. Now, she is the opposite. She FREAKS OUT when she sees people, wanting treats, love, pets, etc. So still not "calm" or "indifferent" by any stretch. My shikoku boy was the same, however, he never feared people, he had just always LOVE LOVE LOVED them. Still not calm at all.
While I've not owned Kai or Hokkaido myself, I've met enough Kai & Shikoku [ and heard enough stories from close friends who do have Kishu & Hokkaido ] to know that what you *want* from these breeds you have a very, VERY, low chance of getting. Maybe 15+ years from now when breeders here, stateside, are breeding towards more "compatible" traits with what folks in the US want [ vs what Japanese breeders breed for, which are very different. ]
Oh & re: jogging; both my NK sucked at it and biking. They constantly pulled the other direction and tore up their paws. Not fun for them or us vs my Dutchies who run just because they love running. For NK, it's about all the smells / sights / sounds, not about running itself. ~
@lindsayt is in the area as well and I am sure she will not mind you meeting her dogs too. All our Shibas are related, but they all are pretty even tempered.
From your expansion here, I'd guess that you might like a Kai a bit better if you find the right Kai for you - as others have said. Most of the medium-sized NK are probably not going to work without finding the *right individual*, which can be a gamble - and if that pup doesn't end up right for what you were expecting, then one of two things will basically happen - either you'll adapt to what your dog needs (if you really want the breed and can't live without it) or you'll be unhappy with what you've gotten yourself into.
My Shikoku is good with other dogs and could go to daycare, but he is rude in social situations even to the dogs that he really enjoys and needs frequent breaks to give the dogs time away from him and to keep him from getting too overstimulated. I had a large office he could relax in when I was working at the daycare, which was probably the only reason I could bring him TO daycare. He doesn't like jogging, either, but that might be a him-thing. He likes adventures at his own pace. He IS more biddable than my Kishu, though, but I think he gets overstimulated/reacts sooner than my Kishu do.
My Kishu are hit and miss. My adult Kishu either likes a dog or she does not, and when she does not, she is deadly serious about disliking the dog. As long as dogs aren't in her face, she'll flat out ignore them. She is not a dog-social dog. She doesn't really want to be dog-social. She likes people far better. She will jog with me just for the sake of running/jogging, though - as will my other Kishu (though my other Kishu will pull or get distracted, at times).
My adolescent Kishu is friendly with other dogs, but she's about a year and change and that MIGHT change with time. I have had her in daycare where she gets too overstimulated. She's never been rude and always plays nicely, but she tends to "shut down" toward the end of a long day. I wouldn't put her through it every day, all the time.
Unlike Osy, I think my dogs are pretty low-key in the house. They don't do much. It's when they know they're going out to do something that they're bonkers and don't stop until after whatever adventure we're to go out on. Once we're done (however short or long that adventure is), they go back to being relaxed and easy-going, so I'd say they have a good off-switch.
Lindsayt- thank you so much for the breed recommendation!
Sangmort- such a detailed response, thank you. Everything you said makes a lot of sense. I'm pretty sure this still wouldn't make the shikoku a good fit for me but I just want to clarify just in case. My dog and future pup do not attend work with me. They are in the trainers room in an xpen and sometimes loose in that room. I wouldn't be expecting my dog to go nose to nose with dogs or playing in a doggie daycare situation. However, while in a crate or on leash he would have to be at close distance to other dogs constantly throughout the day. I'm sure the answer is still no, not a good idea to risk it but just wanted to make sure one last time
Crispy- yes, you helped me a few years back when I was considering the breed! I've since changed jobs. The place I work now is a bit more structured and dogs aren't loose everywhere like they were before. The training room is actually fairly quite but there are other trainers' dogs there so my dog will have to tolerate being in the same room but will likely be in an xpen or crate for much of the day.
The things that @sangmort touched on are issues that are a result of NK sharpness, and honestly even experienced breeders with very even tempered lines will occasionally throw a puppy that is sharper and probably less pliable than you want. I went back to read your introduction to see what drew you to NK. I hope that you don't think that I'm being rude, but if I had to characterize your reasons, it seems like you have liked the ones that you have met and like the idea of them (in the sense that NK have very strong personalities). But based on what you have written it doesn't seem like you are drawn to the traits that I think are inherent to the breeds: the drive, independence, and atavism (not in the formal biological sense).
Most NK do have an off switch but for a lot of them the off switch is flipped when they choose.
[edited for a typo]
There's a trainer in the Seattle area with an adult Kishu who has her dog around other dogs during the day. It might be worth reaching out to her about how she manages her dog during the day and what it's like. I know you weren't interested in the Kishu to start, though.
Re:barrier frustration, my Shikoku is awful with it. My Kishu are bad with it on the leash sometimes if they see something they want to chase (squirrels, cats), but my Shikoku is all the time. We have Aussies that live next door and live to fence fight. My Shikoku thinks they are his mortal enemy, to go along with what @violet_in_seville has said.
In the end, I do think @Calia's suggestion with the Sibe has merit or maybe an Akita from the right parents, as @lindsayt suggested, too.
My kai ken has excellent social skills and was often praised by his dog trainers for how sociable he was. He's been to doggie daycare where he was also praised for his social skills. He does have a weird grudge against unneutered males, but it's not severe. Even with his good social skills, though, I think being around strange dogs for several hours almost every day would be very tiring for him. I've had situations where he seemed to be doing fine with a group of dogs, but then he'd just come up to be with his ears back, tongue out, tail wagging, and I could tell he wanted to leave. He kind of gives me this, "Let's get out of here, OK?" look and then we go. Kai ken seem to be pretty good at checking back with their owners and communicating - as long as you're listening.
That's one individual. Of all the NK, I would say only the kai ken have good dog-dog social skills, but that varies a lot. If that's important to you, definitely talk to the breeder. If it's a deal-breaker, then just steer clear of NK altogether.
I also used to have a shiba who had excellent social skills, but again, there's a lot of variety there, especially now that they are becoming more popular.
- I've had a lot of Shikoku come through here and have only had 2 that can *kinda* coexist with other dogs. Most Shikoku are pretty quarrelsome dogs. There's obviously exceptions to that statement, and for sure Shikoku have "friend" dogs they like, but in general I think they'd really suck in a situation where they'd be expected to constantly mingle with new dogs. As puppies, they might do ok, but that will change as they mature.
- The majority of the Kishu I have met in Japan, Europe, and in the US, and this included the 3 Kishu I own, pretty much suck meeting new dogs. Dog aggression is mo def something prominent in the Kishu breed. Especially the males, they tend to go through a long "I'm a big jerk" phase from 1-3 or 4 years old.
- Kai Ken are typically pretty good with other dogs, however I have for sure owned and seen (and produced) Kai who do not like meeting new dogs. Also, as stated above, Kai bond with their owners, and it's through that bond that they are comfortable in all types of environments. Remove that connection between the owner and the Kai, and they become skittish and uncomfortable in new environments.
- Hokkaido can be pretty rude greeters, but are not what I'd consider quarrelsome or bad with other dogs. But, some can be pretty not ok with meeting strangers. Also, they have a VERY HIGH energy level when compared to the other NK breeds.
I think any of the medium sized NK would enjoy jogging and getting out. I personally feel the medium sized NK are all pretty chill in the house, at least if you raise them to be calm in the house they are. That's kinda part of all the NK breeds - they're supposed to be ready to go out and "hunt" with little extra conditioning, but then be chill and relaxed in the house when it's not hunting season.
Speaking from experience, if you let your NK run around and play a lot in the house, then there's a good chance they'll stay pretty active in the house as they mature. But if you raise them to play outside, and chill out when inside, then I think they mature to be pretty lazy around the house.
"My dog will be constantly exposed to many different environments as I would take him with me everywhere but need for him to settle once we get home."
-- I think ANY breed of dog will need a lot of *really good* socialization early on to be set up for success in many different environments. You'll need to focus on building lots of positive associations with environmental change.
Anyone is welcome to save themselves the distress and learn from my mistakes: I did two hours of Dog Field 7 days a week with my first NK (a Kai mix I got when he was about 5 months old) thinking that would be fantastic for him and a rare tremendous gift that any dog would love but it was SO wrong for him. It was awesome for my lurcher (greyhound mix), however, and she thrived with it and was very comfortable and savvy and based on that, I thought he would too- but dogs are different, and breed heavily influences personality leanings. I never asked either of my true Kai to tolerate the chaos of undirected free group dog activities (parks, playgroups, daycare), and (I feel) that the result is that they trust me to take care of things and know I won't put them in a position where they feel overwhelmed. As Brad said, the Kai are heavily relationship-oriented dogs, even while being independent-minded: the base of everything they do is seated firmly in their confidence that they orbit around a steady, warm sun.
I think I will hold off on a shikoku until I hopefully have the right environment that fits their needs. In the meantime hopefully I can meet a few Kais to see if they're the right fit. Other than the dog reactivity, those that have owned both or have a lot of knowledge of both the shikoku and Kai, what would you say are the main personality differences between the two? If there's another thread on this, maybe someone could just send me the link perhaps?
Thanks again!!!