Our Kai Ken from Sai No Kuni Inoue Sou (Kennel)
Took some pics of our Kai Ken from Sai No Kuni Inoue Sou. Inoue-san (owner of the kennel) requested some updated pics, so we took Ayu, Haru, and Ritsu to Santa Fe with us yesterday and got some nice pics...
Ritsu...
Ayu...
Haru...
And here is one of Jen with the pups...
And me with the pups...
I'm very very pleased with our pups from Inoue-san, they have great temperaments, lots of usable drive, and are gorgeous examples of the breed. We couldn't be happier. And you couldn't pick a nicer family to import pups from, the Inoue family was a real treat to meet and spend time with when I was there (Japan) visiting with Shigeru.
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Ritsu...
Ayu...
Haru...
And here is one of Jen with the pups...
And me with the pups...
I'm very very pleased with our pups from Inoue-san, they have great temperaments, lots of usable drive, and are gorgeous examples of the breed. We couldn't be happier. And you couldn't pick a nicer family to import pups from, the Inoue family was a real treat to meet and spend time with when I was there (Japan) visiting with Shigeru.
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Comments
Ayu really takes after her mother more than Haru.
Haru looks like she still remembers how to stack KKA style. :-)
I love Ritsu and Ayu.
It's really hard to get pictures that show the Kai's true color. Ayu always ends up looking less red, Haru looks washed out, and Ritsu looks almost all black. The NM sun is just really intense, especially at our elevation. I guess you all will just have to come an meet them in person.
I really like Haru's chest in her second pic, she look tough. lol
You guys have no idea how many shots it took to get that one with Jen, Ayu was bouncing all over the place. She was loving the rocks. lol
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Ritsu has Eishin and Riki (Haru's dad) in him, and I think you can kinda see a little of both of them coming through.
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Great pics! I always enjoy seeing pics of your Kai! :]
Ayu looks so tall! Are the photos deceiving, or is she a tall girl?
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Interesting bits about Ritsu..
- He shares a sire with Ayu & Tora (Haruna No Eishin)
- His great-grandfather on his mother's and grandmother's side is Tyson's sire (Tone No Isshin).
- His grandfather on his mother's side is Haru's father (Nanyou No Rikiou)
So Ritsu kinda acts like an anchor in our program for Ayu, Tora, Haru, Taka, and Tyson.
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In your breeding program, what is the goal COI?
Is there a benefit to line breeding since the breed is so rare?
Keep in mind the Kai Ken, being a rare breed, has a small closed gene pool (in NA and Japan). For Jen and I and our efforts with the Kai Ken we have one primary goal and one secondary goal.
Our primary goal is preserving the Kai Ken breed in North America. Increased diversity is most certainly one part (the most important part) of that preservation effort. Strictly speaking, importing related dogs is not optimal for diversification. Obviously if each of our imports were out-crossed from each other (and from the NA population) we would have greater diversity to inject into the current North American Kai Ken population. We fully admit and understand that, but we have to work within the limitations of our resources and, as I'll discuss later, importing from a known semi-related population allows for better odds (and therefore an increase in quality).
However, having written that, one should keep in mind that while some of our imports might be closely related they are still less-closely related to the current North American population. For example, while Ayu and Ritsu might share a rather close ancestry (within 2 to 3 generations of their pedigree), from our research they are at least 6+ generations removed from the current North American population (4+ generation on their side and 2+ generation on the NA population's side) with some of the ancestry being much less related than that (I'd love to say not related at all, but that's just not really possible in such a rare dog breed like the Kai Ken - or across the NK as a group).
From our experience with importing different dog breeds (for breeding) from different areas we have come to believe that one has about a 1 in 5 success rate. Meaning 1 in 5 imports will be "breeding quality" (no major health concerns, good temperament, and structurally acceptable). That margin of error can be reduced by importing from known bloodlines (kennels), which is what we have done with our initial preservation effort. Having some related dogs, who are related via proven healthy relatives, decreases the risk of importing a Kai Ken that doesn't fit our preservation standards (and therefore is not useable). So, the closeness of the initial preservation stock has allowed us to have more success (like 1 in 3) and bring in better quality Kai Ken.
Moving forward we are working to import even further removed less-related Kai Ken than we already have in Kumi, Nio, Akashi, and Chibi (who are our "out-crosses"). Our future importing efforts will focus more on less-related more obscure Kai Ken. Expect it to happen less frequently and with smaller numbers but with significantly more effort. This has been our plan from the start.
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Our secondary goal is to be a respected (in Japan and in NA) KKA-registered kennel located in North America with a successful breeding program that produces healthy and temperamentally-sound Kai Ken that fit within the KKA standard and meets or exceeds our expectations of the breed. Our interpretation of the breed and the KKA standard is pulled from our growing knowledge which comprises what we have learned (and continue to learn) from our KKA contacts in Japan and our hands-on ownership and mating of our imports.
We have no aspirations to show our Kai Ken, tho we would love to place some of our puppies in homes who want to show. Our disinterest in showing our Kai Ken has little to do with our personal opinion of dog shows (we do feel that showing dogs adds value to a breed), instead it is due to the restraints the show competition places on a breeding program. Those restraints are counter productive to our primary goal (see above) - it promotes an ever shrinking gene pool in a small closed population like the Kai Ken. By not partaking in dog shows and competing for titles we escape the need to use champion studs in our program (which is the main thing that shrinks diversity in a dog breed). Also, by not having champions we can have a less-biased preservation catalog, so kennels looking to use our preservation stock to diversify their program will not be pushed to use (our) studs with fancy titles in their name.
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So, to answer your questions (finally)...
In your breeding program, what is the goal COI?
>> Our goal for COI would be "as low as possible". If I'm forced to give a number I'd say under 6%, but I'm honestly not sure that's possible right now. We are currently looking at our prospective matings and calculating COIs to see where we stand.
Is there a benefit to line breeding since the breed is so rare?
>> I don't think the rareness of the breed plays any role in the "benefits" associated with line-breeding. Typically line breeding is used to maintain (and produce consistently) "type" in a breeding program. That same concept applies to rare breeds and less-rare breeds. Personally, I would prefer to line-breed less at the risk of producing inconsistent "type" than to line-breed more at the risk of inbreeding depression.
Having written that, since we are dealing with imports, it is nice to have some consistency in "type" initially (among our foundation) as that helps to lower the risk of introducing health or temperament issues to the NA gene pool.
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As you can see, what we are attempting to accomplish here is a lot and is very complex. There are other elements that make it even more complex but I think I've probably bored you guys enough with the details.
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See - and this is why I ask - there is so much that I don't understand about truly responsible breeding... there are no black and whites. Even though I have been 'in dogs' all my life, I still don't know what I don' t know. I bet people can think that they can just import two rare breeds and hope to breed them without really considering the rate of success and how to cope with the chances of not being successful despite the investment.
Props on the commitment to these dogs, I guess that was something I didn't really appreciate before on my first round on these forums.
We don't really see behind the scenes - all the planning and work and partnerships and hardships and success and disappointment.
I can't even fathom how much money is spent to produce even one litter - let alone establish a program.
I don't really have a mental grasp on COIs - the biological side is scary to me in that inbreeding is just never a good outcome, be it immediately or a few generations later. And forget the mathematical side (calling dr. dave!) that will never translate in my head.
Like you said, in some common breeds like border collies and labs there are freakishly high COIs to keep types consistent, I guess I assumed rare breeds would be similar because of closed gene pool. But 6% while higher than 0% is significantly less than some dogs I've read about (popular sire effect!).
Anyway, I don't want to take away from this thread but while admiring these dogs you worked so hard for and that Sai no Kuni Inoue Sou should be proud of - I wanted to understand their purpose and pedigree and how it translates to preservation. Thanks for educating us
They are gorgeous!