@ Brad: I have had the same experience you describe with Luytiy where a dog does not recognize former owners. However, I don't think the bond happens only at younger age it can happen at any age. There are some dogs that simply do not care once the original owner is out of the picture nor when he/she comes back in to it. Some animals connect better with one set of people/person(s) than others. Maybe there was little investment by either party to begin with the reason it happens. I also have seen it with an owner that really cared for a dog and visited after adoption and the dog was like "who are you". Sometimes the guarding reflex outweigh the bonds. Some dogs do not generalize well, out of sight out of mind.
@ poeticdragon: thanks for the article. I feel you nailed it precisely with the statement "Learning respect is not about "the differences between good and bad" but about etiquette".
About morality and dogs....I tend to step out on the dog moral issue though.....in our household we have thieves among us....no contemplative moral thoughts are rolling around in my dogs heads it seems....the "mine" factor outweighs loftier goals in our group in their personal dynamics (LOL). I guess my dogs are jerks like the parking thief. No manner of chatting or "training" is going to change it. I like to think of them as mere opportunists so I reconcile the behavior better and not feel walked all over (LOL).
@brada1878 - *kel unleashes Ciqala and her pint-sized headbutting madness to stop brad* haha
btw I will try to get a vid. of her doing this. It's such a bizarre behavior. Also, a prime example of the role context plays in dog manners. She actually just did it to me about 10 minutes ago, lol. She only does it if she's comfortable with the other person/dog, otherwise she's on her p's and q's. @poeticdragon - do you think this is a form of "endearment" in terms of etiquette?
Is there any literature on this imprinting or is it just an idea?
So, does anyone think that the "one person bonding/imprinting" is more of a breed specific thing? I know we've all heard stories of those amazing dogs who do anything to get back to that"one person". Or the example of the NK who was always waiting at the train station for his owner to return for the rest of his own doggie life? Or, I'm also thinking of in the wars where they tried to use Dobies but had to switch to the German Shep's because the Dobies were too one person loyal? I think the same was true about the Kai, am I remembering that correctly?
@brada1878 - I agree a lot about the imprinting. I've also read, I think it was in the book from the monks who raise the German Shepherds (I think??), that pups brought into a new home will imprint more on existing dogs in the family rather than the people... has anyone experienced that, or heard that? We haven't had a problem with that, per-say...
And of course there is no way to know what a rescue dog would have turned out like if we had adopted it as a puppy - might have been as aloof as she is now, could just be how she is, lol. My last rescue dog who is passed away went the other way and was completely OCD with me... he too, may have been that way even if I'd had him at 2-3 months instead of 6... No way to truly know, I guess. (
Wow! Very cool article! Thanks @brada1878!! I've always imprinted horses and our goats and I guess I always thought of it as primarily beneficial to prey animals... Nice, lol now I know!!! ) Wish I would have imprinted our ducks more now... never even thought of doing that for them...lol
Caraboo asks: So, does anyone think that the "one person bonding/imprinting" is more of a breed specific thing?
I would say there can be more propensity in a breed or even a single genetic line that is characteristic within a breed to do this. You mention Dobermans. In comparing Dobermans with Shibas I would say they both bond but the outward expression of it and the need of the Doberman to be in contact is far greater than in a Shiba. All of the Dobermans I have had in the past where like glue and had a distinct boundary in terms of property and inventory as well. Different mind set. However, you can not underestimate bonding in a Shiba. Many tend to love from a far and of course when that are less distracted (LOL).
Caraboo you ask: pups brought into a new home will imprint more on existing dogs in the family rather than the people... has anyone experienced that, or heard that?
I have not noticed that too much. Mainly, in my opinion, if there is an age difference in the dogs that pretty much stops that because of development phases. Also if there is enough enrichment by humans and other activities I think it spreads the need to do that out as well. On the other hand if siblings of the same or close to the same age are brought up together at the same time this is where you may see this behavior cropping up, particularly if you are not training separately.
Personally I am not big on Monks of New Skete. Their original info/old text is geared to one breed of dog and really other than historical diversity in reading in regard to training, I tend to skip the older mantra of advice.
@ brad: The info by Lorenz is a standard reference, however, I don't recall if there were updates to it etc. I think the most important tidbit to consider is in the text "Some behaviours are affected by imprinting more than others" and I think some species more so as well. Ducks and Turkeys for example will have a variation on imprinting. I also think this can be true of certain breeds within a species such as dogs. Sheep vs goats even in cetaceans. These are my mere observations over time.... I can not validate any research at this point. I am sure it is out there though.
@ Yandharr: Interesting. If you do get a video of the behavior you describe please post it.
Well we had an issue when my wife and I moved in together.
Kaede and I lived alone for the first two year of K's life. I had a girlfriend when I first got K and for the most part she liked my girlfriend. However she was very standoffish with other girls that I met later. When my wife and I started dating, K was very warm to her. In fact I was surprised at how warm she was. This all changed when we moved into our house. About a week after we moved in I got a call, informing me that K pooped in the house. A few days later this happened again. What was odd, was that I had just taken her outside to go for a potty walk. My wife also informed me that, after I left for work...
KAEDE WOULD WALK RIGHT UP TO HER AND POOP - usually no more than a few inches in front of her while staring at my wife.
After I was done laughing at my wife, I decided that I need to see this for myself. The next day I left for work but when I did I unlocked the front door and went out the back. I quickly parked my car and ran through the front door. There was K about a foot away from my wife, looking at her, with her butt in the doggy poop position. I let off a loud no and started moving towards K, who in turn tried to run while in said poop position. She made it out the back door and upon her return slinked into her crate.
@*JackBurton* - I'll be honest with you here, to me it sounds like K gets excited about your wife and loses control of her pooper. Lani used to do this when we would take her in the car, she would crap herself if we didn't make sure she got it out beforehand. Actually, I think Hilo did that once too. I've seen this behavior in other Akita (owned by friends) as well, and have dubbed the breed "excitement poopers".
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@StaticNfuzz - Yep, that's the standard Lorenz stuff I shared. I searched a bit for some text related to canine behavior and imprinting but only found less-known (untrusted) sources.
I know Coppinger has written about the importance of imprinting in LGD (both directions: flock <--> dog). Also sled dogs too (imprinting to the harness). I've also heard a lot of PPD trainers chat about the value of imprinting certain behaviors in a PP dog.
However, I totally agree that different behaviors will imprint stronger than others, and will very significantly depending on the type of animal. I also think it varies a lot based simply on the individual too.
@StaticNfuzz That makes total sense ) I grew up with Dobermans too and they were same as you described above. Great, great dogs. As an adult my first dog was a heeler mix that I rescued. So my entire life growing up with dogs was with dogs who exhibit an extreme need to be glued to me, which now... I can understand that might be looked at as being "more bonded" when actuality is it's just different needs that the dog itself has!
The loving from afar vs. having to be right with you at every moment of every day..lol, makes sense. My husky mix is the first dog I've owned that has been more independent, yet no less loyal. She also has Border Collie in her, but for the most part exhibits husky traits. I've found that although I will always love the Dobie I do really like Mirra's independence and security at being "further" away from me. Kitora is the same but is much more energetic about physical contact when "checking in". For me, I think the Kai is that good balance in between the two (so far anyway...haha, she is only 5 months old...lol j/k) And I'd have to say that my transition from the "stuck like glue" to "I need to check out the property" was a harder one. It took me quite a long time to realize that Mirra wasn't doing it because she "didn't want to be with me" It was just more her nature to explore, and I love it!
My farriers wife raises LGD's and she says that whatever livestock they are raised/imprinted with is what they will protect, including humans. They do imprint their dogs with the human family even though the pups are born and raised with the herds and have had no issues with the dogs not doing their job because of human contact. Which I think is great, I had read conflicting stories on that...
@*JackBurton* I hope that since your wife's experience that this behavior is fixed... ) I couldn't help but laugh and feel bad for her all at the same time!!!
My friend has a Labrador, and we constantly joke that its so bad with the Lab always underfoot, they're not happy unless they are literally IN your shoes.
To add a little bit, and perhaps go back a ways, there are a lot of people who misunderstand the "alpha dog" mentality. usually when i hear people thinking it is about controlling the actions of the pack and always getting their way, i direct them to a site i found a while ago. fairly interesting, albeit lengthy read. It is about wolves, yes, but of course that's where our little lovely friends get all of this behavior to begin with.
Comments
@ poeticdragon: thanks for the article. I feel you nailed it precisely with the statement "Learning respect is not about "the differences between good and bad" but about etiquette".
About morality and dogs....I tend to step out on the dog moral issue though.....in our household we have thieves among us....no contemplative moral thoughts are rolling around in my dogs heads it seems....the "mine" factor outweighs loftier goals in our group in their personal dynamics (LOL). I guess my dogs are jerks like the parking thief. No manner of chatting or "training" is going to change it. I like to think of them as mere opportunists so I reconcile the behavior better and not feel walked all over (LOL).
Snf
btw I will try to get a vid. of her doing this. It's such a bizarre behavior. Also, a prime example of the role context plays in dog manners. She actually just did it to me about 10 minutes ago, lol. She only does it if she's comfortable with the other person/dog, otherwise she's on her p's and q's. @poeticdragon - do you think this is a form of "endearment" in terms of etiquette?
Is there any literature on this imprinting or is it just an idea?
Or, I'm also thinking of in the wars where they tried to use Dobies but had to switch to the German Shep's because the Dobies were too one person loyal? I think the same was true about the Kai, am I remembering that correctly?
@brada1878 - I agree a lot about the imprinting. I've also read, I think it was in the book from the monks who raise the German Shepherds (I think??), that pups brought into a new home will imprint more on existing dogs in the family rather than the people... has anyone experienced that, or heard that? We haven't had a problem with that, per-say...
And of course there is no way to know what a rescue dog would have turned out like if we had adopted it as a puppy - might have been as aloof as she is now, could just be how she is, lol. My last rescue dog who is passed away went the other way and was completely OCD with me... he too, may have been that way even if I'd had him at 2-3 months instead of 6... No way to truly know, I guess.
As for imprinting, check this out: http://animalbehaviour.net/Imprinting.htm
Wish I would have imprinted our ducks more now... never even thought of doing that for them...lol
I would say there can be more propensity in a breed or even a single genetic line that is characteristic within a breed to do this. You mention Dobermans. In comparing Dobermans with Shibas I would say they both bond but the outward expression of it and the need of the Doberman to be in contact is far greater than in a Shiba. All of the Dobermans I have had in the past where like glue and had a distinct boundary in terms of property and inventory as well. Different mind set. However, you can not underestimate bonding in a Shiba. Many tend to love from a far and of course when that are less distracted (LOL).
Caraboo you ask: pups brought into a new home will imprint more on existing dogs in the family rather than the people... has anyone experienced that, or heard that?
I have not noticed that too much. Mainly, in my opinion, if there is an age difference in the dogs that pretty much stops that because of development phases. Also if there is enough enrichment by humans and other activities I think it spreads the need to do that out as well. On the other hand if siblings of the same or close to the same age are brought up together at the same time this is where you may see this behavior cropping up, particularly if you are not training separately.
Personally I am not big on Monks of New Skete. Their original info/old text is geared to one breed of dog and really other than historical diversity in reading in regard to training, I tend to skip the older mantra of advice.
@ brad: The info by Lorenz is a standard reference, however, I don't recall if there were updates to it etc. I think the most important tidbit to consider is in the text "Some behaviours are affected by imprinting more than others" and I think some species more so as well. Ducks and Turkeys for example will have a variation on imprinting. I also think this can be true of certain breeds within a species such as dogs. Sheep vs goats even in cetaceans. These are my mere observations over time.... I can not validate any research at this point. I am sure it is out there though.
@ Yandharr: Interesting. If you do get a video of the behavior you describe please post it.
Snf
Kaede and I lived alone for the first two year of K's life. I had a girlfriend when I first got K and for the most part she liked my girlfriend. However she was very standoffish with other girls that I met later. When my wife and I started dating, K was very warm to her. In fact I was surprised at how warm she was. This all changed when we moved into our house. About a week after we moved in I got a call, informing me that K pooped in the house. A few days later this happened again. What was odd, was that I had just taken her outside to go for a potty walk. My wife also informed me that, after I left for work...
KAEDE WOULD WALK RIGHT UP TO HER AND POOP - usually no more than a few inches in front of her while staring at my wife.
After I was done laughing at my wife, I decided that I need to see this for myself. The next day I left for work but when I did I unlocked the front door and went out the back. I quickly parked my car and ran through the front door. There was K about a foot away from my wife, looking at her, with her butt in the doggy poop position. I let off a loud no and started moving towards K, who in turn tried to run while in said poop position. She made it out the back door and upon her return slinked into her crate.
At the house the official term is "Poop Spiting"
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@StaticNfuzz - Yep, that's the standard Lorenz stuff I shared. I searched a bit for some text related to canine behavior and imprinting but only found less-known (untrusted) sources.
I know Coppinger has written about the importance of imprinting in LGD (both directions: flock <--> dog). Also sled dogs too (imprinting to the harness). I've also heard a lot of PPD trainers chat about the value of imprinting certain behaviors in a PP dog.
However, I totally agree that different behaviors will imprint stronger than others, and will very significantly depending on the type of animal. I also think it varies a lot based simply on the individual too.
----
The loving from afar vs. having to be right with you at every moment of every day..lol, makes sense. My husky mix is the first dog I've owned that has been more independent, yet no less loyal. She also has Border Collie in her, but for the most part exhibits husky traits. I've found that although I will always love the Dobie I do really like Mirra's independence and security at being "further" away from me. Kitora is the same but is much more energetic about physical contact when "checking in". For me, I think the Kai is that good balance in between the two (so far anyway...haha, she is only 5 months old...lol j/k) And I'd have to say that my transition from the "stuck like glue" to "I need to check out the property" was a harder one. It took me quite a long time to realize that Mirra wasn't doing it because she "didn't want to be with me" It was just more her nature to explore, and I love it!
My farriers wife raises LGD's and she says that whatever livestock they are raised/imprinted with is what they will protect, including humans. They do imprint their dogs with the human family even though the pups are born and raised with the herds and have had no issues with the dogs not doing their job because of human contact. Which I think is great, I had read conflicting stories on that...
@*JackBurton* I hope that since your wife's experience that this behavior is fixed...
http://www.freewebs.com/alphawolfsabrina/socialorderandvisual.htm
There might be other, better places to get this from, but i can understand this one pretty well.