New Shiba (to me) with aggression question
Hi,
I got a Shiba Inu 3 weeks ago named Mochi. She is 11 months old. I have owned dogs before and I did months worth of research on Shibas before I got one. Mochi is from a local breeder who was going to show her but then decided to focus on a male pup instead. I was told (and witnessed when I first met her) that Mochi had an absolutely wonderful temperament. In fact, such a good temperament that the breeder made me agree to Mochi having one litter of pups when she is two. AND Mochi is wonderful. She adores my two sons (10 and 12), they adore her, I adore her. She is beautiful, sweet, loving, smart. She travels wonderfully, no seperation anxiety when I leave for a few hours, completely trustworthy in my house alone.
One problem I don't know what to think of or exactly how to handle. She has gone into what I will call the "red zone" two times. I think of the red zone as when a dog becomes so upset that they will bite anything that comes near them. The first time was the second day I had her. My neighbor who I am very good friends with came into my house unannounced with her two Australian Shepherds bounding in after her. I happened to be on my front porch. According to my neighbor (I'll call her Nancy) Mochi immediately became very aggressive and pounced on the back of her female Aussie and bit her shoulder (didn't break skin but took fur). I heard the ruckus and came in to find Mochi snarling at everyone around her so I grabbed her by the scruff of the neck and held her tightly until she calmed down completely. Afterward I attributed this incident to new home, new people and a somewhat insensitive entry by Nancy and her dogs.
Then 3 weeks later (yesterday) I was out on a quiet street with Mochi on leash. A loose dog was wandering and I know the owner so I was going to attempt to catch it and return it. Nancy was with me. When we got near the stray (a very old dog) approached us. Mochi went into the red zone again. Again I grabbed her by the neck and she continued to writhe and try to turn and bite me, but I had a firm grip on her and she couldn't. In about thirty seconds she calmed and I was able to release her.
A couple of questions:
Nancy, my neighbor, thinks Mochi has behavioral problems and I should return her to the breeder. I was very upset about this. I love Mochi, I know Shiba's are different and can be "pains in the butt" as I read on this forum before getting her. I would not even consider giving up on Mochi for this behavior. I know the need to be the pack leader with Mochi and she accepts my position. Obviously the red zone is not good behavior and I know I need to work with her (I've made an appt with a dog behaviorist), but is this behavior way outside the norm for Shiba? Is it something I can "socialize" and "train" her out of? Do other Shiba's do this? Is Nancy right? She is such a fantastic dog in every other way. She is completely friendly with people in every circumstance.
Thank you so much for any of your comments.
Laura
BTW; I saw a thread on someone in No Cal that wanted to meet a Shiba. I live in south Bay area if anyone would like to meet Mochi (if you're not a strange loose dog she'll love you).
I got a Shiba Inu 3 weeks ago named Mochi. She is 11 months old. I have owned dogs before and I did months worth of research on Shibas before I got one. Mochi is from a local breeder who was going to show her but then decided to focus on a male pup instead. I was told (and witnessed when I first met her) that Mochi had an absolutely wonderful temperament. In fact, such a good temperament that the breeder made me agree to Mochi having one litter of pups when she is two. AND Mochi is wonderful. She adores my two sons (10 and 12), they adore her, I adore her. She is beautiful, sweet, loving, smart. She travels wonderfully, no seperation anxiety when I leave for a few hours, completely trustworthy in my house alone.
One problem I don't know what to think of or exactly how to handle. She has gone into what I will call the "red zone" two times. I think of the red zone as when a dog becomes so upset that they will bite anything that comes near them. The first time was the second day I had her. My neighbor who I am very good friends with came into my house unannounced with her two Australian Shepherds bounding in after her. I happened to be on my front porch. According to my neighbor (I'll call her Nancy) Mochi immediately became very aggressive and pounced on the back of her female Aussie and bit her shoulder (didn't break skin but took fur). I heard the ruckus and came in to find Mochi snarling at everyone around her so I grabbed her by the scruff of the neck and held her tightly until she calmed down completely. Afterward I attributed this incident to new home, new people and a somewhat insensitive entry by Nancy and her dogs.
Then 3 weeks later (yesterday) I was out on a quiet street with Mochi on leash. A loose dog was wandering and I know the owner so I was going to attempt to catch it and return it. Nancy was with me. When we got near the stray (a very old dog) approached us. Mochi went into the red zone again. Again I grabbed her by the neck and she continued to writhe and try to turn and bite me, but I had a firm grip on her and she couldn't. In about thirty seconds she calmed and I was able to release her.
A couple of questions:
Nancy, my neighbor, thinks Mochi has behavioral problems and I should return her to the breeder. I was very upset about this. I love Mochi, I know Shiba's are different and can be "pains in the butt" as I read on this forum before getting her. I would not even consider giving up on Mochi for this behavior. I know the need to be the pack leader with Mochi and she accepts my position. Obviously the red zone is not good behavior and I know I need to work with her (I've made an appt with a dog behaviorist), but is this behavior way outside the norm for Shiba? Is it something I can "socialize" and "train" her out of? Do other Shiba's do this? Is Nancy right? She is such a fantastic dog in every other way. She is completely friendly with people in every circumstance.
Thank you so much for any of your comments.
Laura
BTW; I saw a thread on someone in No Cal that wanted to meet a Shiba. I live in south Bay area if anyone would like to meet Mochi (if you're not a strange loose dog she'll love you).
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I would suggest some calm controlled (on lead w/full control) introductions. Then, after true trust between you and she is established (no less than a month), I might suggest a doggie day camp with experienced handlers, outside your presence. I know my 11-month old Shiba (who I've had since he was 4.5 months) acts differently when I am not around where toys are concerned, his possessiveness and his protective instinct. The last time I took him to camp (Tuesday) he jumped up on the MALE caretaker when we arrived and licked him. He was so excited to be there. Three months ago he wanted nothing to do with men having been around me most of his life. It was such a joy to witness that my little boy was becoming balanced, trusting, accepting of those around him that he should be. And, I'm always told when I take him "You've done such a wonderful job with him. All the other Shibas are shy..."
I also noticed at our last Shiba meetup, he was more accepting of those who wanted to pet him whereas other Shibas just ran away from those who tried to give affection. Shibas will never be their best friend, but at least they can be social.
Teenage and adult Shibas require a lot of patience and understanding and listening on our parts to become part of our family after they have been raised in a different environment and taught nothing different. If you are willing to do that there would be no reason to return such a spirited dog to the breeder. We can read tons, but until we experience and learn from that, we cannot learn and understand the needs of this breed.
In my opinion, from this read, Mochi is a typical Shiba and if left alone, as Tsuki puts it 'to their own antics', these actions will be your consequences. We, as true lovers of the breed, must step up and give them the guidance required to live in our society.
Hope this helps, and let us hear back.
Shibas are picky about the canines or newcomers that they will accept near them or what they will tolerate in their territory. I would not consider it “protection” of you, instead they are putting up a good offensive to keep the other dogs away from them.
Sometimes when dogs (not just Shibas) get worked up they loose control of their rational senses and lash out at the nearest object, particularly if they are being physically restrained by hand or a leash. Most likely with management techniques suggested by a professional you can expand your dog’s threshold for new people or pets or at least lower the outbursts when other animals are in the vicinity.
However, note it is really difficult to diagnose or know what specifically is triggering the outbursts and rather than speculate here on the list, your specific case should be evaluated directly by a professional. Sometimes what we think is causing the problem is actually not the issue, so rather than steering you wrong, get some help from a dog trainer or behaviorist so that you can see hands on how to work through it with Mochi. I think with some professional support things probably can be worked out, so don't give up.
Let us know how it goes....
Here are some links to check out....
http://www.trulydogfriendly.com/blog/?page_id=2
http://www.animalbehavior.org/ABSAppliedBehavior/caab-directory
Snf
I think you've gotten some good advice so far, but I have to disagree with Elaine, it doesn't sound like Mochi's outbursts are typical Shiba behavior. Many Shibas are reactive and will make a lot of noise when startled or they play with another dog, but getting to the point where a physical correction such as a scruff shake doesn't immediately snap them out of it is very intense and beyond typical Shiba reactivity.
Its tough to say without knowing more information, but off the top of my head it sounds like you might be dealing with an insecurity issue. How does she do with off leash dogs that aren't boisterous? How about boisterous dogs on leash? Have you noticed any other signs of anxiety or fearfulness in her?
I think you are absolutely doing the right thing by contacting a behaviorist. There are many subtle cues to understanding dog behavior that even best intentioned enthusiast (like ourselves) just won't pickup due to lack of experience. I hope your behaviorist can diagnose and treat you guys quickly!
Keep us informed.
How much did you socialize her as a puppy? Toby I had to take everywhere. As a pup, he took puppy class, and we visited the pet store a lot, I took him to friend's houses ( who owned dogs ), I took him out in public ... and I even let him go to the dog park once he was done all his vaccinations.
Since he doesn't have dogs with dominant personalities, but ones who shy away from people, he cannot specifcally respond to your question, other than referrring a specialist...???? when he doesn't see his own need for one for lack of his own socialization of them. I suppose it all depends on what is wanted/accepted by what an individual seeks in their animals.
As an owner with a dominant dog personality, and long-term dog owner, I speak from experience and refer back to my answer and hope you will read it, delve into its contents and perhaps give it some consideration. At 11 months, we can easily control and determine our dog's personality if that is what we want.
Elaine
but what I DO know is that if you are seeing a side of her temperment that raises a big red flag in your head, then that probably is not a good behavior for to exhibit. I know this because I should have been seeing indicators in my own adult adopted shiba male of low confidence, fear and negative reactiveness, but didn't until it was too late and I got bit. That will never happen again - and anyone that has similar issues, I hope to prevent that from happening to them, too!
I think you can only get it evaluated properly by a professional - good call hiring one! I think you will find out a world of information with a good professional.
After seeing a behaviorist, we've started Kitsune with agility work and that has boosted his confidence SO MUCH that his fear and reactivity is practically vanished and we're going to be taking him for agility training soon to keep building that confidence. And we only really pieced that together once we saw the behaviorist.
And obedience classes build confidence and positive interactions!
Maybe in the meantime you can redirect her? Make her sit and shake when she's getting near to that dangerous zone? Just a thought!
Hang in there! Shibas are challenging, but they are rewarding. Good luck!!
I have a male 10 month old Shiba named Ninja. I got him from a breeder out of state and he was flown to me when he was 4 months old. About 2-3 months having him, we noticed he started showing signs of aggression towards other dogs. And he was fearful of strangers from the start. He warmed up to my boyfriend and I within a week and got along great with our female Boxer named Portia. We started taking them to our local dog park to socialize him with more people and dogs. We would go to this dog park every thursday night because a lot of the "usuals" would go then and we knew most of the dogs were pretty good. Well one night - i think maybe a month and a half after we got him, I kneeled down to pet a wiemeraner puppy and I heard Ninja growl, then a couple seconds later he snapped at the puppy. I got up and immediately re-directed him to the other side of the park. After that - we were a little confused and decided we would stop taking him there and sign up for obedience classes so he would still meet dogs but it was in a more controlled environment. Well it was a 8 week course and the first 6 weeks were great. He showed fear towards the strangers - but seemed ok with the dogs on lead. We had him neutered a week before the 7th class. When we atteneded the 7th class - a dog got too close to him (im guessing) and he snapped at him. None of the owners were really paying attention to the dogs, so no one knows for sure what happened. The last class was graduation. We had to get in line to do a race between 2 teams. A yorkie was next to Ninja and he snapped and got very vocal. After that - we hired a behaviorist. We knew something wasn't right.
We've had 4 lessons with the behaviorist so far. He seems to be doing much much better. Basically, Ninja has fear aggression and he also did not see us as the leaders, so he took it upon himself to be the pack leader. He still growls when dogs come too close to him. But he is better at being in their presence if they're not too close. We had brought in a male dog not too long ago. Things seemed well with the introduction, but as days went by Ninja started showing a lot of aggression. He ended up trying to charge my boyfriend twice. We made the decision that this 3rd dog was not going to work for us, so we had to return him to the breeder. From bringing in the male dog - we learned a great deal about Ninja. We never thought his aggression was that bad, now we know how bad it really is. We have been taking him out more often, like eating out at dinner at places with outdoor seating. Been doing A LOT of attentive training and doing little things to show we are the leader.
Trust me, I definately know how you feel, we are almost in the same boat and I applaud you for coming on here to get advice. And Im really glad you are getting a behaviorist. Im sure you will learn so much from the behaviorist and be able to control Mochi better. I am also going to disagree with Elaine. I don't think Mochi's behavior is "typical shiba behavior". Some Shiba's are reactive towards dogs, but usually just want to play or are correcting the other dog to knock it off. Reactiveness and Aggression are not the same. (Elaine - I don't think you have the right to tell Dave his information is incorrect just because he doesn't own a dog with behavioral issues. He doesn't have a dog with behaviorial issues (we should all be so lucky) but it doesn't mean he doesn't have the knowledge of knowing what is appropriate and what is not)I have a dog who is insecure, fearful and aggressive. Probably the worst mix of behavior problems out there. Fearful dogs take a very long time to adjust to new things and to really overcome their fears. You have to really take one baby step at a time or you might overwhelm them and take 5 giant steps back.
From what you posted - it seems that Mochi is a bit insecure about her new surroundings and is a little overwhelmed. I would really concentrate on building trust with her before doing anything else. She is in a new environment with new people and a new house. Introducing too many new things too fast can overwhelm a dog and make them act out. I would suggest spending lots of quality time with her and maybe first just inviting friends over and letting her socialize with people. After a month or so - I would enroll in obedience classes. All the dogs in the class are on lead and in control by their owners. This will get her used to "working" with dogs around her and getting praise for it. After the classes, then I might try introducing her to other dogs. For the first couple of times - I would just go to neutral territory and walk the dogs together - don't let them off lead. Its really about conditioning her to get used to things that are normal in our eyes, but may not be normal to her.
You may even try to pet another dog and praise her at the same time. For example - make her do a sit/stay and start petting the other dog. After a couple of seconds say "GOOD GIRL!!!" in a happy chipper voice and give her a treat. She will start to associate other dogs with praise and treats. Also - About her snapping at your neighbors dog for coming in the house - That was bad manners on the neighbor's dogs' side. Its like a stranger coming into your home unannounced and going through your things. Its rude. I think that is the reason she snapped. Next time if your neighbor does decide to bring her dogs over - Tell her to make her dogs sit outside the door and let Mochi approach the dogs. Let her sniff and do her thing - once she is done and walks away, let the other dogs into the home.
You may also want to try NILIF (Nothing In Life Is Free) training. This will help show Mochi you are the leader of the pack and maybe help her feel more relaxed and know that you are in control and will keep her safe. Before feeding times make her do something to deserve her food (ie: sit/stay for 2 minutes, then give her the food). Other people disagree about this - but it also helps if you eat first and then feed her. Drink something, eat a snack (in front of her, make sure she is watching) and then feed her after you're done. In Wolf Packs, the pack leader always eats first. Also - try to ignore her passive behavior. This means when she comes to you to get pet and you pet her. If she comes to you, ignore her. After she walks away, call her back, make her do a sit or down and give her affection. This shows her that you will give her affection on your terms not hers.
If another incident does happen - make sure you are calm and firm. Make a loud noise to get her attention and re-direct her and praise her if she obeys. My behaviorist recommended using water bombs to get Ninja's attention since once he is in that state of mind, he cares about nothing and listens to no one. Its just a water balloon filled with water, when you cant get her attention make a loud noise and throw the water bomb near her feet. This will get her attention, re-direct her and praise her. After a few times, she will start to associate the loud noise with a water bomb - so if you make that loud noise, her attention should be on you because she doesn't want water splashing on her.
Those are just a few recommendations from me. There is so much to learn about behavior, and so many different opinions. Just go with what you're comfortable and what works for Mochi. And BE CONSISTENT! Consistency is KEY! Sorry for the long post, but I wish you and Mochi the best and hope that her behavior improves with time. In a lot of cases, it seems that the owner needs the training, not the dog. A lot of dogs act out because their owner isn't stepping up and being a leader. But since Mochi is relatively new to you and your home, i think she might just be reacting negatively to all the changes around her. Im sure if you get her enrolled in some classes and start socializing her and working with the behaviorist, she will become an awesome dog. Please keep us updated on her status and post some pics if you can! Good luck with the behaviorist and Mochi!
Thank you for the comments so far. Scarlet, I think you are right about the considered and patient exposure route. The specifics about exactly what I do to expose her to other dogs is where I need help (and why I am seeking a behaviorist). For example: what clues should I be looking for to halt the outburst before it happens? Then exactly what do I do when I see it? Distraction? Correction? Self confidence boosting? Then, if she has an outburst do I shake her by the scruff? Jerk her leash? I think I could do more damage than good because I don't know enough. If I correct her will she think other dogs are the reason why?
I will see the behaviorist tomorrow. 2 hours for $150 which I think is a bargain if I can get a wonderful Mochi/Me relationship start. I spoke with her since I first posted and she said from what I'm telling her Mochi may have had perfectly good reasons for the outbursts. She said that until Mochi and I have built a very trusting relationship (which takes time) Mochi may be making decisions about how to protect herself without consulting me (the pack leader). I need to work with her to build trust and for her to understand how she should respond.....if anyone is going to start a fight it has to be me, the pack leader.
I will tell you how the session goes.
Thanks again for the very thoughtful responses.
I am very excited about Mochi, I just love her and I am getting so much out of her companionship. I just want us to start out right.
Laura
Good Luck with the Behaviorist tomorrow! And let us know how it goes!
Be careful of the leash jerk - do it just right! Quick and firm with immediate verbal correction - a consistant word of phrase and tone - If you create a taught leash near the dog she has an issue with without the quick jerk and verbal correction, this could creating more of an issue (like Romi said, make them want to lunge more).
The behaviorist will probably watch all her body languages and interactions and be able to determine, or at least teach her human how to determine, the stimulus of her behavior.
definitely let us know how it goes!!
First, someone walking in unannounced with two large dogs into a home with a new dog is very bad judgment on Nancy's part . Not to mention rude. I still don't let people bring dogs into my house, and when I have everyone is on leash.
A person who does something like that is in no position to be making behavioral assessments on someone elses dog.
And a new dog at 11 months old being uncomfortable whilst being restrained in the presence of a loose dog doesn't sound aggressive to me, it sounds fearful and rightly so. Shame on the neighbor whose dog was loose.
A behaviorist is a good idea for all dog parents. However I would talk to the breeder and explain to her why Mochi should probably be spayed.
I know how you feel, shibas can go from smiles and sunshine to Cujo’s evil twin at an alarming rate. To me I’m thinking there is anxiety in this animal, but fear based aggression is really more manageable than rank based aggression (IMHO); so please don’t get too discouraged. The dog will teach you a great deal and you’ll be a much better pack leader in the long run.
Thanks again for your comments. This is a great forum.
I edited/completed my second comment.
Keep us posted.
I believe I brought this up somewhere on another post….
Some dogs are known to be defensive towards other dog or dogs of the same gender, cats and other animals/mammals within their space. Some dogs display reactive behavior and when given a harsh correction a dog may respond to what it interprets as aggression with aggression. Therefore, scruff holding, rolling or harsh choke and leash corrections in many cases back fires and induces escalated unwanted behavior during times of high arousal. One may believe they win an encounter through physical force but submitting physically is not always submitting mentally for a dog.
In many cases with force you essentially teach the dog to suppress many cues that you really need to gauge where it is on the threshold scale. The last thing one wants to do is break down the communication between yourself and the dog that benefits you in correcting a situation. There are quite a few things communication wise that are subtle that lead up to particular behaviors and this is where a really good trainer can explain what to look for and show you how to work with the specific dog or particular problem area.
Working out the kinks is so much faster with motivational training and positive intervention. Once a Shiba or Spitzy shuts down on you due to lack of trust, it is REALLY hard to get it back if it is a result of force. There are some animals that you will never be able to muscle into doing things. I.e. Octopi, chickens, and whales to name a few. However they CAN learn to have fun and be handled via motivational training.. Not trying to candy coat training just pointing out I learned the hard way and it is much faster to go with motivation and redirection in many species.
Snf
We talked in detail about the two outbursts. She asked if Mochi actually bit any of the people involved. I said that I grabbed her too quickly for her to bite me. She laughed and said that if Mochi wanted to bite us she would have. Dogs are so much quicker than people. Did she injure the female Aussie when she attacked? I said she took a chunk of fur. She said that she realized it's disturbing to see a dog have an outburst like that but it's all noise and snarl; no real intent to injure. If she wanted to really hurt the Aussie or us she would have. She said that given the circumstances of both outbursts it was a reasonable reaction and that I should not correct her for this. She said I need to protect Mochi from other dogs breaching her boundaries. Don't put her in the position to have to make a decision about how she protects herself. Particularly when she is on leash and when they are loose. I need to get between her and the "threat" so she trusts that I am her protector. She thought Mochi was a very "reasonable " dog from her observations and as the trust between us grows she will become a great dog.
Conclusion is: Mochi is a normal Shiba and her mom (me) needs to gain her trust by being a good pack leader. Wheww.....big sigh of relief. Now the hard part begins....training the oh so smart little fuzzy girl.
As you said, the hard part now begins. The good news is, even though its the hard part, its the fun part!
Good luck and keep us updated on your progress. :-)
Snf
Keep us updated on her training!
that is invaluable advice!! it has really helped us with our male shiba!!
I'm glad it went well!
True dat. :0)
Great to hear that Moach is a keeper. I think you kinda knew that already, but a professional affirmation is always nice.
I'm carrying a treat bag now and using tons of positive reinforcement and NILIF; lots less leash correction. Wow, that sh*&t works! These Shibas are just too smart and dignified to be treated like a mere dog.
And yes, choke chains weren’t invented by a shiba owner; I’ve trained Mochi “old school” using the Koehler method (aka jerk and praise) and his little sister (Koda) is going the positive route. It’s too early to gauge the differences completely, but so far clickers seem to work a hell of a lot better than throw chains.
sorry forgot the link