Haru is a great treeing dogs, she trees squirrel and barks at them. Cho Cho would do that too. But I have not seen Kishin do it, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't.
None of my NK airscent squirrel in trees the way my Laiki do, tho. Laika are small game dogs first, and large game dogs second. Their small game tracking ability is pretty impressive.
My Kai caught a baby rabbit recently. He didn't know what to do with it until he saw the other dogs wanted to eat it. So he ate it, but only because if he hadn't the other dogs would have. He's not showing a lot of interest in hunting!
More related to this topic, though, I've been wondering about the three hunting styles Brad mentioned above. So baying is holding the animal til the hunter can dispatch it. Catch actually engages the animal, and the Kishu hunting is catch and bay (is there a name for that?) What I'm wondering about is how bear were hunted with NKs in Japan. I would guess that was a bay style hunting? But in some of the training videos, it looks like the Hokkas are quite willing to try and engage with the bears too. How does it work with old style bear hunting with NKs? I wonder if way back when the Akitas were used, were they supposed to do a variety of catch and bay? Though it seems safer for the dog to only bay a bear.
@shibamistress - Bear hunting is done with bay dogs. The NK would bay or tree the bear, then the hunter would shoot it. Most good bear hunting dogs will bite the bear to distract it, but they are not biting and holding the bear - it's just a nip to get the bear to turn around - which enables the dogs to keep the bear in one area. Essentially bear dogs harass a bear to the point of flight but give the bear no option to run.
@jikjak - I don't hunt large game, but I do hunt ground hogs and possum with my shikoku. We have also hunted juvenile raccoons (and squirrels who ventured into the yard). For both, they generally are out to catch and kill it immediately by shaking. Both of mine with go in for the kill, but if the animal puts up a fight and they cannot get a good bite on it, both will switch to "bark to detain". My male especially will bark about a few inches away very loudly, and jumping out of the way to avoid the prey's teeth. Believe it or not, some ground hogs are mean and will put up a good fight (and at 13-15 lbs, they are not the easiest to kill for a 33-38 lb dog by shaking).
PS - no training was involved. Both went in on instinct, but both learned very quickly were to bite the prey to avoid the prey biting them back! Once a ground hog bit my male (only shikoku I had at the time) on the arm, hard, and that just made Kuma super bad and he screamed and went in and killed the ground hog immediately. I had someone tell my that their lab and rottweiler gave up hunting ground hogs after they got bitten by one, but not my shikoku.
awesome! i wish i had groundhogs here for them to try and catch. there are sometimes skunks and raccoons in the area though but i thought that raccoons can do a lot of damage to a dog and that its not worth letting them go after them.
maybe i should let him try and go after rabbits. at least he will chase a deer though but who knows what he would do if he could ever get his mouth on one.
The most important step is shooting the animal for the dog. Once the dog figures out you shoot it for them... the rest is just error and trial for the dog on his/her own.
@Edgewood@jikjak Very cool! Yeah large rodents are actually pretty darn dangerous! I've been advised to not let my future Red-Tail/Red-Shouldered Hawk go after squirrels due to their powerful teeth. Hawks have lost toes, even feet, before from single bites in the wrong places. I suppose bones and large veins are easier to cut through than acorns and wood heh. Raccoons are sorta crazy with how many diseases they carry too, in addition to rabies!
@souggy Interesting, they actually start relying on the hunter to kill the animal?
@brada1878@poeticdragon This is also offtopic, but do you know if JA's are still used in any sort of hunting?
Sorry for not explaining. Guess it's not inherently obvious. At first the dog will chase everything that movie. By shooting an animal, you are encouraging the dog's prey drive. At first, the dog's patience will wear thin and with each game taken, the dog learns to hold the animal longer before hunter arrives to shoot. So, at first, the puppy will be a bit spastic with very little attention span. The more game you shoot for it, the longer the attention span-- that is if you actually subconsciously reward longer periods with the "reward" or the killed game.
Also, when a puppy is young, they are only bold enough to take on smaller animals. So, when Pavel came to me, he was only bold enough to take on domestic cats, squirrels and chipmunks. His attention span was only about 15-30 seconds and he ignored bigger animals. As he matured, he became more confident enough to try and chase deer and moose. He also barked longer than at first. Whether or not you decide to take the animal he pursue will be reinforcing the behaviour. The more you focus on other animals, the more the prey drive is redirected. So, eventually the dog learns to ignore certain animals and go after desirable ones.
Right now I am in the process of deer-breaking.
DO NOT LET YOUR DOG CHASE DEER IN THE SNOW.
It is a hard habit to break when the dog learns it can potentially catch a deer in the deep snow. Usually the dog can't catch the deer in spring or fall, but when winter comes-- once the dog learns it can catch the deer, it's difficult to break without using aversive methods like e-collar.
That was the biggest mistake I have made: letting him almost catch a doe who was laying down in the snow.
just wondering, but why is it bad if the dog actually learns to catch the deer. is it dangerous to the dog or is it because the dog wont know whether or not the deer he tries to catch is allowed to be harvested or not?
@jikjak It's illegal in most parts of North America to let a dog chase deer. In some cases, any big-game animals.
For example, although bear-hunting is allowed in 28 states; only 20 of them allows dogs to be used in a bear-hunt. Or in the case of deer: Ontario is the only province in Canada which allows dogs to be used in a deer-hunt; Quebec, I am not so sure about. In the United States, there are only 10-14 states (regulations change all the time) which allows dogs to be used in a deer-hunt and they tend to be former Confederate states.
@Edgewood@jikjak Very cool! Yeah large rodents are actually pretty darn dangerous! I've been advised to not let my future Red-Tail/Red-Shouldered Hawk go after squirrels due to their powerful teeth. Hawks have losed toes, even feet, before from single bites in the wrong places. I suppose bones and large veins are easier to cut through than acorns and wood heh. Raccoons are sorta crazy with how many diseases they carry too, in addition to rabies!
@souggy Interesting, they actually start relying on the hunter to kill the animal?
@brada1878@poeticdragon This is also offtopic, but do you know if JA's are still used in any sort of hunting?
Wait! Your future hawk? Are you a falconer or learning to be one? That is only the COOLEST THING EVER! More info, please!
(one of the coolest things I remember from a natural history class in Alaska years ago was when a falconer came to class. He had a white phase gyrfalcon, like the most gorgeous bird of prey ever. He told us about getting his permit to capture a hatchling, and how he did it--and my god, that was a story!--and then we say the bird and it was just amazing!)
And a note about dogs and rodents: my vet said she sees a lot of injuries with dogs from gophers. Who would have thought? but gophers do have very large sharp teeth, and dogs apparently often get bit in the nose, muzzle or lips. Often from sticking their noses in gopher holes. We used to have some but Bel (shiba) killed them all, luckily with no injury to herself).
The last JA hunting lines I knew of were Morie's dogs (Dog Man: Uncommon Life on a Far Away Mountain). The majority of the population is separated by many decades from its hunting roots. From what I have seen of the Nihon Ken, today's Akitas have the least prey drive, too.
@souggy Ahhhh so it's doubly bad, one because it's reinforcing them to go after deer if they're not your target, and two because it's illegal and you'll get in a f-ton of trouble for it. That's a really neat way to train them for game. I wouldn't have thought shooting the prey would be considered a reward, because it's no longer something they can chase + they aren't eating the prey animal... or at least I wouldn't think a hunter would want that?
@poeticdragon Good to know. I'm guessing that line has pretty much died out even if one was to try to acquire one?
@shibamistress Maybe http://followgram.me/i/422632030693196286_987783 I'm networking to find a sponsor while studying to take the apprentice test. I have orientation tomorrow and will have my schedule (full time until summer semester starts). So I'm going to call Florida Fish & Wildlife on Monday to reserve a spot on the next testing day that coincides with a day off or far enough away that I can get the day off. That's so freaking cool that you go to see a white morph Gyr up close! They look so fierce and majestic, the Rolls Royce of falcons. My goal is to reach General status (2 years after issuance of Apprentice license), then trap a Harris Hawk and a Gyr or Peregrine. Harris are beautiful and the most social of hawks, and the dog fighting of Gyrs and the high altitude dives of Peregrines are amazing. I plan on training Ren to flush small game.
@cezieg Puppies are usually allowed to play with the animal or mouth the critter. Some hunters feed innards to the dog too. But yes, eating the actual animal is frown upon and is discouraged.
From this Swedish documentary (dubbed in Russian) [5:44 to 10:20], you can see how the dog is rewarded for his behaviour-- he is allowed to play with the bird, he gets the feet of the birds, the gizzards and so on.
wow, i didnt know that it was actually illegal. im going to check on the regulations in BC for using dogs to hunt bear as well. its definitely allowed for cougars though.
as for the deer ill just let him track it for me after the shot. he did a great job last january during bow season and he loves the downed game. he didnt want to let go of it!
Comments
None of my NK airscent squirrel in trees the way my Laiki do, tho. Laika are small game dogs first, and large game dogs second. Their small game tracking ability is pretty impressive.
More related to this topic, though, I've been wondering about the three hunting styles Brad mentioned above. So baying is holding the animal til the hunter can dispatch it. Catch actually engages the animal, and the Kishu hunting is catch and bay (is there a name for that?) What I'm wondering about is how bear were hunted with NKs in Japan. I would guess that was a bay style hunting? But in some of the training videos, it looks like the Hokkas are quite willing to try and engage with the bears too. How does it work with old style bear hunting with NKs? I wonder if way back when the Akitas were used, were they supposed to do a variety of catch and bay? Though it seems safer for the dog to only bay a bear.
if training is needed, where can i do that?
also, a bit OT but how do shikoku and kai hunt? would they tree bears and big cats?
PS - no training was involved. Both went in on instinct, but both learned very quickly were to bite the prey to avoid the prey biting them back! Once a ground hog bit my male (only shikoku I had at the time) on the arm, hard, and that just made Kuma super bad and he screamed and went in and killed the ground hog immediately. I had someone tell my that their lab and rottweiler gave up hunting ground hogs after they got bitten by one, but not my shikoku.
maybe i should let him try and go after rabbits. at least he will chase a deer though but who knows what he would do if he could ever get his mouth on one.
The most important step is shooting the animal for the dog. Once the dog figures out you shoot it for them... the rest is just error and trial for the dog on his/her own.
@souggy Interesting, they actually start relying on the hunter to kill the animal?
@brada1878 @poeticdragon This is also offtopic, but do you know if JA's are still used in any sort of hunting?
Also, when a puppy is young, they are only bold enough to take on smaller animals. So, when Pavel came to me, he was only bold enough to take on domestic cats, squirrels and chipmunks. His attention span was only about 15-30 seconds and he ignored bigger animals. As he matured, he became more confident enough to try and chase deer and moose. He also barked longer than at first. Whether or not you decide to take the animal he pursue will be reinforcing the behaviour. The more you focus on other animals, the more the prey drive is redirected. So, eventually the dog learns to ignore certain animals and go after desirable ones.
Right now I am in the process of deer-breaking.
DO NOT LET YOUR DOG CHASE DEER IN THE SNOW.
It is a hard habit to break when the dog learns it can potentially catch a deer in the deep snow. Usually the dog can't catch the deer in spring or fall, but when winter comes-- once the dog learns it can catch the deer, it's difficult to break without using aversive methods like e-collar.
That was the biggest mistake I have made: letting him almost catch a doe who was laying down in the snow.
For example, although bear-hunting is allowed in 28 states; only 20 of them allows dogs to be used in a bear-hunt. Or in the case of deer: Ontario is the only province in Canada which allows dogs to be used in a deer-hunt; Quebec, I am not so sure about. In the United States, there are only 10-14 states (regulations change all the time) which allows dogs to be used in a deer-hunt and they tend to be former Confederate states.
(one of the coolest things I remember from a natural history class in Alaska years ago was when a falconer came to class. He had a white phase gyrfalcon, like the most gorgeous bird of prey ever. He told us about getting his permit to capture a hatchling, and how he did it--and my god, that was a story!--and then we say the bird and it was just amazing!)
And a note about dogs and rodents: my vet said she sees a lot of injuries with dogs from gophers. Who would have thought? but gophers do have very large sharp teeth, and dogs apparently often get bit in the nose, muzzle or lips. Often from sticking their noses in gopher holes. We used to have some but Bel (shiba) killed them all, luckily with no injury to herself).
@poeticdragon Good to know. I'm guessing that line has pretty much died out even if one was to try to acquire one?
@shibamistress Maybe
I'm networking to find a sponsor while studying to take the apprentice test. I have orientation tomorrow and will have my schedule (full time until summer semester starts). So I'm going to call Florida Fish & Wildlife on Monday to reserve a spot on the next testing day that coincides with a day off or far enough away that I can get the day off.
That's so freaking cool that you go to see a white morph Gyr up close! They look so fierce and majestic, the Rolls Royce of falcons. My goal is to reach General status (2 years after issuance of Apprentice license), then trap a Harris Hawk and a Gyr or Peregrine. Harris are beautiful and the most social of hawks, and the dog fighting of Gyrs and the high altitude dives of Peregrines are amazing. I plan on training Ren to flush small game.
NOT FOR THE FAINT OF HEART
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sag4d60Z3Z0
From this Swedish documentary (dubbed in Russian) [5:44 to 10:20], you can see how the dog is rewarded for his behaviour-- he is allowed to play with the bird, he gets the feet of the birds, the gizzards and so on.
as for the deer ill just let him track it for me after the shot. he did a great job last january during bow season and he loves the downed game. he didnt want to let go of it!
Everything else is fair-game: small-game, predators, ducks, pests. Whatever.