Kai Ken Have Thick Skin? (literally)

edited September 2011 in Kai Ken (甲斐犬)
Dr. Dave ( @dlroberts ) and I were chatting the other day about Tyson. He mentioned how thick Tyson's skin is and how he was worried it might be an issue with his new pup - he felt it might hinder his pup's ability to learn bite inhibition.

Then, I mentioned he might be onto something there, as I had noticed when our Kai have a conflict with one of the other breeds it's VERY rarely the Kai walks away with a puncture wound or anything like that. But, it's been a few times that the other dog (breed) has suffered some type of puncture or cut...

For example, we had a brawl here between Nio, Ritsu, and Kaiju a few weeks ago - it was a melee - all three were going after one another. Even tho Kaiju started it, when I got there I had to pull Ritsu and Nio off each other. After the conflict Ritsu and Nio were fine, but Kiju had a large gash on his neck. I was surprised Kaiju ended up with the cut as Ritsu and Kaiju really gave it to Nio (pretty mean), but Nio suffered no injuries at all.

So, this makes me wonder, is this because the Kai Ken has surprisingly thick skin? Also, I wonder if their thick skin hinders their ability to learn bite inhibition from each other?

It's rare we have conflict between our Kai Ken, in my experience they aren't quarrelsome like some other breeds, but when they do have a real fight they go all-in and it can be nasty (reminds me of the CO temperament). They tend to do very little damage to each other (Kai-Kai) tho, but they have done damage to the other breeds (Kai-Shikoku/Shiba/Akita). Is it that the other breeds' skin is thinner, or that the Kai's thick skin handicaps their ability to learn bite inhibition (and so they bite harder during conflict)?

Shigeru mentioned to me once that Momo and Haru had a few conflicts too, and it was always Momo who walked away with injuries. So, that kinda fits with this thought process too.

Thoughts?

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Comments

  • Hmm, well, I don't have a Kai so I can't really say much on that part.
    But out of the numerous times Conker has fought with the Girls, only once has one of the Girls been the one to bleed. Conker's gotten several punctures and small cuts and Juneau only had her ear torn once. Sasha has never had a wound caused by Conker and when he goes after them he doesn't hold back. So I guess their skin is thicker than his, but they are Border Collie/Labrador Retriever mixes, not Kai.

    This is interesting, and I hope more Kai owners post their opinion!
  • I think that's an interesting theory. That bit about Haru and Momo is definitely true, Momo always came out bleeding, and no matter how hard they went at it, Haru never seemed to get cut.
  • I'd imagine that skin helps when dealing with boar, reducing the risk of a serious gash should one make contact. I'm not sure how it would affect bite inhibition, though it could do something. Not quite the same thing, but Tikaani has allowed Miyu to really get rough with him, even to the extent where he'll just be standing there as she pulls at his neck skin like she's trying to take it off him. Even with this kind of play, she has managed to maintain good bite inhibition with us and with Tetsu. Even when she got into a pretty bad scuffle with Tetsu over food (handler error), she had clasped on his neck and a few other areas causing him to scream for a good 20 minutes. Checking Tetsu over, there wasn't a single mark on him, just some spit.

    I think in the long run, a dog can still learn decent bite inhibition (especially with a breed that is made to have a soft mouth like the labs) due to the fact that they aren't practicing it only with another dog. They'll learn also from the people and other animals, around them as well.
  • Yeah, I can feel the difference in skin thickness when I feel Mika and Kyuubi. He did break skin on Mika once as a puppy and made her bleed, but it was around the ears. I didn't notice until a day after when it was dried up already. However, they weren't in a fight or anything, was just regular play.

    Although they have thicker skin, or so it feels like it, Kyuubi was really hurt when Kotomi beat him up or at least afraid of her, and same thing when he sees the Wrinkles, the shar pei puppy. I haven't had to break up a fight between my two yet, so I can't really compare their bite inhibition, especially since it the incident when Kyuubi broke Mika's skin was when we only had him for about a month.

    The only potential dog I can see Kyuubi getting into a fight with in the future is Wrinkles, since well Wrinkles seems to want to start a fight with every dog he sees, even at 15 weeks old. With Wrinkles being a shar pei I'm not sure if Kyuubi would do much damage to him. I did have a close incident a few days ago with my two and Wrinkles though, it could have been a lot worst, but was able to stop it all before it escalated.

    Both Mika and Kyuubi had their bullysticks minding their own business in my office when my BIL came back from lunch and had what I ordered to-go. He knocked on my office door and I told him to come in since the pups were busy with their bullysticks. After he dropped off the food on my desk and went to leave my office Wrinkles snuck by him. It was less than a second from when I heard him say "hey!" to Wrinkles to hearing dogs snarling and then seeing Wrinkles on top of Mika. I saw her trying to kick him off and snarling at him telling him he was totally pushing the limits of the boundaries. I've never seen her re-act this way before. I was able to go over there and separate the two. My BIL then grabbed Wrinkles and put him outside my office, I was holding Mika back because she really wanted to go after him, then suddenly to my right I see Kyuubi rushing towards the door trying to lunge at Wrinkles and barking. I had to grab him and hold back both pups who are now barking and growling at Wrinkles. When my BIL finally was able to shut my office door I let go of the pups and Kyuubi redirected himself onto Mika lunging on top of her. He was just so overly stimulated by what happened I don't think he realized he was then on top of Mika. Once I pulled him off he realized what he was doing and knocked out of it.
  • sorry about Mika, Kyuubi and Wrinkles must been scary. =\

    Yeah when the dogs get riled up over that I never let them together till they're calmed down some.

    Junior our last dog a boxer/pit mix would get into it with Pearly and Dink over resource sadly we didn't know much on training. =\

    We had to keep Junior separated for awhile because even after separating him from the girls if we let him go he'd run right for them.

    Dink our catahoula mix she'd get beat up on by Junior a lot thank god she is tough must got it from her catahoula side..

    She never got a bite or blood except for a scrape on her nose, but thankfully they are fine.

    I'm so glad Saya and Bella get along fine they've had a few small arguements over new toys, but it was never horrible and they came right to me when I told them to come for a treat..

    Interesting observation on the kai ken would be helpful when hunting..

    I don't think it'd hurt with bite inhibition Bella my parent's boxer allowed Saya to bite her on the lips, legs and so on and she didn't correct Saya as a puppy. Saya is pretty good about not biting me hard and she never bitten anyone..
  • Koda got bit by an anatolean of all dogs and came out without a scratch. I thought forsure we were going to have to go to the vet. But when the fight finished he was fine.

    As far as thick skin I can ask his surgeon next time we see him. :-p
  • I would not be very surprised if Kaï's skin was more thick... I think, Kaï's breed is strong, muscular and many Kaï used in Japan to boost the breed were savages, isnt'it?

    Their resistance must have been... developped.

    So... in that case... it would be logical that the biting inhibition is different...

    I'm very interested by that. I look forward your experiences and the development of this talk !
  • I have thought the same! When Nuuk and Ife are playing, Nuuk bites Ife really hard but never I have found any puncture wounds on her. I have noticed that Kais have also very high pain barrier. Twice I have heard Ife whine when Nuuk bites too hard.
  • edited September 2011
    When Kohji got into that big, nasty fight with News the Dutch Shepherd I had, he came out of it with no punctures or open wounds. I'm sure he was bruised but I couldn't see it with all of his hair. He was bitten on the back and side of the neck, and News held him like he would a tug toy :(
    Kohji also killed a groundhog a few weeks ago and didn't have any scrapes or bites on him at all. That groundhog fought him like it was goin outta style too..
    I believe they do have pretty thick skin, it makes sense to me from what I've seen. It's a really good trait to have in my opinion.
  • From giving sub-q injections to Lucy and once to Tyson, I know for sure that Tyson has really thick skin. When Tyson had his last vaccines the vet had to stick him twice because she didn't get through the skin on the first try. She remarked how thick his skin is.

    I've also seen this play out in another interesting way. Joey and Tyson play a lot, and Joey can get pretty nasty with Tyson. To the point that Tyson almost always has some scabs on his face or neck. Because Tyson is so tolerant, Joey has learned he can be pretty harsh wit his mouth during play or corrections. But, when Joey has corrected my thin-skinned lab puppy it results in deep gashes and puncture wounds. :-/
  • @kwyld - I agree, it's a good trait for the breed to have. I commented to Jen that I'd like to try and be sure to keep that trait in the pups we produce. I like a rugged dog.

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  • Tho Sage is a kai mix, I have always found him to be thickskinned (physically, if not emotionally) In the old days when he was at The Field and was pinned by dogs, only once did he have a small puncture on his neck. (embarrassingly it was a springer spaniel that did that) It was far more damaging to his inner self. He also has a very thick mane of fur.

    I find my Kai, Juno, to be a very tough dog- for all her petite-ness (petititude?) and elegance- she is indomitable playing rough with my big dogs, who are 3x her size. each! Though they never get angry with her or try to really bite her meaningfully, and their bite inhibition is good in play. She also fears no thorns when we hike through the field of raspberries- some of which are old and pretty gnarly with monster thorns. Mud, water, rocks, brush- she never shies: she may look like a princess, and be all kissy and sweet and adorable, but where the rubber meets the road her body and confidence are both super rugged!
  • I would agree that the thick skin (and thick coat, certainly, from my frame of reference) is a good trait. Mischief (jungle dog, thai ridgeback) acts like she's got thick skin, but it all shows up on her; you can see every mark, for a long time. I've reason to believe she's even susceptible to poison ivy. Not many dogs have to worry about that. However she acts like she's got thick skin, and plays like she's got thick skin, and her bite inhibition is just enough to keep the other dogs playing with her, just enough to not get snubbed (with other dogs, humans are teeth off, period). So, maybe
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