I haven't seen the photos she posted, so I don't know. Poor ShaSha had Entropion when he was brought in to the rescue, but later while we were fostering him we discovered he had a Luxating Patella, too. We found this out only right before he was adopted, and combined with the bite incident, I was surprised that his new family still took him. Now we found out that he also had joint damage in the same leg that looks like a badly healed injury. That damage caused the Luxating Patella and complicates (eg. more expensive) the surgery he needs. Poor boy!
I'll make another post about him, the before and after pictures are pretty awesome. I've derailed this topic enough.
@Nekopan: Yes, you are right and I fully agree; even though it's a twin, it would be very wrong of us not to treat these two dogs as two individuals, but it would also be wrong to ignore the fact they do share things in common. And by that I don't mean their appearance, but things that really really contribute to their personalities, such as; posture, movements, attitude, nice smells, fondness of toys etc. This can occur with two non-twins just as well, but genetically more so with twins I reckon.
Humans have complex supercomputers (so called brains ?!?) to help them out, they can verbally communicate what they like or dislike and can understand and explain complicated concepts like "democracy" and "freedom of expression". But these are dogs and don't think like humans and don't act as humans; they don't even understand what being a twin means. Heck, they probably don't even realize what traits they do share in common
So I reckon, for our two funny fluffy doggies, its oftentimes difficult to cope with the commonly shared "likes" and "wants" by stealing toys and cookies/bones back and forth continuously up to the point of utter frustration (trust me; they're spending an eternity running after one another for 1 toy, not playing with it). Now they're simply trying to protect what they find important, which are usually the very same item(s). They've learned to fend off and defend value and they value the same things; it's clear the other can't be trusted being around important stuff, so "get lost!" and stay away.
Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think this is about jealousy (not even close), just plain resouce guarding and distrusting each other. One sibling is thinking "hey girl, it's cool you're here, just don't touch my stuff!" and the other sibling is probably thinking more in the lines of "hey girl, it's cool you're here, just don't touch my stuff!" ... I believe this to be a display of survival instinct of two dogs in dispute and nothing more.
I think it's normal and often playful behavior of a dog, to try and pry, picking on others, in order to play with or chew on whatever another dog has. It's cool and fun to watch them enjoy and play together like this, but they don't consider the consequences, and in a way neither do we We look at them go and think they're "playing together nicely, how cute!!!", while in fact they're struggling just to be able to play.
We have to make them stop in time when they're both chasing the same item. And let each play on their own in order for them both to also have moments of relaxation and actually being able to play with a toy or chew on a bone without danger of the other quickly running off with it (again). I think this is manageable and can be trained when they are together. However, since it's about "trust", it will still take some considerable time.
Tylan writes: One sibling is thinking "hey girl, it's cool you're here, just don't touch my stuff!" and the other sibling is probably thinking more in the lines of "hey girl, it's cool you're here, just don't touch my stuff!" ... I believe this to be a display of survival instinct of two dogs in dispute and nothing more.
--Great... but whatever the case it is still a power struggle. We can assume all the motives and place our human interpretation on to it that we wish. However, we will never truly know. It is equally plausible that each dog has a set need for a specific space territory and clearly one is attempting to push the other out of that within certain boundaries given certain criteria. Call it resource guarding if you will on a much grander scale. This type of issue is a very tough thing to deal with since it is not merely personal objects but can involve a whole home. Also this type of situation can be life long once the "slap down" has occurred and mentally the light bulb goes off with the sibling forced to spar.
Tylan writes: "It's cool and fun to watch them enjoy and play together like this, but they don't consider the consequences, and in a way neither do we We look at them go and think they're "playing together nicely, how cute!!!", while in fact they're struggling just to be able to play."
--Personally I don't see the resource guarding of a specific object (unless it is the bicycle) in the videos (maybe the trigger occurred way before the camera rolled). What I do see though is pronounced bullying behavior that escalates very quickly within a certain domain, maybe because of learned inappropriate play style that drifts into aggression. Often this is likely due to lack of intervention by older wiser canine mentors (in canine social sphere older peers will often attempt to break that type of heated behavior up or divert it), or there are problems with resource guarding of some type (as others have mentioned) or possibly a combination of both.
--In any case, absence of intervention by peer group canines and/or lack of correct input by humans to break up the rudeness at the trigger can deepen the riff. Keep in mind it also can be the case at this point that human intervention will be somewhat disregarded. It really depends on the case and specific personality of the dogs themselves and stage of development. Honestly given their age they are on a very fine line developmentally, it can go either way. We can not see them day to day or your work with them, I hope their selective competitive animosity is not too ingrained.... particularly if one dog is very tenacious.....Some of this may also be genetic which will make it hard to move past given the inherent nature of the dogs themselves. Time will tell.
--Again, and I am sure you appear to be aware of by now....The bottom line is this type of behavior will have to be stopped before anyone gets hurt, hopefully by successful use of many of the tips above, or eventual permanent separation of both animals. Additionally, thoughts on how much management that you wish to put forth is critical for harmonious living. Not to be redundant, considerations must be made based on how their interactions are affecting their social and mental development. We can wish all the wishes in the world, some dogs have a hard time co-existing.
Tylan writes: We have to make them stop in time when they're both chasing the same item. And let each play on their own in order for them both to also have moments of relaxation and actually being able to play with a toy or chew on a bone without danger of the other quickly running off with it (again). I think this is manageable and can be trained when they are together. However, since it's about "trust", it will still take some considerable time.
--Possession of personal items by particular dogs is a hard thing to break, if at all. Good luck with that part. Keep in mind sharing probably may not be part their individual ideologies, particularly anything that is novel...be prepared to readjust your expectations any point along the way.
Thanks again for all the info and interest all the posters have shown!
Just wanted to let you know, we are doing great... meaning us AND the twin ! As soon as we hear the growls become nastier then they should (Shikoku's do tend to just growl for communication as well, as we have noticed often lately, we don't want to cut them off either), we break it off. Neither of them has been afraid since, it even seems the trust is building up again and what's more... they are more and more becoming individuals because of the separate stuff we do with them: taking one out to play/walk/train while the other stays put or hangs out with one of the other family members (enough of those around ).
We still have a LOT of ground to cover, but thanks to some very good points given and the positive criticism, we have a much more clear idea of what to do and where to go.
Great! Glad you are making progress. Also watch out for the very stiff posture that can preclude a fight (the first video you posted is a good example).
Oh by the way, the stiff posture is certainly an obvious sign there is trouble brewing, however, some dogs never give that clear of an indicator, particularly if they get more savvy in regard to arguing. Between dogs it could merely be a quick glance or slight lip curl before warfare ensues. Hopefully that won't be the case but it is something to be aware of.
There is a decent video and book by Turid Rugass that discusses calming signals between dogs, people etc with images. It is worth it to review.
i watched the video, and i recognized a lot of the same behaviour that i saw with my shiba (tama) and my shikoku puppy, my shiba was behaving in the same way, and our natural thing to do was protect the puppy, the shikoku.. and after every fight kaito was growling, like he was saying leave me alone..it went on and on , and we didn't know what to do, we tried holding tama on a leash even inside the house.. but it didn't work, so we went to see a dogtrainer and asked what the problem was.. he said that the shikoku pup had to be submissive to our shiba, that was the problem, our shikoku was to dominant, even in a new situation and with the dogtrainer's dogs he was trying to take the upper hand.. and we didn't recognize the signals from our pup. he was sitting very close to us, but that was his way of saying to our shiba : i can sit next to my bosses, so my position is higher than yours.. the dogtrainer told us that we should respect the rangorder, it was first our shiba.. so the shiba should be next to us, and not our shikoku.. so we tried those rules and it worked bit by bit, they didn't fight anymore, cause kaito knew his position.. he still tries to take the upper hand and dominate our shiba.. you know they don't give up..
what i saw in the video was a sample of determinating the rangorder, and the one that was attacked wasn't submissive.. so that's why it still occurs..
and ok it's not the way that dog's should behave, but it can not always be avoided, cause when you're not around it will happen.. the just have to determine who's the boss of the two and you have to treat them that way, it's the same as they behave in the wild, there are always packleaders .. and yes we humans are the pack leaders, but there are still positions between the dogs as well..
Well... it's a great thing that posture hasn't been seen since that day! We do have a lot of attention now on every possible other sign or signal they give, making it clear they don't want to be together.
It's becoming obvious they do need some separate training/playing time to evolve some individuality. When we take them both on a walk, there will be some noise or something around the corner they haven't met yet and we actually notice them waiting for one another to go any further. It's not really a bad thing in itself to know you aren't alone, but it would be good if they got enough self trust, they don't need assurance from each other. They still have a long way to go after all . Also checking each other on how to react to people they encounter, Futago usually is the more social one, not minding being pet or stroked (in moderation ), but due to Sugoi's uneasiness with strangers, she starts being uptight as well. Now Futago can learn it's ok to meet other people/dogs and might teach her sister how it's done instead of becoming nervous herself from Sugoi's behavior. And of course it's easier to correct one dog and make it stick, then having two dogs trying to make them listen through all the noise they are making themselves!
Being separate on a regular basis, is helping them rest more often as well. Not having to play when they don't want to, because the other isn't feeling tired or simply not giving in to it, but taking a nap as puppies still need to do a lot. Sugoi is very happy with her own crate also, being able to relax and chew on her bone as long as she wants is a very positive point!
It really is a lot of help writing all this down, as it makes it more clear for myself. We do talk a lot about it at home, but reading it over again, makes me more aware of how/what and why we do it!
Just wanted to give an update to all who reacted on our first video... that one we did take away, as it sure wasn't behavior we enjoyed watching.
Things that changed: - eating is done inside the crates - during the evenings they get to spend about an hour or 2 each separate - as soon as they start to growl to each other, we jump in... they get separated, or they can have a "time-out" inside their crates if the tension is to high - it's less and less of a problem when greeting long lost members of the family... they both try to jump into their arms now instead of growling to each other as they wanted all of the attention to themselves - they spend hours in each others company without one angry look
and they can share toys (not always) but as one can see here it's getting better and better
One thing that still gives a problem is their crates... specially Sugoi tends to think she has to defend it to her last breath, while Futago cannot be damned if her twin is hanging around, so... still some work to be done, but we are very happy with the way things are going so far!!
@Sandra I'm glad to hear that things are working out better. I dare say that I wish you had kept the original video up. It helps to show us how dogs communicate and how we as humans can learn to read them. I thought it was a great tool for new owners and people wishing to own NK's.
Beautiful dogs! I wish you kept the originals up too
I have an example of my 2 girls possibly being aggressive? There's no biting or squealing, and I've only done minimal intervention so far (and took them inside to sit and play with them with 1 toy and there was no growling). I'm not sure if I should just let them play like this or break them up and calm them down. Sakura (white JA) is the noisy/snarky one, but I'm sure Taki gets off a few growls too. Also, they growl when they play without a toy, it just doesn't escalate to quite this level.
@slkblaze: Puppies tend to be a lot more vocal in their play. Everything I'm seeing in your 2 vids is still what I would consider acceptable for play. From what you've shown here, Sakura is a bit of a resource guarder (toy) against Taki, a little more so than Taki. But you're staying on top of it so I think it'll be fine.
@slkblaze I see a little bit of toy guarding when she was growling at you for taking her toy. Nothing too crazy though that can't be corrected. As for the growling/barking when they're playing and wrestling that seems very normal. Like Crimson said puppies are very vocal when they play, and NK in general can sound like they're out for blood when playing. If I wasn't familiar with my previous Shiba's play vocals I would have thought he was angry and wanted to bite me or the other dog lol. The "butt bumps" that Taki is giving Sakura is indicative of play, as well as the little "play bows" that Sakura gives once or twice, with her butt in the air and chest on the ground. Also Sakuras vocals are very high pitched and short, like when my Ren is playing with my sister's dog Keanu, Keanu gives short high pitched barks when wrestling to indicate he wants her to play more or he's having fun.
Good to know it's nothing to be too concerned about . Taki was always such a quiet puppy (when she wasn't making bloodcurdling screams from her crate, lol)
@cezieg Yeah, that was the first and only time she's every growled at me. I stopped playing with her when she did that to try to communicate that growling at me ended the fun.
@T_dog here are the video links www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvvfCg_fzwM www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKv6L2YsN9c
I have a male JA and a male Shiba. Your Shiba is behaving just like mine. My Shiba is 2.5 yrs old and my JA is 1.5 approx. Now both full grown. My shiba has been taking bones and toys from my akita since he was 13 weeks old. He does this I think to say in the not so popular way to say it alpha position. Now I allow this because it keeps my akita used to my shiba doing this. Hense my akita has a great deal of patients with the shiba. As your akita gets bigger he will be capable of mutilating your shiba. So it is very important that he learns he can't get ruff with the shiba. Also remember your shiba will not back down. He will not show your akita weakness nor fear. One day tour akita will disagree with the shiba. When this happens do not put your hands in between their mouths you will get bit. By accident. In my house grabbing the akita first is a mistake. Because my akita is usually not the aggressor. I grab the shiba. Why, well because when I grab the akita and pull him away the shiba charges. When I grab the shiba the akita walks away. Probably not the same for all owners. Now they have not drawn blood since the akita was 13 weeks on the first day home when the shiba bit the akita on the nose. Now there is still scar. Your shiba will stare your akita in the eye and or right at the toy he wants. He will put his paw on it. While the akita squeals saying don't do it. So the shiba pauses still has the paw on the bone. Waits and stresses the akita out slowly taking his bone. The shiba will lay on his side and paw the bone with a half growl kind noise. If challenged with physical confrontation the shiba will be the first to draw blood and will not back down even if hurt. I have not had any incidences yet. My akita will get really nasty but has not drawn blood on the shiba. On the shiba he has not drawn blood ii emphasize that. They grew up togeather and my shiba is the only dog that can take my akitas bone. I now separate them when I leave because if they do have a disagreement I want to be there. Why because once they go medieval on each other they may never stop and I don't want to come home to a dead shiba. Like I said only once was there blood drawn and it was the shiba who drew first blood. Now at the dog park my akita will fight for little reason. He won't take no stuff from my brothers lab Shepard or pincher. But my shiba can get away with anything. Most the time. But this must be nurtured you have to teach your akita to not be aggressive with the shiba. The best way to do that is if the akita knows you will stop the shiba from disrespecting him. He won't have to. So if your akita get angry then you step in and stop the shiba from doing what ever is making him mad. See then u are listing to the warning signs. Don't teach you akita not to growl of you will get surprise attacks. Listen to your akita and get him away from situations that he don't like. Your dogs if supervised when they play and not left alone on the same room will grow to love each other and you will not have as many problems do not subscribe to the "let them figure it out" school of thought these are not labs. Discourage ruff play. And imo if they are making noise shit is about to hit the fan. This is my experience with my two.
You know good play with these breeds IMO when there is little noise and the joules are down notice when Ares my akita is playing u see very little teeth. When you see teeth IMO he is not playing. The shiba is pretty much the same. My shiba makes noise during tug and they make little noises when playing. You should separate if the noise level get to loud. You will kinda learn the level of noise tells you a lot about when to separate them.
Comments
I'll make another post about him, the before and after pictures are pretty awesome. I've derailed this topic enough.
Humans have complex supercomputers (so called brains ?!?) to help them out, they can verbally communicate what they like or dislike and can understand and explain complicated concepts like "democracy" and "freedom of expression". But these are dogs and don't think like humans and don't act as humans; they don't even understand what being a twin means. Heck, they probably don't even realize what traits they do share in common
So I reckon, for our two funny fluffy doggies, its oftentimes difficult to cope with the commonly shared "likes" and "wants" by stealing toys and cookies/bones back and forth continuously up to the point of utter frustration (trust me; they're spending an eternity running after one another for 1 toy, not playing with it). Now they're simply trying to protect what they find important, which are usually the very same item(s). They've learned to fend off and defend value and they value the same things; it's clear the other can't be trusted being around important stuff, so "get lost!" and stay away.
Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think this is about jealousy (not even close), just plain resouce guarding and distrusting each other. One sibling is thinking "hey girl, it's cool you're here, just don't touch my stuff!" and the other sibling is probably thinking more in the lines of "hey girl, it's cool you're here, just don't touch my stuff!"
I think it's normal and often playful behavior of a dog, to try and pry, picking on others, in order to play with or chew on whatever another dog has. It's cool and fun to watch them enjoy and play together like this, but they don't consider the consequences, and in a way neither do we
We have to make them stop in time when they're both chasing the same item. And let each play on their own in order for them both to also have moments of relaxation and actually being able to play with a toy or chew on a bone without danger of the other quickly running off with it (again). I think this is manageable and can be trained when they are together. However, since it's about "trust", it will still take some considerable time.
--Great... but whatever the case it is still a power struggle. We can assume all the motives and place our human interpretation on to it that we wish. However, we will never truly know. It is equally plausible that each dog has a set need for a specific space territory and clearly one is attempting to push the other out of that within certain boundaries given certain criteria. Call it resource guarding if you will on a much grander scale. This type of issue is a very tough thing to deal with since it is not merely personal objects but can involve a whole home. Also this type of situation can be life long once the "slap down" has occurred and mentally the light bulb goes off with the sibling forced to spar.
Tylan writes: "It's cool and fun to watch them enjoy and play together like this, but they don't consider the consequences, and in a way neither do we
--Personally I don't see the resource guarding of a specific object (unless it is the bicycle) in the videos (maybe the trigger occurred way before the camera rolled). What I do see though is pronounced bullying behavior that escalates very quickly within a certain domain, maybe because of learned inappropriate play style that drifts into aggression. Often this is likely due to lack of intervention by older wiser canine mentors (in canine social sphere older peers will often attempt to break that type of heated behavior up or divert it), or there are problems with resource guarding of some type (as others have mentioned) or possibly a combination of both.
--In any case, absence of intervention by peer group canines and/or lack of correct input by humans to break up the rudeness at the trigger can deepen the riff. Keep in mind it also can be the case at this point that human intervention will be somewhat disregarded. It really depends on the case and specific personality of the dogs themselves and stage of development. Honestly given their age they are on a very fine line developmentally, it can go either way. We can not see them day to day or your work with them, I hope their selective competitive animosity is not too ingrained.... particularly if one dog is very tenacious.....Some of this may also be genetic which will make it hard to move past given the inherent nature of the dogs themselves. Time will tell.
--Again, and I am sure you appear to be aware of by now....The bottom line is this type of behavior will have to be stopped before anyone gets hurt, hopefully by successful use of many of the tips above, or eventual permanent separation of both animals. Additionally, thoughts on how much management that you wish to put forth is critical for harmonious living. Not to be redundant, considerations must be made based on how their interactions are affecting their social and mental development. We can wish all the wishes in the world, some dogs have a hard time co-existing.
Tylan writes: We have to make them stop in time when they're both chasing the same item. And let each play on their own in order for them both to also have moments of relaxation and actually being able to play with a toy or chew on a bone without danger of the other quickly running off with it (again). I think this is manageable and can be trained when they are together. However, since it's about "trust", it will still take some considerable time.
--Possession of personal items by particular dogs is a hard thing to break, if at all. Good luck with that part. Keep in mind sharing probably may not be part their individual ideologies, particularly anything that is novel...be prepared to readjust your expectations any point along the way.
Snf
Thanks again for all the info and interest all the posters have shown!
Just wanted to let you know, we are doing great... meaning us AND the twin
As soon as we hear the growls become nastier then they should (Shikoku's do tend to just growl for communication as well, as we have noticed often lately, we don't want to cut them off either), we break it off. Neither of them has been afraid since, it even seems the trust is building up again and what's more... they are more and more becoming individuals because of the separate stuff we do with them: taking one out to play/walk/train while the other stays put or hangs out with one of the other family members (enough of those around
We still have a LOT of ground to cover, but thanks to some very good points given and the positive criticism, we have a much more clear idea of what to do and where to go.
Some other movies posted in a different thread as I thought they would be more appropriate there : http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/7148/one-shikoku-mess...-/#Item_1
Greetings!
Sandra
Oh by the way, the stiff posture is certainly an obvious sign there is trouble brewing, however, some dogs never give that clear of an indicator, particularly if they get more savvy in regard to arguing. Between dogs it could merely be a quick glance or slight lip curl before warfare ensues. Hopefully that won't be the case but it is something to be aware of.
There is a decent video and book by Turid Rugass that discusses calming signals between dogs, people etc with images. It is worth it to review.
Snf
what i saw in the video was a sample of determinating the rangorder, and the one that was attacked wasn't submissive.. so that's why it still occurs..
and ok it's not the way that dog's should behave, but it can not always be avoided, cause when you're not around it will happen.. the just have to determine who's the boss of the two and you have to treat them that way, it's the same as they behave in the wild, there are always packleaders .. and yes we humans are the pack leaders, but there are still positions between the dogs as well..
Well... it's a great thing that posture hasn't been seen since that day! We do have a lot of attention now on every possible other sign or signal they give, making it clear they don't want to be together.
It's becoming obvious they do need some separate training/playing time to evolve some individuality. When we take them both on a walk, there will be some noise or something around the corner they haven't met yet and we actually notice them waiting for one another to go any further. It's not really a bad thing in itself to know you aren't alone, but it would be good if they got enough self trust, they don't need assurance from each other. They still have a long way to go after all
Also checking each other on how to react to people they encounter, Futago usually is the more social one, not minding being pet or stroked (in moderation
Being separate on a regular basis, is helping them rest more often as well. Not having to play when they don't want to, because the other isn't feeling tired or simply not giving in to it, but taking a nap as puppies still need to do a lot. Sugoi is very happy with her own crate also, being able to relax and chew on her bone as long as she wants is a very positive point!
It really is a lot of help writing all this down, as it makes it more clear for myself. We do talk a lot about it at home, but reading it over again, makes me more aware of how/what and why we do it!
Have a great day!
Sandra
Just wanted to give an update to all who reacted on our first video... that one we did take away, as it sure wasn't behavior we enjoyed watching.
Things that changed:
- eating is done inside the crates
- during the evenings they get to spend about an hour or 2 each separate
- as soon as they start to growl to each other, we jump in... they get separated, or they can have a "time-out" inside their crates if the tension is to high
- it's less and less of a problem when greeting long lost members of the family... they both try to jump into their arms now instead of growling to each other as they wanted all of the attention to themselves
- they spend hours in each others company without one angry look
and they can share toys (not always) but as one can see here
One thing that still gives a problem is their crates... specially Sugoi tends to think she has to defend it to her last breath, while Futago cannot be damned if her twin is hanging around, so... still some work to be done, but we are very happy with the way things are going so far!!
Have a nice day
Sandra
And yes, it was a very helpful video....
I have an example of my 2 girls possibly being aggressive? There's no biting or squealing, and I've only done minimal intervention so far (and took them inside to sit and play with them with 1 toy and there was no growling). I'm not sure if I should just let them play like this or break them up and calm them down. Sakura (white JA) is the noisy/snarky one, but I'm sure Taki gets off a few growls too. Also, they growl when they play without a toy, it just doesn't escalate to quite this level.
Here are the vids:
(hope videos work..)
@cezieg Yeah, that was the first and only time she's every growled at me. I stopped playing with her when she did that to try to communicate that growling at me ended the fun.
@T_dog here are the video links
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvvfCg_fzwM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKv6L2YsN9c
You know good play with these breeds IMO when there is little noise and the joules are down notice when Ares my akita is playing u see very little teeth. When you see teeth IMO he is not playing. The shiba is pretty much the same. My shiba makes noise during tug and they make little noises when playing. You should separate if the noise level get to loud. You will kinda learn the level of noise tells you a lot about when to separate them.