You know, a side note about the dogs in these videos... This behavior is 100% like a CO (or CC, maybe even any Mastiff/Molosser). I can't count how many times Jen and I have had to deal with this type of avoidance or passive-aggressiveness with one of our guardians. Luytiy was not a fan of the car when we first got him (and he was young), he would behave exactly like the dog in the first vid (pawing your back, avoiding, etc.).
When comparing this Saint Bernard to a CO, they act very similarly, the main difference is, if you applied CM's methods the way they are done in the video above, the CO would eventually become aggressive being forced that much and that would end bad. No matter how "alpha", "calm assertive" or whatever CM is, or how worn-out the dog is from being run around the block (which is a ridiculous amount of effort just to get him up some stairs) he couldn't overpower a dog that size if it became aggressive. That SB is a saint (pun intended) for how he responded to that treatment when compared to a CO (or an Akita, for that matter).
The main difference I see is that in the first video the dog is actually LEARNING. Learning that he is safe, that he can trust the people there, that good things happen in the bath tub. They are actually TRAINING the dog. The second video is simply overpowering the dog. Exhausting him to the point that he can't fight back. The dog is learning that if he doesn't want to do something he will be forced. I have worked with enough abuse cases to say comfortably that the second method with a dog that size runs a high risk of putting the human in the hospital. People will say that positive methods don't work with serious training. They are wrong. I have seen many dog trainers from film sets train very precise movements and very specific commands in high stress environments using nothing more than a clicker and some treats. And most of them would NEVER use force methods or apparatuses like prong or e-collars for two reasons, they are not as effective training tools and often dogs on camera will not be wearing a collar.
The first video they are conditioning to the environment, individual and the head harness. Step by step they are showing him that it is safe to move forward. Every time they dog pulled back they let the leash slack, rather than applying a snare effect which panics most animals.
In the second CM is lucky he has the muscle power to do it and the dog is pretty laid back in temperament. I see problems with taking a dog up such a long flight initially, the fact of his size and weight distribution make the dog unsure how to place his feet. It would be better to go to a park that has steps or use mini steps or even a picnic table with attached benches and start with teaching the dog foot placement. The second issue is once up the stairs the dog from its prospective is in an entirely new environment. A fearful dog may have gone into panic mode and crapped right there. Third, steps going up are scary enough, but going down is really challenging since the depth perception make for uncertainty from that vantage point. Again for a large dog the feet sometimes have a hard time coordinating with such a large body. Broken apart I think they would have had much less difficulty and would not needed CM at all. Seems nuts to force something that can be so simple to achieve in broken apart in baby steps.
Watching that first one reminded me of Oskar learning something new....(esp. since he's puppy clumsy still and has the kind of goofy "huh? what's this?" that the first St. Bernard had). He may not have the "lightbulb" moment of "I got it" all the time, but he's not scared, and he's at least thinking well, I'm getting treats! (And there IS learning in that--learning that he is safe, and the thing that scared him is not going to hurt him). And it was pretty quick, too, and didn't stress the dog unnecessarily.
I think about this all a lot too. Stairs in particular were an issue....I was thinking, this puppy is 30+ pounds; he better learn to go up and down soon, but why would I ever try to force him, when it's actually pretty easy to lure a dog up stairs? Like SnF, I started with easy ones and worked up to harder ones (our outside deck stairs are open, thus scary).
It does make me absolutely crazy that people say positive training doesn't work. It does, and it makes much, much more sense. I loved that the campaign against e-collars said "learning shouldn't hurt." Exactly.
That poor dog in the second video. I just want to cry for him.
Why would you use physical force to teach a dog that stairs are not scary when you could have made it a fun and enjoyable learning experience. When I taught my Shibas how to climb stairs, I turned it into a game with lots and lots of treats and praise. It may have taken a little longer than what CM did, but it helped build their confidence and did not break their psyche.
And I can not believe that the owners would allow him to drag their dog up stairs like that...
So I recently took Raye to a scout hike- the girls met at woman's house (tho she is not the scout leader) to prepare their packs, etc. together. The woman had a 8 week old lab puppy. She instructed all the girls as they arrived oohing and ahhing to not let the puppy mouth/bite them and to smack her under the chin if she did. (so not only is she being uneccesarily and detrimentally forceful on the puppy, she is directing 4 girls to as well! Raye is the 5th girl and refused. The glances she shot me were priceless.) I spoke up with a few alternatives then, but after going home and thinking about it, i returned to pickup my daughter with a Pat Miller article on bite inhibition and a list of three appropriate puppy books. A short discussion ensued, but I got nowhere. Partly because she is the kind of person who hates being told not to do something. But the main focus of her replies was "That's nice but I dont have TIME to train like that, I work a 12 hour shift and we have children coming over here 3 days a week. She needs to end the mouthing NOW." and she backed it up with "My friend (who told her to smack the pup and do alpha rolls with accompanying hard stares if smacking doesnt work) raised rottweilers for 25 years this way and never had a one that bit!" I pushed back that I have been annually to seminars on fear and aggression in dogs, but she was firm. she doesnt really know me, she knows her friend.
I forgot how rampant force training still is in the larger world because I only hang out with compassionate, up to date dog people. Did I mention this woman is a nurse?
That story about the lab puppy makes me sad. I'm so glad you tried, though.
There was a person in a puppy group saying she was going to get a prong collar for her pit pup because it was too stubborn, and needed to be "taught a lesson." Puppy seemed pretty soft to me. The only good thing I can say about it is that after realizing it took less than half an hour for her puppy to learn to sit in front of people for a treat, I hope she was reconsidering. I suggested the book "When Pigs Fly" about training "difficult" dogs, esp. the bully breeds, but she clearly wasn't interested.
That story is annoying, but you must have been such a proud Mama! It's not easy for a young girl to stand up to an adult like Raye did. Tell her I said "You go girl!!!" :-)
I was proud of her. She lost a ton of respect for the other girls and allthe adults who turned a blind eye though. It is quite awful to watch a bunch of girls cooing and teasing and gently patting and casually- without a thought- slapping the mouthing pup. without a thought for themselves...
Truly the lesson there was what to do when you see someone doing something you know is wrong, (nothing/something?) and how to do it (throw a nutty? tear her head off? give her information? leave the event? so many choices...) . My sister said I could have admonished her from the angle that I raise my daughter to not hit puppies, and I dont want her to teach her that, but I didnt think of that because I knew Raye would never ever do that. I was kinda expecting Raye to burst out at her, but she was watching me for an example. I think I did okay. I also think I might finally see who "everybody" (as in 'these dogs arent for everybody') is and maybe it really ISN'T me after all.
It disgusts me that people resist kindness and respect. Its as if they WANT to force the dog, making excuses why they chose force rather than teaching. "i dont have time for nice" WTF? then you dont have "time" or will to care for a dog!
It is an interesting comparison BUT notice the body language on the 2 dogs the one being just stubborn taking the bath he is still happy and is in the right mind set to take training (tail wagging the entire time) the second dog with ceaser is scared not stubborn. Now i personally think that no amount of treat giving would get that dog up the stairs he is just to scared and has the instinct to run away now that is a big obstacle to get over for any trainer. The only reason I'm saying this is when I was in the security business i would take my rotti down the local wharf on security patrol and he would not walk across a cattle grid now I tried all methods, treating throwing his ball over the grid and trying to distract him by playing tug of war over the grid now he would not budge he would not put one paw on the grid. it took me 2 times dragging him over the grid for him to get the confidence to preform the task he ran over the grid in future patrols. While the method looks harsh I really don't think It's doing any long term harm. As for hitting a dog it should NEVER EVER be done that treatment makes me sick and is just asking for aggression latter on down the track.
I am going to have to argue that flooding doesn't do any long term harm. I just had a conversation with a friend of mine who is one of the head behaviorists for the American Humane Association and we were discussing these videos specifically. She was telling me how time and time again she has seen dogs ruined (her word) by flooding (the act of forcing a dog to do something they fear). She explained how the only thing it teaches the dog is that they can't trust you, and she has seen more than a few dogs end up being pushed to the point of no return (I.E. emotional breakdown to the point of needing to be PTS). There is a reason that not a single reputable humane organization endorses his (Millan) methods and most go so far as to campaign against them.
@ramps - I disagree, the dog in the first video is scared NOT stubborn. He is avoiding the bath tub because he is unsure of it and not comfortable with the situation.
What methods would you suggest to get the dog to preform the task of getting up the stairs AFTER positive methods have failed i would like to no so I can improve my knowledge of training under these situations.
Proper consistent use of positive methods with a healthy dose of patience won't fail. The only time they fail is when the human gets impatient. It is why whenever someone is dealing with a dog that has hit a road block in their training I suggest bringing in a behaviorist. Someone who will be able to see the forest for the trees. I have trainers work with my dogs all the time just to help me see where I might be stuck.
I'd also like to point out that there isn't just one single positive training method. If you consistently and properly apply one and it doesn't work, there are an infinite number of variations you can try until you find one that does. Assuming you understand what it is that you are doing when using positive reinforcement training, your imagination is the only limiting factor.
I think Patrice's (StaticNfuzz's) post above does a pretty good job explaining how one could break down the training issues in the second video into small "baby steps". Once those steps are done, its a matter of putting the parts together and properly reinforcing the dog in the environment where the issues is occurring.
Blue is strange about jumping into my car, he can do it, and sometimes he does do it, but sometimes he doesn't. After chatting with our trainer and working with him in some agility, we found that his issues is that he is not comfortable with the placement of his back end - like he doesn't "know" where his back end is in relation to his body/front end. So, we worked with him in activities that helped him learn his footing better. Once we saw improvements there, he was then more comfortable getting into my truck - and with some extra positive reinforcement, along with teaching him to "jump" on "command", he jumps right in the truck now. This is a similar approach to what Patrice suggested above IMHO - you break the problem down in to bits and then work on each bit. This builds the dog's confidence too, which usually helps in most any situation like video 1 and 2.
One thing that I don't get about that CM video (and I have not seen the whole program so maybe the answer is there) is, what on earth is so important about the dog going upstairs that an owner would allow some bully to come into their home and do that to their dog? Am I way offline here? It seems silly to force an animal to do something like that for no reason other than because you want him to. Strange.
"My friend (who told her to smack the pup and do alpha rolls with accompanying hard stares if smacking doesnt work) raised rottweilers for 25 years this way and never had a one that bit!" I pushed back that I have been annually to seminars on fear and aggression in dogs, but she was firm. she doesnt really know me, she knows her friend.
That reminds me of an idea from a book I just picked up from my Father in law. In "Game Dog" by Richard Wolters (Gen, you've probably read this book), Wolters talks about how people have a tendency to believe the first thing they are told on any given subject. After they learn that smacking a puppy is the best way to keep him from biting, the burden of proof is on th eperson who encourages them to try a different method. While I don't agree with what your Girl Scout friend was saying, it certainly is in keeping with Wolters' theory, and quite understandable. In how many ways are all of us basically unwilling to learn a new way of doing anything, simply because what we heard first, and from a seemingly reliable source, was very different? With my first dog, all I ever heard was coming from the negative reinforcement side. So it's how he was raised. Now, as I look back, I think of how much more fun and how much less stressful training would have been and how much more I would like the finished product if I had been more positive. Live and learn I guess. Y'all know I used to be a Cesar defender. I'm not anymore. I don't hate him, but I certainly don't think he has the best approach to training dogs. One thing I do like, however, is his emphasis on exercise. If there's one thing I could do to change the life of every dog in America, it would be to make sure its owner exercised him. You may think he went overboard in the 2nd video, but I find that doing everything is easier with tired pups!
Ok Jessica I'll agree on your point of human patience being a big part in positive methods of training but I did try all of these methods for over 6 months to try and get my rotti over the cattle grid honestly I don't think he could see the grid. I think it looked like a big hole to him and he could not go against his instinct even with detraction methods or treat rewarding or trying to make it a part of play. That is the only time i have EVER used flooding as a training technique but once he was over the grid even though i draged him he was rewarded greatly on the second pass there was only mild resistance then on the third pass it was iff the grid was not there. I do not agree with ceaser's methods at all some of them are just stupid. I like to condition my dogs to except what is being done to them e.g grooming having a bath e.c.t by using the methods like what are used in the first episode that stupid pinch thing he does is just as bad as hitting the dog. I've found a video as well and it is of the correct use of a pinch collar to overcome aggression issues what does every body think of this type of training aid being used.
Maybe I missed something, but where was the training in that video? I looked like the women was walking the dog on a choke collar/head collar, and then man walked the dog and the behavior was different, but I didn't see any actually training.
Furthermore, even though the dog wasn't putting on a display in the second part of the video, it didn't appear comfortable at all. It was in a pure avoidance posture constantly averting it's eyes from the other dog. This is an indicator that whatever training was used on the dog has curbed the big displays, but hasn't helped it to conquer it's fears---it's still afraid of confrontation with the other dog. The arguments made earlier in this thread about the benefits of positive reinforcement training is that you are teaching a dog to become comfortable with things that cause them discomfort, rather than teaching them not to have a significant reaction to them. I think you'd see a marked difference in the posture/behavior of that dog if some simple classical conditioning was used in place of the prong/punishment that seems to have been used.
Wow it didn't take some body long to work that out dlroberts you hit the nail on the head. As you stated the fear is still there which means that the behavioural problem is still there underlying. I agree that with gentle conditioning and socialisation the behaviour could be changed permanently. Ceaser millan's methods and those used by a lot of trainers are out of date and send dog training back 20 years. I admit in the past i have used training aids such as pinch collars but i have made the decision not to use them any more and try the more friendly and humane methods and these methods actually remove the behaviour problem all together.
@ramps: You're not alone. Pretty much everyone on this forum "found religion" at some point (myself included). :-)
Honestly, I don't know a single person who got a dog for the first time and immediately drank the R+ koolaid without a detour through P+ (other than @sangmort, but we all know she's crazy ;-)).
I agree with Jessica on this--why is flooding a good idea? (I've done it before I knew better. Now I'm ashamed that I forced my dog to something it feared. In both cases, the dogs never got over their fear of the thing that triggered it, that I forced them into accepting) And I've got echo Brad here too....what is so important about getting the dog up the stairs that they let this guy bully their dog? That's one that's a particularly close example, because I was getting tired of carrying my big puppy up and down the stairs (but he had to go down stairs for his middle of the night or early morning pee breaks). Granted, I might have been really frustrated (and thus tempted to ignore his fear--though I still wouldn't have done what was going on in that second video) if he was 6 months old and still wouldn't go up the stairs, but I find it hard to believe they really tried positive methods. Oskar would not go up the stairs for food most of the times I tried with him, but I did get him to go up or down one or two, and we tried some other places with less scary stairs. The big thing for him was that his adoptive mom dog, Bel, kept running up the stairs when they were playing and taunting him, an he went up inside after her. Going down took a couple more days. Then a week later, with a combo of me luring and Bel teasing, he managed to go up the outside stairs. The thing is, the whole process took about 3-4 weeks, and I don't know that it would have happened even that quick with just me luring with food....it took what he REALLY wanted, which was to play with another dog (and probably she was an example to him as well).
Sorry this is so long, but it was a big lesson for me too, which I put together from watching those videos. Luring with food would not have gotten him up the stairs so quick--food wasn't a big enough motivator. But playing with a Shiba was, and I'd bet it helped that he saw how easily, and eagerly, she did it, and realized it was something dogs could do.
This gets me thinking about how fearful he still is in the car--perhaps he needs to go for some rides with Bel!
Finally, a question. I have a friend who still uses a pinch collar on her GSD, because he's so big she can't handle him on a walk (she never trained him to walk calmly on a leash, of course). I've been trying to get her over to positive training methods (esp since he is so biddable, and so quick to learn--I play clicker games with him when I visit). she's not against them, at all (she listens to me go on and on) but she feels she can't control him on a walk and until she can, she's going with the pinch collar. How can I get her to make the shift to another method? Esp. since he gets little exercise except these very short walks, so he's pretty excited to go--what can we do to make her feel ok about walking him before he's learned how to walk calmly without a pinch collar? (he's exuberant, large, and is dog reactive while on a leash).
ETA: since there was lots of crossposting as I wrote my "novel" here....just wanted to say, yeah, it's hard sometimes to get where we want to be....for me, even though I'm all about positive training I still catch myself doing some aversive stuff because it's easier, or seems quicker (but often isn't) or whatever....Retraining myself, too, you know? And I'm SO glad I didn't get stuck in the thing Kevin mentions from the book: sticking with what I learned first! Cuz I learned all those aversive training methods (collar pop, be dominant, all that bullshit, all done on my poor GSD who would have been driving cars had I only known about positive training then....so sad, but I did abandon all that after his first couple of years, thankfully)
And re: the third video, looks to me like a lot was edited out. Because the dog doesn't go from totally ignoring the person (in the part) to walking calmly on a loose leash with lots of attention focused on the handler's face (in the second part) just because they went from a head collar to a pinch collar. That's bs. So what, exactly, happened in between that is not on camera? All the training is off camera, apparently.
I just got lucky that I found this forum & some awesome people to guide me, Dave [ & about 3 years of research before puppy#1 showed up!!! LOL ]
But in all seriousness, every time Wraith pulls some crazy ass shit & I start to panic...I think..."WAIT!!! I read about this on NKF...so we do xyz..." & I thank God for this forum every time I look at that monster puppy! Otherwise, I'd seriously be on meds right now. ~
@shibamistress: I'd suggest she continue walking on the prong collar while she begins the positive training. If you teach her how to do it, I bet withing a few days she'll realize she doesn't need the prong collar anymore. If she's still nervous about it, let her put two collars and two leashes on the dog, keeping the prong as a backup. Again, I suspect she'll see such an improvement that she won't feel she needs that crutch anymore. Although, my suspicion is that your biggest hurdle with her is not going to be which collar she uses, but getting her to do the training at all. If she doesn't put the effort into simply taking a walk with her dog, the effort of training it is probably going to be more than she is willing to make. I'd love to be proven wrong though!
Gads....Why the heck they they get a dog (a lab? at that) if they don't have the time since she works 12 hrs in a day? Freaking figures, they expect the kids to raise the damn dog. Give me a break. Nice to teach kids to lash out if something frustrates them. Such a base primate reaction. Go to the zoo and look at both sides of the fence and just observe. You'll see what I mean. Clueless primate reaction is just horrible for other mammalian life that does not interact in the same way.
--As far as the Shepherd, I agree what Dave indicates. Two leashes or collars work well. Keeping the the prong and moving toward using the positive is a valid option. For dog reactive animals there is a lot at play and a lot at stake, so I can see her desire for a safe back up. It can be scary if the dog is explosive and if she has had problems in the past. Those experiences over time only compound the emotional issue for the owner. It is so important to make sure the owner is comfortable, so the dog is comfortable. Unfortunately with the prong or other devise the minute people tense and don't know how to handle themselves they choke the dog. It is similar to a crab reaction, pinch and ask questions later. Some don't know they are even applying pressure at all. Tension goes right down to the leash and the whole dynamic becomes circular in a reactive capacity. As a suggestion if the dog has any canine friends at all, it might be helpful to walk with those people but at a distance. The other thing that is essential, there needs to be some relationship building which involves focus work. If one does not have that foundation down while indoors any outside work will be for not. Threshold work to build tolerance in dogs takes time, a plan and small steps. Without some professional help I am also willing to bet she will not be able to meet her goals.
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About my comment on body and weight distribution. This factor is often overlooked when a dog refuses to do something. You really have to step into their fur and start looking at what the dog might be experiencing and how they are moving. Flooding is trainer centric since it is the fast dirty method when no one gives a crap about patience and perspective. Again this just seems idiotic particularly with something so simple as stairs. I think it is also valid to ask "why" the dog needs to go ups such a flight to the bedrooms above. I mean pick your battles. If I were CM of course I would take the case. On a scale of 1-10 the problems is like 0 or -1 .... I guess they will be calling him back to solve some other issues next, such as resource guarding the bed when they try to get him to move off as the blood supply leaves their legs as they roll over. Never mind....I guess the blood supply as already left their brains already (LOL)
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About body and movement: I was recently at an agility function and there was a setter there. If you know how setters are built, some are rail thin and therefore appear to stand up like a piece of paper. Anyway, the dog had a horrible hind end and the owner was insisting the dog walk across the dog walk. Each time it did it had trouble managing its footing and as the boards flexed the dog would fall. No one, not the instructor nor the owner would consider the structure and repeatedly push the dog forward regardless of safety. Apparently they have been working at this for weeks and falls continue. Can we say brick wall.
So I am back to the mantra, look at the dog and step back to check things out. What you think may be the issue is often not the case at all, listen to the dog....there is a reason. As strange as it sounds "be one with the dog". : )
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As far a foot placement and grids. That should be started early. It can taught at any age but the earlier it gets worked on the less problems one will have overall. Flooding should not be needed, nor dragging across plates, grills or screens. Flooding works as you can see but the results will not necessarily lead to behavior consistent in every environment. Why, because the dog often become shell shocked to perform the behavior for that object in that environment, but has not come to terms with dealing with it as part of thinking for itself in another. Thinking for itself often it scary for some dogs. It's amazing how different they all are. Each plan has to have some flex to allow building of that individual autonomy.
Ok back to more research...enjoy your long weekend with your pups. Snf
Thanks for the thoughts on my friend's GSD....I think it is about fear--her fear--as he pulled her once and she fell and was hurt. I do think he would be easy to train without it--he's so cautious now he just walks along, watching her, unable to believe his luck at being outside, so it should be easy to get him to focus. He's good enough with other dogs offleash (just big and a bit rude, but he plays fine with my akita pup, and my girl Shiba). I'll have to work on this with her--I have been telling her maybe she could get him into a positive training class for reactive dogs. I am encouraged that at least she is trying to take walks with him now--she goes out at night when she doesn't expect to run into other dogs...
I really was interested in Snf's thoughts on where the dog's body is. Makes SO much sense! Over on the Shiba side, someone was saying that the Shiba pup wasn't going downstairs because it was simply "playing" it's people and that if they carried the pup, they'd be "giving in." (I believe this was after your post in that thread btw). Why don't we want to think about how it must be for the dog, esp. a little Shiba? Climbing up, their head is close to the ground, but think how big a full set of stairs must look to a Shiba puppy! And though my Akita is much clumsier than my Shibas were, when I watched him finally brave going down the stairs, I went along and got in front of him in case he fell, because he was having a hard time, and momentum started building up, and I saw he could easily start tumbling down (he didn't, luckily).
I've been kind of lax on some of my socialization with Oskar, I just realized. Oh, he's met lots of people and loves them all, and is polite with all the other dogs we've met (and then plays). But I'd forgotten this is also about new THINGS.,, Took him on a walk to the mail boxes, and he got panicky when the third car went by. We don't live on a busy street, obviously, so somehow it just didn't occur to me how scary these big things racing by might be. That's another example of simply not thinking about it from the dog's perspective!
@hondru - Well, that's not totally correct, you're missing a key part to CM's methods - first he RUNS the 11 month-old GIANT BREED PUPPY around the block and THEN he chokes him and drags him up the stairs. See, the running him around the block gets him "in the zone"* to be choked and dragged up the stairs. lol
*Or, in other words, he had to run the dog around to tire him out so he could drag him up the stairs.
Theres no training there. the woman isnt even attempting to be With the dog. She's exposing and watching the dog freak. She is not providing information, or guidance. Thehead halter isnt appropriate for that dog- he finds it too aversive from the get go. The second handler has a more directive carriage: we are going to walk this way and do this, he provides some communication to the dog. The woman hung the dog out to dry. This is not a comparison of tools only.
Any training gear must be accompanied by training, and you must be actively PRESENT with your dog. If you want the dog to pay attention to you, you have to hold up your end of the 'conversation' and be checked in.
Comments
When comparing this Saint Bernard to a CO, they act very similarly, the main difference is, if you applied CM's methods the way they are done in the video above, the CO would eventually become aggressive being forced that much and that would end bad. No matter how "alpha", "calm assertive" or whatever CM is, or how worn-out the dog is from being run around the block (which is a ridiculous amount of effort just to get him up some stairs) he couldn't overpower a dog that size if it became aggressive. That SB is a saint (pun intended) for how he responded to that treatment when compared to a CO (or an Akita, for that matter).
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People will say that positive methods don't work with serious training. They are wrong. I have seen many dog trainers from film sets train very precise movements and very specific commands in high stress environments using nothing more than a clicker and some treats. And most of them would NEVER use force methods or apparatuses like prong or e-collars for two reasons, they are not as effective training tools and often dogs on camera will not be wearing a collar.
In the second CM is lucky he has the muscle power to do it and the dog is pretty laid back in temperament. I see problems with taking a dog up such a long flight initially, the fact of his size and weight distribution make the dog unsure how to place his feet. It would be better to go to a park that has steps or use mini steps or even a picnic table with attached benches and start with teaching the dog foot placement. The second issue is once up the stairs the dog from its prospective is in an entirely new environment. A fearful dog may have gone into panic mode and crapped right there. Third, steps going up are scary enough, but going down is really challenging since the depth perception make for uncertainty from that vantage point. Again for a large dog the feet sometimes have a hard time coordinating with such a large body. Broken apart I think they would have had much less difficulty and would not needed CM at all. Seems nuts to force something that can be so simple to achieve in broken apart in baby steps.
Snf
I think about this all a lot too. Stairs in particular were an issue....I was thinking, this puppy is 30+ pounds; he better learn to go up and down soon, but why would I ever try to force him, when it's actually pretty easy to lure a dog up stairs? Like SnF, I started with easy ones and worked up to harder ones (our outside deck stairs are open, thus scary).
It does make me absolutely crazy that people say positive training doesn't work. It does, and it makes much, much more sense. I loved that the campaign against e-collars said "learning shouldn't hurt." Exactly.
Why would you use physical force to teach a dog that stairs are not scary when you could have made it a fun and enjoyable learning experience. When I taught my Shibas how to climb stairs, I turned it into a game with lots and lots of treats and praise. It may have taken a little longer than what CM did, but it helped build their confidence and did not break their psyche.
And I can not believe that the owners would allow him to drag their dog up stairs like that...
I forgot how rampant force training still is in the larger world because I only hang out with compassionate, up to date dog people. Did I mention this woman is a nurse?
good gravy...
There was a person in a puppy group saying she was going to get a prong collar for her pit pup because it was too stubborn, and needed to be "taught a lesson." Puppy seemed pretty soft to me. The only good thing I can say about it is that after realizing it took less than half an hour for her puppy to learn to sit in front of people for a treat, I hope she was reconsidering. I suggested the book "When Pigs Fly" about training "difficult" dogs, esp. the bully breeds, but she clearly wasn't interested.
Truly the lesson there was what to do when you see someone doing something you know is wrong, (nothing/something?) and how to do it (throw a nutty? tear her head off? give her information? leave the event? so many choices...) . My sister said I could have admonished her from the angle that I raise my daughter to not hit puppies, and I dont want her to teach her that, but I didnt think of that because I knew Raye would never ever do that. I was kinda expecting Raye to burst out at her, but she was watching me for an example. I think I did okay. I also think I might finally see who "everybody" (as in 'these dogs arent for everybody') is and maybe it really ISN'T me after all.
It disgusts me that people resist kindness and respect. Its as if they WANT to force the dog, making excuses why they chose force rather than teaching. "i dont have time for nice" WTF? then you dont have "time" or will to care for a dog!
The only reason I'm saying this is when I was in the security business i would take my rotti down the local wharf on security patrol and he would not walk across a cattle grid now I tried all methods, treating throwing his ball over the grid and trying to distract him by playing tug of war over the grid now he would not budge he would not put one paw on the grid. it took me 2 times dragging him over the grid for him to get the confidence to preform the task he ran over the grid in future patrols.
While the method looks harsh I really don't think It's doing any long term harm.
As for hitting a dog it should NEVER EVER be done that treatment makes me sick and is just asking for aggression latter on down the track.
What methods would you suggest to get the dog to preform the task of getting up the stairs AFTER positive methods have failed i would like to no so I can improve my knowledge of training under these situations.
Blue is strange about jumping into my car, he can do it, and sometimes he does do it, but sometimes he doesn't. After chatting with our trainer and working with him in some agility, we found that his issues is that he is not comfortable with the placement of his back end - like he doesn't "know" where his back end is in relation to his body/front end. So, we worked with him in activities that helped him learn his footing better. Once we saw improvements there, he was then more comfortable getting into my truck - and with some extra positive reinforcement, along with teaching him to "jump" on "command", he jumps right in the truck now. This is a similar approach to what Patrice suggested above IMHO - you break the problem down in to bits and then work on each bit. This builds the dog's confidence too, which usually helps in most any situation like video 1 and 2.
One thing that I don't get about that CM video (and I have not seen the whole program so maybe the answer is there) is, what on earth is so important about the dog going upstairs that an owner would allow some bully to come into their home and do that to their dog? Am I way offline here? It seems silly to force an animal to do something like that for no reason other than because you want him to. Strange.
That reminds me of an idea from a book I just picked up from my Father in law. In "Game Dog" by Richard Wolters (Gen, you've probably read this book), Wolters talks about how people have a tendency to believe the first thing they are told on any given subject. After they learn that smacking a puppy is the best way to keep him from biting, the burden of proof is on th eperson who encourages them to try a different method.
While I don't agree with what your Girl Scout friend was saying, it certainly is in keeping with Wolters' theory, and quite understandable. In how many ways are all of us basically unwilling to learn a new way of doing anything, simply because what we heard first, and from a seemingly reliable source, was very different?
With my first dog, all I ever heard was coming from the negative reinforcement side. So it's how he was raised. Now, as I look back, I think of how much more fun and how much less stressful training would have been and how much more I would like the finished product if I had been more positive. Live and learn I guess.
Y'all know I used to be a Cesar defender. I'm not anymore. I don't hate him, but I certainly don't think he has the best approach to training dogs. One thing I do like, however, is his emphasis on exercise. If there's one thing I could do to change the life of every dog in America, it would be to make sure its owner exercised him. You may think he went overboard in the 2nd video, but I find that doing everything is easier with tired pups!
I do not agree with ceaser's methods at all some of them are just stupid.
I like to condition my dogs to except what is being done to them e.g grooming having a bath e.c.t by using the methods like what are used in the first episode that stupid pinch thing he does is just as bad as hitting the dog.
I've found a video as well and it is of the correct use of a pinch collar to overcome aggression issues what does every body think of this type of training aid being used.
check it out.
Furthermore, even though the dog wasn't putting on a display in the second part of the video, it didn't appear comfortable at all. It was in a pure avoidance posture constantly averting it's eyes from the other dog. This is an indicator that whatever training was used on the dog has curbed the big displays, but hasn't helped it to conquer it's fears---it's still afraid of confrontation with the other dog. The arguments made earlier in this thread about the benefits of positive reinforcement training is that you are teaching a dog to become comfortable with things that cause them discomfort, rather than teaching them not to have a significant reaction to them. I think you'd see a marked difference in the posture/behavior of that dog if some simple classical conditioning was used in place of the prong/punishment that seems to have been used.
As you stated the fear is still there which means that the behavioural problem is still there underlying.
I agree that with gentle conditioning and socialisation the behaviour could be changed permanently.
Ceaser millan's methods and those used by a lot of trainers are out of date and send dog training back 20 years.
I admit in the past i have used training aids such as pinch collars but i have made the decision not to use them any more and try the more friendly and humane methods and these methods actually remove the behaviour problem all together.
Honestly, I don't know a single person who got a dog for the first time and immediately drank the R+ koolaid without a detour through P+ (other than @sangmort, but we all know she's crazy ;-)).
Sorry this is so long, but it was a big lesson for me too, which I put together from watching those videos. Luring with food would not have gotten him up the stairs so quick--food wasn't a big enough motivator. But playing with a Shiba was, and I'd bet it helped that he saw how easily, and eagerly, she did it, and realized it was something dogs could do.
This gets me thinking about how fearful he still is in the car--perhaps he needs to go for some rides with Bel!
Finally, a question. I have a friend who still uses a pinch collar on her GSD, because he's so big she can't handle him on a walk (she never trained him to walk calmly on a leash, of course). I've been trying to get her over to positive training methods (esp since he is so biddable, and so quick to learn--I play clicker games with him when I visit). she's not against them, at all (she listens to me go on and on) but she feels she can't control him on a walk and until she can, she's going with the pinch collar. How can I get her to make the shift to another method? Esp. since he gets little exercise except these very short walks, so he's pretty excited to go--what can we do to make her feel ok about walking him before he's learned how to walk calmly without a pinch collar? (he's exuberant, large, and is dog reactive while on a leash).
ETA: since there was lots of crossposting as I wrote my "novel" here....just wanted to say, yeah, it's hard sometimes to get where we want to be....for me, even though I'm all about positive training I still catch myself doing some aversive stuff because it's easier, or seems quicker (but often isn't) or whatever....Retraining myself, too, you know? And I'm SO glad I didn't get stuck in the thing Kevin mentions from the book: sticking with what I learned first! Cuz I learned all those aversive training methods (collar pop, be dominant, all that bullshit, all done on my poor GSD who would have been driving cars had I only known about positive training then....so sad, but I did abandon all that after his first couple of years, thankfully)
And re: the third video, looks to me like a lot was edited out. Because the dog doesn't go from totally ignoring the person (in the part) to walking calmly on a loose leash with lots of attention focused on the handler's face (in the second part) just because they went from a head collar to a pinch collar. That's bs. So what, exactly, happened in between that is not on camera? All the training is off camera, apparently.
I just got lucky that I found this forum & some awesome people to guide me, Dave
But in all seriousness, every time Wraith pulls some crazy ass shit & I start to panic...I think..."WAIT!!! I read about this on NKF...so we do xyz..." & I thank God for this forum every time I look at that monster puppy! Otherwise, I'd seriously be on meds right now. ~
--As far as the Shepherd, I agree what Dave indicates. Two leashes or collars work well. Keeping the the prong and moving toward using the positive is a valid option. For dog reactive animals there is a lot at play and a lot at stake, so I can see her desire for a safe back up. It can be scary if the dog is explosive and if she has had problems in the past. Those experiences over time only compound the emotional issue for the owner. It is so important to make sure the owner is comfortable, so the dog is comfortable. Unfortunately with the prong or other devise the minute people tense and don't know how to handle themselves they choke the dog. It is similar to a crab reaction, pinch and ask questions later. Some don't know they are even applying pressure at all. Tension goes right down to the leash and the whole dynamic becomes circular in a reactive capacity. As a suggestion if the dog has any canine friends at all, it might be helpful to walk with those people but at a distance. The other thing that is essential, there needs to be some relationship building which involves focus work. If one does not have that foundation down while indoors any outside work will be for not. Threshold work to build tolerance in dogs takes time, a plan and small steps. Without some professional help I am also willing to bet she will not be able to meet her goals.
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About my comment on body and weight distribution. This factor is often overlooked when a dog refuses to do something. You really have to step into their fur and start looking at what the dog might be experiencing and how they are moving. Flooding is trainer centric since it is the fast dirty method when no one gives a crap about patience and perspective. Again this just seems idiotic particularly with something so simple as stairs. I think it is also valid to ask "why" the dog needs to go ups such a flight to the bedrooms above. I mean pick your battles. If I were CM of course I would take the case. On a scale of 1-10 the problems is like 0 or -1 .... I guess they will be calling him back to solve some other issues next, such as resource guarding the bed when they try to get him to move off as the blood supply leaves their legs as they roll over. Never mind....I guess the blood supply as already left their brains already (LOL)
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About body and movement: I was recently at an agility function and there was a setter there. If you know how setters are built, some are rail thin and therefore appear to stand up like a piece of paper. Anyway, the dog had a horrible hind end and the owner was insisting the dog walk across the dog walk. Each time it did it had trouble managing its footing and as the boards flexed the dog would fall. No one, not the instructor nor the owner would consider the structure and repeatedly push the dog forward regardless of safety. Apparently they have been working at this for weeks and falls continue. Can we say brick wall.
So I am back to the mantra, look at the dog and step back to check things out. What you think may be the issue is often not the case at all, listen to the dog....there is a reason. As strange as it sounds "be one with the dog". : )
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As far a foot placement and grids. That should be started early. It can taught at any age but the earlier it gets worked on the less problems one will have overall. Flooding should not be needed, nor dragging across plates, grills or screens. Flooding works as you can see but the results will not necessarily lead to behavior consistent in every environment. Why, because the dog often become shell shocked to perform the behavior for that object in that environment, but has not come to terms with dealing with it as part of thinking for itself in another. Thinking for itself often it scary for some dogs. It's amazing how different they all are. Each plan has to have some flex to allow building of that individual autonomy.
Ok back to more research...enjoy your long weekend with your pups.
Snf
I really was interested in Snf's thoughts on where the dog's body is. Makes SO much sense! Over on the Shiba side, someone was saying that the Shiba pup wasn't going downstairs because it was simply "playing" it's people and that if they carried the pup, they'd be "giving in." (I believe this was after your post in that thread btw). Why don't we want to think about how it must be for the dog, esp. a little Shiba? Climbing up, their head is close to the ground, but think how big a full set of stairs must look to a Shiba puppy! And though my Akita is much clumsier than my Shibas were, when I watched him finally brave going down the stairs, I went along and got in front of him in case he fell, because he was having a hard time, and momentum started building up, and I saw he could easily start tumbling down (he didn't, luckily).
I've been kind of lax on some of my socialization with Oskar, I just realized. Oh, he's met lots of people and loves them all, and is polite with all the other dogs we've met (and then plays). But I'd forgotten this is also about new THINGS.,, Took him on a walk to the mail boxes, and he got panicky when the third car went by. We don't live on a busy street, obviously, so somehow it just didn't occur to me how scary these big things racing by might be. That's another example of simply not thinking about it from the dog's perspective!
*Or, in other words, he had to run the dog around to tire him out so he could drag him up the stairs.
Any training gear must be accompanied by training, and you must be actively PRESENT with your dog. If you want the dog to pay attention to you, you have to hold up your end of the 'conversation' and be checked in.