@Sangmort Mal's are pretty gorgeous but wow, yeah, I completely agree with that statement. Well, except for the "might have one" as they're definitely too much dog in personality and size for me. The one I've had more interaction with was from a family that completely ruined her. It was painful to be around that poor dog but a mistreated dog does give you a good idea of the... problems they have that normal families won't accept.
I completely understand the uphill mentality. It took a year before I trusted Moko enough with the cats, a year of constant CC with an extremely food driven dog. And she still doesn't feel completely okay with them. She has decided that ALL DOGS must die and it's only become worse since she went blind and no amount of training is helping. It's mostly management at this point. Fortunately, as a blind dog she can't go far off leash And trying to get her to go somewhere when she doesn't want to? Pffft, more like dragging her around by her harness because she's not goin' nowhere.
I really hope so! I'm researching as much as I did before I rescued the parrot (which meant I knew he wasn't the bird for me but he needed rescuing...) I *cross fingers* have many years to go with Moko so hopefully I won't need to seriously look into one for a while.
Have you thought about herding breeds? Many have pretty high prey drives, but get along with other animals they see as 'theirs', don't wander too far, and are good watchdogs. Australian Cattle Dogs (aka 'heelers') are medium sized, good with animals as long as you can socialize socialize socialize, have good gumption and are quite hardy, and good watchdogs. There are usually quite a lot of them in rescues and shelters because of their really high activity level and need for a job - so that might not be what you're looking for. Just a thought, though.
I have looked into herders and they may be in the running if I can find some that aren't so 'drivey'. Some of the general farmdogs are also being looked at. Actually, every time I do the dog quizzes the Aussie Cattle Dog comes up every time! I'm not certain I can provide the work they need, though. But I am going to see what I can find.
So one breed I keep thinking of while I follow along is the Beauceron. I have a friend who lives in a trailer with 3 of them, plus 2 birds. They are kinda 1-person dogs, and reserved around others. Historically a herder or LGD, they are pretty versatile and athletic, including protection work. Independent for sure, so finding a quality breeder and early training/socialization are important. If you haven't seen one in person, they look like longer haired dobermans (but also come in harlequin) with double dewclawed feet.
There's a couple videos on youtube with cats that are adorable
I have an uncle who had a Beagle for years. Stony was... not terribly clingy, though he was reasonably affectionate and liked people. He was fine with other animals, though he had to be taught not to trail them everywhere. Typically they're a breed you'll be warned about as being unreliable off leash, but he tended to be fairly sticky to him and didn't run off. He was a great little dog for my uncle, who also seemed to prefer a "semi-nomadic" lifestyle (though he went from apartment to apartment rather than in a camper). There are some health problems in some Beagle lines, but he was lucky with Stony and he lived a long time without any major issues. I like Beagles, and to me, they're probably a size I'd prefer in that kind of situation.
My first dog would have done very well in the situation you describe, but I'm not sure that there are terribly many Finnish Lapphunds in North America not being bred for extremely heavy coats, etc. right now. Still, if you don't mind a longer coat (they don't require special grooming, though--especially if you happen to get one with a shorter coat for the breed. My dog really only needed to brushed out a few times while blowing coat, even if I was hiking with her, and I bathed her once per year on principle--but some bred for show coats might need more, though it still shouldn't be more than general brushing), it might be worth trying to see if you can find some you like. There's still a lot of variation in the breed--mine was very attached to me but still thought for herself and didn't cling, active outdoors and loved adventures but perfectly calm in the house (and not velco--she, and most of the Lappies I've known, would pick a spot to lay that she could watch me--but didn't follow me from place to place unless I had food or was actually interacting with her). Good with the cat, good watchdog (though they do have to be discouraged from nuisance barking, and because several of the major US breeders regularly debark... there's little selection against that) but liked people who weren't being weirdoes, but a desire to hunt animals outside the home. I know of at least one that was trained as a bird dog after the decision was made not to breed him, though they are technically herding dogs (they're actually multi-purpose dogs, shorthanded to being herding dogs). Very trainable, but also solve problems on their own and like thinking for themselves. Not terribly high drive--comfortable to live with, but not lazy either. Most of them don't tolerate extreme heat well, but should do perfectly fine in most of Canada year-round and enjoy colder weather. Typically 30-45lbs, though many females are a little smaller and some males a bit bigger. Generally extremely healthy, usually pretty long-lived and healthy into old age. There is a breed that was originally a short-coated variety (Lapponian Herder), but I've only heard rumors of a handful in North America and have never met one (they're much less rare in Finland).
As always, it would be a matter of finding a breeder you like and whom you trust to be able to pick out a pup that is what you actually want.
We had a Cattle Dog for a week when I was a little kid. Definitely more dog than the breed descriptions suggest, but she was cool. Just way too much dog for what my family wanted, and hadn't been socialized with cats--which was a problem, and the fact that she kept going after the cat was the biggest reason my parents decided they couldn't deal with her and ended up returning her to her breeder. Still, I'd definitely consider them if you can find a breeder that has what you want!
@zandrame Ooooh, another general purpose farm dog! And they have my favourite black and tan colouring! I'll look them up and do some digging around.
Those videos are absolutely adorable *melt* I'm squeezing my cat because the cute made me squee
@Trczina It sounds like your uncle got the perfect dog for him. I'm glad to see some beagle-experience show up I'm surprised how little there is on them considering they're a popular breed.
Ooh, I did get a suggestion for Icelandic Sheepdog that I vetoed as too clingy but it led me to the beautiful spitz herders! It's awesome you have experience, not many people know about them in North America. That's horrible that breeders would debark. It doesn't usually make them bark less OR less annoying (sometimes it makes them more annoying). Currently, the Norwegian Buhund and Finnish Lapphund are on the list. Do you have any experience with the Swedish Lapphund and Vallhund? I put them on tentatively but again, it's difficult to find information on them.
I'm looking up breeders and e-mailing with questions now! Mostly about the breeds but if I like the answers hopefully progressing to their practices. Researching breeds is almost more fun than getting the dog itself >.<
I'm currently teetering away from the herders and more towards the general purpose dogs. The English Shepherd has a 'loose eye' and is more relaxed than the intensity of a one job dog. Actually, I'm finding the farm dogs and hounds seem to be fitting the requirements more or less. Which means I'm narrowing it down!
My friend has an English Shepherd- she's a nice dog, versatile, smart, all-weather and socially sound. She's not terribly barky, or clingy, and enjoys being useful- Pam is a soccer coach and Paxton shags errant balls at practice and brings them back in.
For a dog I need: - Independence - Gets along with other animals - Low grooming needs - Don't want drooling - Watchdog
It's not really set in stone. I love my Shiba's independence and her decision to fix her own problems. Sure, it can get kind of annoying but she's just like my cats that way. I do need a dog I can groom on my own as finding a good groomer across Canada may be tough. Staying in the middle of nowhere I would like a dog that lets me know what's going on, preferably one that has enough gumption to keep the intruder at bay while I grab my gun. I'm okay with prey drive and can work around it but there has to be a willingness to be trained out of barrier frustration and cat chasing, etc. I have no problems learning how to hunt with a dog (instead of walking the dog, seeing an animal, shooting said animal).
As for me; I'm not a couch potato but I have Up Time and Down Time. I can hike, go for a walk, do some hunting and then sit back and do chores, internet, and reading. I'm not a big trick trainer and usually train stuff that makes sense to me (cats to come when called, sit for dog, cats learn their name, cats learn to sit and watch me cook instead of stealing things, dog begs by politely sitting, dog is interrupted from obsessive sniffing by "come on" etc). I'm not particularly social and am very picky with who I make friends with.
Thanks for the mention @WrylyBrindle! I only scanned this thread so forgive me if I missed stuff but I'll try to quickly add some buhund-specifics before I get to work...
Independence: Not sure what you mean exactly, some examples would be good. I would describe my dog Lobo as being very attached but also pretty confident. He definitely likes to keep me in sight in the woods, and I fostered some extra "stickiness" by bonding with him a lot as a pup so he'd never be the kind of dog who ran away from me in the forest.
Gets along with other animals: I got Lobo at 9 weeks when I had 4 cats and he gets along with them well. New cats are another story. He does try to herd them a lot, so upstairs in my house is a no-dog zone so the cats can chill (they don't go outside). He does get into a scuffle with one of the once in a while but I think those situations would've been easily preventable.
Low grooming needs - YES. I love this. I brush Lobo a few times a week, he does shed, he actually hasn't really blown his coat ever, not like the pictures I see, just increased shedding here and there (2 years old now, intact). I have only clipped his nails twice! They stay so short. He doesn't smell, unless he's wet. I've probably bathed him like 5 times. NO DROOLING. He's a kisser though.
Watchdog - Another big YES. Maybe too much? My particular pup is very anxious though and I think that's from his breeding, plus some trauma when he was a young pup. You have to watch for anxiety with buhunds, definitely spend time with the parents! I made that mistake. Spending a lot of time working with Lobo through his nervousness and stranger danger. But he would be a PERFECT country/cabin in the woods dog the way he is now, actually. He never bites or snaps, when he sees someone as a threat he circles and barks, like he's trying to hold them in place.
In terms of barking, I think Lobo barks just enough. He barks when something is a threat and stops when it's not. I just need to work with him on figuring out what is a threat There was an icelandic sheepdog in a training class I went to who was more of a yapper, just its instinct was to yap yap yap whenever anything caught its attention. That would drive me nuts. On top of that, Lobo has a nice, deep, purposeful bark. Some buhunds have more of a yappy bark.
@Trczina It sounds like your uncle got the perfect dog for him. I'm glad to see some beagle-experience show up I'm surprised how little there is on them considering they're a popular breed.
Ooh, I did get a suggestion for Icelandic Sheepdog that I vetoed as too clingy but it led me to the beautiful spitz herders! It's awesome you have experience, not many people know about them in North America. That's horrible that breeders would debark. It doesn't usually make them bark less OR less annoying (sometimes it makes them more annoying). Currently, the Norwegian Buhund and Finnish Lapphund are on the list. Do you have any experience with the Swedish Lapphund and Vallhund? I put them on tentatively but again, it's difficult to find information on them.
I tend to think the debarked ones just sound like they're hoarse. Not less annoying, perhaps slightly less piercing, but just... something that seems like a sad thing to do. Especially in lieu of actually training them.
I believe there is a user on the forum who has (has had?) a Vallhund... @souggy , maybe? I've met a few, but have never actually worked with one or known one well. My understanding is that they are more determinedly herding dogs than some of the other breeds, and the short legs do come with their own considerations (though most are leggier than, say, a show-line Corgi).
To my knowledge, there are very few Swedish Lapphunds in North America. Generally, they're a bit smaller than Finnish Lapphunds (though I don't think the size difference is huge), and I think there are (relatively minor) temperament differences. Their background is pretty similar to the Finnish Lapphund, but there are more restrictions on color and, as far as I can tell, a much smaller breeding pool even in Europe. I've also never heard of there being a pseudo-working line like in Finnish Lapphunds
(The paimensukuinen or "herding line" dogs are not necessarily used for more working than the "show line" dogs, and there are varying degrees of herding aptitude in both lines, but ps dogs are found in the tiny handful of colors discouraged by show breeders, and they tend to have less hair and a build more like the short-coated Lapponian Herder--they're supposed to represent an earlier and less refined type of Finnish Lapphund. As far as I know, there are no breeders in North America who breed strictly paimensukuinen line dogs, though there are paimensukuinen line dogs in the US and possibly also in Canada that have been used for breeding. I do really like the few that have been imported that I've met. We used to think that there was no PRA in the paimensukuinen lines, which was for a long time the main reason show breeders would use them in their programs, but learned that wasn't true about a decade ago. Still, it's pretty rare in both lines and easily avoidable now that there is a genetic test for it).
My parents have a 15 year old mini Beagle, Molly, who I grew up with for a good portion of my childhood/most of her life. Overall her recall is fine but if she gets near the front door, she will BOLT out the door. Now she's trained to stay out of the living room. However, recall was never really a priority for a family dog who lives in the middle of cow town so it probably has to do with improper training!
Also another note, her physical grooming needs are low, just some regular brushing to keep the coat shiny and obviously baths, but she seriously sheds like CRAZY. It's insane how much hair she leaves behind. Certain times of the year are worse than others but I'd categorize her shedding to be all-year long. And since she's a tri-colored Beagle no matter what clothes you wear, one of those colors is going to show up on your pants, shirts, floors, etc. If you don't mind shedding, then it may not be as big of an issue as it is for my clean-freak mom.
She's also good about letting us know when someone comes to the house. In her old age, her hearing isn't quite as great as it once was, but while she was in her prime, she could hear a car park out front and give us alert barks (and trained to stop when told).
She also has about zero prey drive. We have psycho bluejays that live in the trees in the backyard that have made it a habit to dive-bomb her while she's hanging out, and has not once decided to retaliate. Shows no interest in the cats that walk along the fences (compared to our AA who would snatch them up). Her main thing is food. Obviously if that Beagle nose picks up a scent whether that's in the kitchen, backyard, bedrooms, office, then she won't stop.
Have you interacted with her English Shepherd a lot? Other than farms I haven't got much information about them either. I do love that they are bred only for performance!
I consider independence a dog that doesn't need to be in your lap, on you, or near as possible to you at all times. An independent dog is content with being able to see you, has the ability to work things out on their own and will only look towards people as a last resort. I don't mind being attached, I just don't like a hip-dog. And dogs that try to figure things out for a few seconds and immediately give up, looking towards the human for guidance.
Does Lobo show any prey drive towards outside birds or rodents? If so, how intense? Easily trained out of or something you would find difficult to correct?
One of my cats is kind of an a**hole and doesn't get along with my dog. That's the only tussle she gets into nowadays. She's taken to snuggling on me with the nice cat (which nice cat isn't sure about) which is a HUUUUUGE step.
So would you say that anxiety is of the herding dog type or just the breed? Have you met other Buhunds and seen similar issues? Where did you get Lobo from? Is there any clubs you can point me to? I found a breeder but I'm leery without some positives from official clubs or other owners. How would you say is Lobo's energy level?
@Trzcina I actually think the raspy, squeaky debark bark is more annoying than any real bark. I do have issues with the higher pitched noises (can't STAND lovebirds yet don't mind Sun Conures).
Hm, a small gene pool has it's own problems. I'm not too keen on shipping from other countries. If I find someone I like I'll consider it but prefer not to.
Excellent, some words I can plug into Google. I'll look up some pictures and information on the different types. I'm not particularly fond of show dogs that are less focused on performance. A nice balance is ideal if I can find one.
@sukiandluna I have two cats that love to bolt so not something I'm a stranger to. That does sound like a training issue, plus I never open the door with a dog sitting in front! Or cat! Asking for disaster!
I have a black, long-haired cat and a grey tabby short-haired plus a red Shiba. NOTHING I wear doesn't have a decoration of hair somewhere. I'm no neat freak, either.
She sounds like an awesome dog! And that's a super age. How did you consider her clingyness? Did she insist on being close to people? Or was she content to be in the same room? Did she show ingenuity when wanting something? Or did she look towards people and whine for it?
I consider independence a dog that doesn't need to be in your lap, on you, or near as possible to you at all times. An independent dog is content with being able to see you, has the ability to work things out on their own and will only look towards people as a last resort. I don't mind being attached, I just don't like a hip-dog. And dogs that try to figure things out for a few seconds and immediately give up, looking towards the human for guidance.
Lobo is definitely independent in that regard, then! He generally likes to be near me, like in the same room, but not on top of me. He will greet enthusiastically when I get home, but once the cuddle time is over, he's content to go sit down on the floor and chill. One thing I love about Lobo is that at night, he stays downstairs by himself. If the gate is loose, he'll come upstairs to visit (and when I say visit, I mean eat the cat food) but he doesn't whine or cry, unless he has explosive diarrhea (he is so good about insisting on waking us up if that's the case). He also doesn't have any kind of separation anxiety at home, though he will get very upset if he can't be near me when we're both outside the house.
As far as working things out on his own, it really depends on the task
Does Lobo show any prey drive towards outside birds or rodents? If so, how intense? Easily trained out of or something you would find difficult to correct?
Yes, toward rodents (like rabbits), no toward birds (other than barking at ducks). Based on talking to other buhund owners, this varies a LOT individually. Lobo will chase a rabbit but not into a blackberry bush. Once it's in there he'll let it go and continue walking with me. One time we did see a deer on a hiking trail while he was off leash; he chased it, came back when called, chased it again, came back when called, and stuck around reluctantly. A hunting breed would've stayed on the deer, I think.
So would you say that anxiety is of the herding dog type or just the breed? Have you met other Buhunds and seen similar issues? Where did you get Lobo from? Is there any clubs you can point me to? I found a breeder but I'm leery without some positives from official clubs or other owners. How would you say is Lobo's energy level?
I think herding dogs are more prone to anxiety in general, just because the intense desire to control is bred into them, but I also know for a fact that Lobo's littermates have had a lot of anxiety issues and that his mom dog (dam? is that what it's called?) was de-barked and seemed pretty nervous when I met her (I did not have good puppy evaluation skills). On top of that, Lobo had a medical emergency that involved a lot of traumatic vet visits during his socialization period, and I don't think I socialized him as much as I could. I've met one other buhund (not easy to come by!) and she seemed pretty calm, but aloof (but Lobo is generally aloof to people he doesn't consider part of his inner circle too). If I had to do it again, I would pay closer attention to the temperament of the parents, and I would do more socialization, much more. About the breeder, feel free to send me a private message and I'd be happy to share opinions, I just don't like publishing them (unless the breeder was horrible, which this one totally wasn't).
I read somewhere buhunds were bred so they could be sent into the mountains for a few days at a time, on their own, to gather and herd the sheep back to the farm. I think that comes with its own brand of independent problem-solving. I can't speak to Lobo's solitary mountain adventures, but I can say that he certainly enforces house rules when I'm not around, harassing the cats if they choose to scratch the carpet or try to tear open the screen door :P
@barkingpup She's really a great dog. Can be stubborn but not like a Shiba I wouldn't consider her a very clingy dog. On a scale of 1-10, I'd rate the clinginess at about a 3-4. Overall she will hang out, usually in the same room/general vicinity but not all up in your business (her Schnoodle sister is the one that wants to be a lap dog). Will often venture into some trouble somewhere else. The only time she might be annoying is in the kitchen. She's trained to stay out when someone is cooking something, but might try to sneak in on occasion. Though, I don't blame her. Both of my parents are good cooks. Lol.
You might be interested in a Thai Ridgeback Dog. Not a breed I would recommend to just anyone, but having a Shiba is good prep since their personality is similar. Thais range from (on average) 40-60 pounds so they're not a large dog, but have some substance. In Thailand, they were used for multiple purposes including hunting and guarding, though are commonly kept as pets today. While they are very athletic, they tend to lounge most of the day and have bursts of energy (provided they are given proper mental and physical exercise. Any bored dog can be spaz). Grooming is easy and shedding is low. My TRD practically does not shed when COMPARED to my Boxer! She shed all of the time (and I DID groom her regularly and thoroughly)! While they bond closely with their people, TRDs are not clingy.
I walk, bike and hike with my TRD. He LOVES nature! Depending on where we are (e.g. private land), I am able to have him off leash. Most Thais are pretty trustworthy to stay nearby and come when called, though I wouldn't have him off leash in town due to the obvious liabilities (e.g. killing a neighbor's cat, fighting with other dogs, getting hit by a car). Thais generally do well with their own families, including other animals they have been raised with, but are not big fans of strangers (animals or people). My male TRD is better with submissive female dogs (that he doesn't know) and shorter people who are quiet (he doesn't really like big, loud men). I know of a few TRDs that are show dogs (in conformation and sports) and do well in that environment. Thais are adaptable, but require socialization and understanding--they are NOT labs! LOL
If you were interested in a TRD, I highly recommend getting a puppy to raise with your other animals. I know of TRD owners in Canada. Even though the TRD is from a tropical climate, as long as it has a jacket when it gets cold, it should be fine. Their coat will grow a bit longer (for a TRD) in cold weather. Lounging in a cramper, excuse me, I mean camper, shouldn't be an issue for a TRD as long as they get a long walk or a run in at least once a day.
If you have any questions, feel free to contact me. I also know of good breeders in the US, including my breeder who has strong connections in Thailand. You can also find info on trdusa.org/forums Good luck with your dog search!
@barkingpup I agree with Chrys English shepherd. I have a friend that breeds them and our families go back forever. I've met and played and grown up with all of her breeding dogs and they are good dogs. They do have, kinda, two strains. The general all purpose dog who knows when dto chill who knows when to work and then (usually out of southern and western breeders but not always) the hard working herder/almost guardian dog. I would do more research on them, Ohio had or had an active association that was good. I really like this breed for farm dogs
@LoboSpam I sent a request to the group. Haven't been approved yet, just waiting. I'll send a PM.
I, too, think anxiety is more prevalent in the herding breeds. I read about Lobo's horrific vet visit! What a terrible experience Thanks for all the info, The breed list is getting smaller. Can you send Lobo over here to discipline my monster brat-cats?
@sukiandluna Thank you for the info! I think Beagle's are going to stay on the list for now. I'm gearing up to see what breeds I can find in my neck of the woods.
@TRDmom Oooh, I love primitives! The Thai has such an expressive face. Would you say they would do fine with the more prey-inducing animals such as rodents and birds when raised together? Most of the Primitives have the high prey drive that made me wary to consider them no matter how much I love them.
Oh my, a reason to buy dog clothes?! I'll check out the forums for sure. May end up PMing you depending on if I like what I see
@cdenney Hm, I didn't know they had two strains (kinda). Are there any resources you would suggest?
TRDs probably could tolerate pet rodents and birds. A pup would be curious, but I believe it could be raised to leave them alone if you discourage interest from a young age. An adult would be more risky in my opinion because they may not have been socialized with small animals and may be hard(er) to curb an unhealthy interest. Caging the smaller animals (and dog too) while you're not present should keep everyone safe. While I certainly can't guarantee that they would not harm your pets, TRDs usually do OK with what they have been raised with.
My daughter talked me into getting a cat this year. Our TRD was almost 2 years at the time and viewed the neighborhood cats with the same interest as squirrels and other prey animals, which was concerning, but I felt could be manageable. Pa Gaw had not seen a cat up close before -- let alone a 2 pound kitten who had the audacity to hiss at him -- but I took him to where the cat was upstairs while on leash and with plenty of tasty treats. Since I made him lay down so he wouldn't intimate the cat so much, he thought he needed to lay down when he saw the cat. The cat quickly turned the dog into a toy. Pa Gaw put up with it. *shock* haha we ended up rehoming the cat after a couple of months because of various reasons stemming from him "finger painting" his poop in the house everyday if the cat had stayed, I believe they could have coexisted, though probably more so after the kitten mellowed out some as an adult.
BTW, my TRD still has a less than noble interest in the loose *neighborhood* cats. "Uh uh" and treats go a long way with training my boy. No need for harsh corrections. If we're on a walk and he sees a squirrel or something, he's like "I want it, I waaant it!" If I say uh uh, ignore, or leave it, he is like "awwww, mom!"
Years ago I had sugar gliders so I'm familiar with small pets (though they had a cage big enough for me to get in!). If I wanted to have caged animals again, I wouldn't consider my TRD a problem since they would be caged and I could cage him if I wanted them out.
I hope these examples help you see the breed clearer. Thais are in tune to their people, and if you don't like a behavior they will try to accommodate your wishes (provided you take the time to communicate those wishes through training).
I'm on my phone and editing is getting a little frustrating. So, if you have ANY questions about the breed or what I wrote, feel free to ask!
Comments
I completely understand the uphill mentality. It took a year before I trusted Moko enough with the cats, a year of constant CC with an extremely food driven dog. And she still doesn't feel completely okay with them. She has decided that ALL DOGS must die and it's only become worse since she went blind and no amount of training is helping. It's mostly management at this point. Fortunately, as a blind dog she can't go far off leash
I really hope so! I'm researching as much as I did before I rescued the parrot (which meant I knew he wasn't the bird for me but he needed rescuing...) I *cross fingers* have many years to go with Moko so hopefully I won't need to seriously look into one for a while.
There's a couple videos on youtube with cats that are adorable
My first dog would have done very well in the situation you describe, but I'm not sure that there are terribly many Finnish Lapphunds in North America not being bred for extremely heavy coats, etc. right now. Still, if you don't mind a longer coat (they don't require special grooming, though--especially if you happen to get one with a shorter coat for the breed. My dog really only needed to brushed out a few times while blowing coat, even if I was hiking with her, and I bathed her once per year on principle--but some bred for show coats might need more, though it still shouldn't be more than general brushing), it might be worth trying to see if you can find some you like. There's still a lot of variation in the breed--mine was very attached to me but still thought for herself and didn't cling, active outdoors and loved adventures but perfectly calm in the house (and not velco--she, and most of the Lappies I've known, would pick a spot to lay that she could watch me--but didn't follow me from place to place unless I had food or was actually interacting with her). Good with the cat, good watchdog (though they do have to be discouraged from nuisance barking, and because several of the major US breeders regularly debark... there's little selection against that) but liked people who weren't being weirdoes, but a desire to hunt animals outside the home. I know of at least one that was trained as a bird dog after the decision was made not to breed him, though they are technically herding dogs (they're actually multi-purpose dogs, shorthanded to being herding dogs). Very trainable, but also solve problems on their own and like thinking for themselves. Not terribly high drive--comfortable to live with, but not lazy either. Most of them don't tolerate extreme heat well, but should do perfectly fine in most of Canada year-round and enjoy colder weather. Typically 30-45lbs, though many females are a little smaller and some males a bit bigger. Generally extremely healthy, usually pretty long-lived and healthy into old age. There is a breed that was originally a short-coated variety (Lapponian Herder), but I've only heard rumors of a handful in North America and have never met one (they're much less rare in Finland).
As always, it would be a matter of finding a breeder you like and whom you trust to be able to pick out a pup that is what you actually want.
We had a Cattle Dog for a week when I was a little kid. Definitely more dog than the breed descriptions suggest, but she was cool. Just way too much dog for what my family wanted, and hadn't been socialized with cats--which was a problem, and the fact that she kept going after the cat was the biggest reason my parents decided they couldn't deal with her and ended up returning her to her breeder. Still, I'd definitely consider them if you can find a breeder that has what you want!
Those videos are absolutely adorable *melt* I'm squeezing my cat because the cute made me squee
@Trczina It sounds like your uncle got the perfect dog for him. I'm glad to see some beagle-experience show up
Ooh, I did get a suggestion for Icelandic Sheepdog that I vetoed as too clingy but it led me to the beautiful spitz herders! It's awesome you have experience, not many people know about them in North America. That's horrible that breeders would debark. It doesn't usually make them bark less OR less annoying (sometimes it makes them more annoying). Currently, the Norwegian Buhund and Finnish Lapphund are on the list. Do you have any experience with the Swedish Lapphund and Vallhund? I put them on tentatively but again, it's difficult to find information on them.
I'm looking up breeders and e-mailing with questions now! Mostly about the breeds but if I like the answers hopefully progressing to their practices. Researching breeds is almost more fun than getting the dog itself >.<
I'm currently teetering away from the herders and more towards the general purpose dogs. The English Shepherd has a 'loose eye' and is more relaxed than the intensity of a one job dog. Actually, I'm finding the farm dogs and hounds seem to be fitting the requirements more or less. Which means I'm narrowing it down!
My friend has an English Shepherd- she's a nice dog, versatile, smart, all-weather and socially sound. She's not terribly barky, or clingy, and enjoys being useful- Pam is a soccer coach and Paxton shags errant balls at practice and brings them back in.
Independence: Not sure what you mean exactly, some examples would be good. I would describe my dog Lobo as being very attached but also pretty confident. He definitely likes to keep me in sight in the woods, and I fostered some extra "stickiness" by bonding with him a lot as a pup so he'd never be the kind of dog who ran away from me in the forest.
Gets along with other animals: I got Lobo at 9 weeks when I had 4 cats and he gets along with them well. New cats are another story. He does try to herd them a lot, so upstairs in my house is a no-dog zone so the cats can chill (they don't go outside). He does get into a scuffle with one of the once in a while but I think those situations would've been easily preventable.
Low grooming needs - YES. I love this. I brush Lobo a few times a week, he does shed, he actually hasn't really blown his coat ever, not like the pictures I see, just increased shedding here and there (2 years old now, intact). I have only clipped his nails twice! They stay so short. He doesn't smell, unless he's wet. I've probably bathed him like 5 times. NO DROOLING. He's a kisser though.
Watchdog - Another big YES. Maybe too much? My particular pup is very anxious though and I think that's from his breeding, plus some trauma when he was a young pup. You have to watch for anxiety with buhunds, definitely spend time with the parents! I made that mistake. Spending a lot of time working with Lobo through his nervousness and stranger danger. But he would be a PERFECT country/cabin in the woods dog the way he is now, actually. He never bites or snaps, when he sees someone as a threat he circles and barks, like he's trying to hold them in place.
In terms of barking, I think Lobo barks just enough. He barks when something is a threat and stops when it's not. I just need to work with him on figuring out what is a threat
If you have any questions, let me know!
I believe there is a user on the forum who has (has had?) a Vallhund... @souggy , maybe? I've met a few, but have never actually worked with one or known one well. My understanding is that they are more determinedly herding dogs than some of the other breeds, and the short legs do come with their own considerations (though most are leggier than, say, a show-line Corgi).
To my knowledge, there are very few Swedish Lapphunds in North America. Generally, they're a bit smaller than Finnish Lapphunds (though I don't think the size difference is huge), and I think there are (relatively minor) temperament differences. Their background is pretty similar to the Finnish Lapphund, but there are more restrictions on color and, as far as I can tell, a much smaller breeding pool even in Europe. I've also never heard of there being a pseudo-working line like in Finnish Lapphunds
(The paimensukuinen or "herding line" dogs are not necessarily used for more working than the "show line" dogs, and there are varying degrees of herding aptitude in both lines, but ps dogs are found in the tiny handful of colors discouraged by show breeders, and they tend to have less hair and a build more like the short-coated Lapponian Herder--they're supposed to represent an earlier and less refined type of Finnish Lapphund. As far as I know, there are no breeders in North America who breed strictly paimensukuinen line dogs, though there are paimensukuinen line dogs in the US and possibly also in Canada that have been used for breeding. I do really like the few that have been imported that I've met. We used to think that there was no PRA in the paimensukuinen lines, which was for a long time the main reason show breeders would use them in their programs, but learned that wasn't true about a decade ago. Still, it's pretty rare in both lines and easily avoidable now that there is a genetic test for it).
Also another note, her physical grooming needs are low, just some regular brushing to keep the coat shiny and obviously baths, but she seriously sheds like CRAZY. It's insane how much hair she leaves behind. Certain times of the year are worse than others but I'd categorize her shedding to be all-year long. And since she's a tri-colored Beagle no matter what clothes you wear, one of those colors is going to show up on your pants, shirts, floors, etc. If you don't mind shedding, then it may not be as big of an issue as it is for my clean-freak mom.
She's also good about letting us know when someone comes to the house. In her old age, her hearing isn't quite as great as it once was, but while she was in her prime, she could hear a car park out front and give us alert barks (and trained to stop when told).
She also has about zero prey drive. We have psycho bluejays that live in the trees in the backyard that have made it a habit to dive-bomb her while she's hanging out, and has not once decided to retaliate. Shows no interest in the cats that walk along the fences (compared to our AA who would snatch them up). Her main thing is food. Obviously if that Beagle nose picks up a scent whether that's in the kitchen, backyard, bedrooms, office, then she won't stop.
Have you interacted with her English Shepherd a lot? Other than farms I haven't got much information about them either. I do love that they are bred only for performance!
@LoboSpam Excellent!
I consider independence a dog that doesn't need to be in your lap, on you, or near as possible to you at all times. An independent dog is content with being able to see you, has the ability to work things out on their own and will only look towards people as a last resort. I don't mind being attached, I just don't like a hip-dog. And dogs that try to figure things out for a few seconds and immediately give up, looking towards the human for guidance.
Does Lobo show any prey drive towards outside birds or rodents? If so, how intense? Easily trained out of or something you would find difficult to correct?
One of my cats is kind of an a**hole and doesn't get along with my dog. That's the only tussle she gets into nowadays. She's taken to snuggling on me with the nice cat (which nice cat isn't sure about) which is a HUUUUUGE step.
So would you say that anxiety is of the herding dog type or just the breed? Have you met other Buhunds and seen similar issues? Where did you get Lobo from? Is there any clubs you can point me to? I found a breeder but I'm leery without some positives from official clubs or other owners. How would you say is Lobo's energy level?
@Trzcina I actually think the raspy, squeaky debark bark is more annoying than any real bark. I do have issues with the higher pitched noises (can't STAND lovebirds yet don't mind Sun Conures).
Hm, a small gene pool has it's own problems. I'm not too keen on shipping from other countries. If I find someone I like I'll consider it but prefer not to.
Excellent, some words I can plug into Google. I'll look up some pictures and information on the different types. I'm not particularly fond of show dogs that are less focused on performance. A nice balance is ideal if I can find one.
@sukiandluna I have two cats that love to bolt so not something I'm a stranger to. That does sound like a training issue, plus I never open the door with a dog sitting in front! Or cat! Asking for disaster!
I have a black, long-haired cat and a grey tabby short-haired plus a red Shiba. NOTHING I wear doesn't have a decoration of hair somewhere. I'm no neat freak, either.
She sounds like an awesome dog! And that's a super age. How did you consider her clingyness? Did she insist on being close to people? Or was she content to be in the same room? Did she show ingenuity when wanting something? Or did she look towards people and whine for it?
As far as working things out on his own, it really depends on the task
Yes, toward rodents (like rabbits), no toward birds (other than barking at ducks). Based on talking to other buhund owners, this varies a LOT individually. Lobo will chase a rabbit but not into a blackberry bush. Once it's in there he'll let it go and continue walking with me. One time we did see a deer on a hiking trail while he was off leash; he chased it, came back when called, chased it again, came back when called, and stuck around reluctantly. A hunting breed would've stayed on the deer, I think.
I think herding dogs are more prone to anxiety in general, just because the intense desire to control is bred into them, but I also know for a fact that Lobo's littermates have had a lot of anxiety issues and that his mom dog (dam? is that what it's called?) was de-barked and seemed pretty nervous when I met her (I did not have good puppy evaluation skills). On top of that, Lobo had a medical emergency that involved a lot of traumatic vet visits during his socialization period, and I don't think I socialized him as much as I could. I've met one other buhund (not easy to come by!) and she seemed pretty calm, but aloof (but Lobo is generally aloof to people he doesn't consider part of his inner circle too). If I had to do it again, I would pay closer attention to the temperament of the parents, and I would do more socialization, much more. About the breeder, feel free to send me a private message and I'd be happy to share opinions, I just don't like publishing them (unless the breeder was horrible, which this one totally wasn't).
If you have Facebook, I would suggest joining the "I love my Norwegian Buhund" group and asking questions! https://www.facebook.com/groups/2260980986/
I wouldn't consider her a very clingy dog. On a scale of 1-10, I'd rate the clinginess at about a 3-4. Overall she will hang out, usually in the same room/general vicinity but not all up in your business (her Schnoodle sister is the one that wants to be a lap dog). Will often venture into some trouble somewhere else. The only time she might be annoying is in the kitchen. She's trained to stay out when someone is cooking something, but might try to sneak in on occasion. Though, I don't blame her. Both of my parents are good cooks. Lol.
I walk, bike and hike with my TRD. He LOVES nature! Depending on where we are (e.g. private land), I am able to have him off leash. Most Thais are pretty trustworthy to stay nearby and come when called, though I wouldn't have him off leash in town due to the obvious liabilities (e.g. killing a neighbor's cat, fighting with other dogs, getting hit by a car). Thais generally do well with their own families, including other animals they have been raised with, but are not big fans of strangers (animals or people). My male TRD is better with submissive female dogs (that he doesn't know) and shorter people who are quiet (he doesn't really like big, loud men). I know of a few TRDs that are show dogs (in conformation and sports) and do well in that environment. Thais are adaptable, but require socialization and understanding--they are NOT labs! LOL
If you were interested in a TRD, I highly recommend getting a puppy to raise with your other animals. I know of TRD owners in Canada. Even though the TRD is from a tropical climate, as long as it has a jacket when it gets cold, it should be fine. Their coat will grow a bit longer (for a TRD) in cold weather. Lounging in a cramper, excuse me, I mean camper, shouldn't be an issue for a TRD as long as they get a long walk or a run in at least once a day.
If you have any questions, feel free to contact me. I also know of good breeders in the US, including my breeder who has strong connections in Thailand. You can also find info on trdusa.org/forums Good luck with your dog search!
I, too, think anxiety is more prevalent in the herding breeds. I read about Lobo's horrific vet visit! What a terrible experience
@sukiandluna Thank you for the info! I think Beagle's are going to stay on the list for now. I'm gearing up to see what breeds I can find in my neck of the woods.
@TRDmom Oooh, I love primitives! The Thai has such an expressive face. Would you say they would do fine with the more prey-inducing animals such as rodents and birds when raised together? Most of the Primitives have the high prey drive that made me wary to consider them no matter how much I love them.
Oh my, a reason to buy dog clothes?! I'll check out the forums for sure. May end up PMing you depending on if I like what I see
@cdenney Hm, I didn't know they had two strains (kinda). Are there any resources you would suggest?
My daughter talked me into getting a cat this year. Our TRD was almost 2 years at the time and viewed the neighborhood cats with the same interest as squirrels and other prey animals, which was concerning, but I felt could be manageable. Pa Gaw had not seen a cat up close before -- let alone a 2 pound kitten who had the audacity to hiss at him -- but I took him to where the cat was upstairs while on leash and with plenty of tasty treats. Since I made him lay down so he wouldn't intimate the cat so much, he thought he needed to lay down when he saw the cat. The cat quickly turned the dog into a toy. Pa Gaw put up with it. *shock* haha we ended up rehoming the cat after a couple of months because of various reasons stemming from him "finger painting" his poop in the house everyday
BTW, my TRD still has a less than noble interest in the loose *neighborhood* cats. "Uh uh" and treats go a long way with training my boy. No need for harsh corrections. If we're on a walk and he sees a squirrel or something, he's like "I want it, I waaant it!" If I say uh uh, ignore, or leave it, he is like "awwww, mom!"
Years ago I had sugar gliders so I'm familiar with small pets (though they had a cage big enough for me to get in!). If I wanted to have caged animals again, I wouldn't consider my TRD a problem since they would be caged and I could cage him if I wanted them out.
I hope these examples help you see the breed clearer. Thais are in tune to their people, and if you don't like a behavior they will try to accommodate your wishes (provided you take the time to communicate those wishes through training).
I'm on my phone and editing is getting a little frustrating. So, if you have ANY questions about the breed or what I wrote, feel free to ask!