We ordered a bark collar for Kona today.
Well, I NEVER thought I would get a shock/training/bark collar. I always thought they were kinda cruel and for people that don't care enough to do obedience training or understand training methods.
Well, I don't feel we fit that mold, we have had Kona in 2 obedience classes now [he is currently in his third with Lani] and worked with our trainer to stop his ridiculous barking and we have really seen no progress. We discussed the bark collar with her and she felt it was a good idea.
Here is our reasoning, he barks a LOT, at everything and anything. The barking doesn't bother us but he barks at our neighbors a lot and that bothers us. They are really cool and say they don't care, but its just really rude and has become a problem for us - so we want to stop it while he is still young enough.
Also, the biggest issue is, he sets the other dogs off - if Kona is not around our dogs rarely bark but with Kona around he barks, then Lani barks, then Ahi, then Fuji and then even Hilo starts... and then its just out of control.
So we have decided combine this tool with our positive reinforcement training to see if we get better results.
I'm interested to hear your thoughts on it...
Is this cruel of us?
Has anyone tried this on a Kai-Ken before? On any other dog breed?
What do you guys think?
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Well, I don't feel we fit that mold, we have had Kona in 2 obedience classes now [he is currently in his third with Lani] and worked with our trainer to stop his ridiculous barking and we have really seen no progress. We discussed the bark collar with her and she felt it was a good idea.
Here is our reasoning, he barks a LOT, at everything and anything. The barking doesn't bother us but he barks at our neighbors a lot and that bothers us. They are really cool and say they don't care, but its just really rude and has become a problem for us - so we want to stop it while he is still young enough.
Also, the biggest issue is, he sets the other dogs off - if Kona is not around our dogs rarely bark but with Kona around he barks, then Lani barks, then Ahi, then Fuji and then even Hilo starts... and then its just out of control.
So we have decided combine this tool with our positive reinforcement training to see if we get better results.
I'm interested to hear your thoughts on it...
Is this cruel of us?
Has anyone tried this on a Kai-Ken before? On any other dog breed?
What do you guys think?
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Comments
But if you feel you've tried everything else and it doesn't work, then it's only valid you try what you never thought you would, i think.
Combined with positve reinforcement, it shouldn't take him long to get it.
I have no doubt that you and Jen have given this a lot of thought - even to the point of anguishing over it - dogs are smart - combining with the positive reinforcement - I think will bring Kona around quickly.
But if you've both discussed the options and this will help meet your expectation for Kona, then let us know how it works out!
You guys are not rushing into this decision.
You aren't being lazy, and going straight for it.
You have explored your options thoroughly. He is in class, you have a trainer, you are educated on the topic probably more than your trainer. I think it is a sound option at this point and nothing to be ashamed of.
Let us know how it goes.
http://www.premier.com/View.aspx?page=dogs/products/behavior/sprays/commander/description
I have one. Pay me for the shipping and you can have it. You use a remote to spray it, and there is a beep sound, etc.
It's hardly been used at all. I have a good amount of the spray, one and a half cans or so. The collar might need new batteries though. The key is to keep the batteries fresh and the spray full.
Also - I know a guy who thought about using a shock collar on his dog. He tried it on himself first, he never put it on his dog.
Never say never. I've had to use a shock on all three dogs. And for those that think it's cruel, I tested it out on me first. Yep. Put the thing on my bare arm and zapped away. While it's not exactly pleasing, I didn't think it was life-threatening or hard enough to make me flip or have my hair stand on end. That said, I'm sure the dogs felt it less because of all that fur. Now keep in mind that I only set the thing to a level I was 'comfortable' using on myself - or hubby (grin).
For all three it was a run the fence and bark relentlessly thing. I only had to use it on Tasha 3 times. Now, I can call her away without a problem. Jack needed it once every couple months or so - sort of a refresher. Even then, there were times he wore it and I never had to hit the control - just call him. Ronan is not like the others. Little Man is scrappy as hell and although the collar works, the very first time it's off him he's right back at it. He doesn't get it like the others did: I can go outside with or without this collar - it's up to me. As smart as he is about everything else, Ronan is bullheaded when it comes to barking and flinging himself at the very nasty and mean lab/chow living right behind us that barks and snarls and pitches her own fit. That dog is outside 90% of the time and all it does is bark and act real nasty. It even gets Tasha fired up, which is no small feat. The owners won't do a darn thing about their dog, either. Complain and there's suddenly rotten food and all sorts of things in our yard mysteriously from their kids.
So, it's safer for Ronan to get the equiv of a 9 volt battery lick now and then as opposed to who knows what from the neighbors or that he's going to hurt himself or break a tooth the way he goes at that fence.
For those that don't know Ronan, he's not a mean guy, just very reactive and that other dog sets him off big-time. He doesn't have any issues with another neighbor's three pooches.
Citronella didn't work. Besides, the time it took me to put on shoes, trudge up the hill and spray them - no dice. They'd just run. I tried training it out of them, too. But it's really difficult for a dog to ignore another dog that means to shred them 6-ways till Sunday. The collar was my only choice.
Hopefully, Brad will find out that Kona is like Tasha or Jack and only needs a few sessions or the very rare reminder.
It's sad that your neighbor does not care about his dog.
I just know if there was ever a reason to think about them, I would need to exhaust every single other option. I haven't had reason to need one, so I'm sticking with my 'never' end of the spectrum.
I do wish it were different though. The only thing that helps is to offer him a squeaky toy for inside play. But then, he never gets to spend time in the sun, so I pick and choose my battles. That other dog really gets on my neves, the people even more so for letting it behave in such a manner (and for denying that their 'perfect' children would ever do anything unsaintly). I mean, WE can't even go into the yard without that other dog acting like it wants to shred us. Yeesh!
I dream of owning a few acres where I can fence off the whole thing, and then a safe section for my dogs. Alas, I haven't been able to win the lottery, become J.K. Rowling, or convince Bill Gates I'm a long lost heir. I guess I could just hope they move.
It'll be interesting to see what Kona's reaction is and how fast he learns NOT to bark. Keep us posted Brad!
I think if you’ve been through a number of classes and have some oversight you should be able to use your own judgment. My biggest concern would be creating an unintentional conditioned response. Kona sees the neighbor’s dog and barks, he subsequently gets an aversive correction; but he might come to the conclusion that the shock was the result of the dog coming too close to the yard, and not him barking. Now he really wants the dog to go away so he barks some more; gets another shock and gets madder at the other dog . . . yada yada vicious cycle.
Something I’ve considered doing with Mochi is putting a small transmitter on his collar. At the dog park he’ll usually be consistent about giving out a low growl when another dog gets up in his face. If I hear the cue I’ll immediately try to redirect his attention and/or intervene. Unfortunately, I’m an old fart now and my ears aren’t quite what they used to be; so I figure if I had one ear tuned in to his collar I’d be able to catch on to his alpha-angst a little quicker (and hopefully nip it at the bud). The only downside I see is that if he’s been running a lot folks are going to wonder about the pervert doing all the heavy breathing on their radios. ;0)
Ok, to start out, let me clarify - we did purchase a shock collar not the citronella kind. We tested Kona with the citronella kind with our trainer and it didn't work - he couldn't care less about being sprayed in the face by it. I think he even liked it a little.
So I researched a bunch of collars and asked a lot of peoples opinions [including our behaviorist] and figured I'd give it a shot. From talking with people it seems it can go one of two ways - the Michelle way where it works and is not needed very long, or the Kelly way where it freaks him out and we never use it again.
I have tested shock collars on myself before - not to my neck, but a dogs neck skin is a lot thicker and stronger than a humans. The shock sux, I mean I wouldn't want to experience it very often - but it didn't hurt... kinda like getting a Tattoo... not the best feeling but it wouldn't make you cry or anything.
Anyway, I don't want to hurt the little man... and Jen and I are like loosing sleep over the agony of the decision. But I really feel it is imperative that we get his barking and reactiveness to a more normal level. The reasons for this are not the typical reasons - like I stated before, I'm concerned about the neighbors but that is not the main reason. The main reason is our pack dynamic. Kona is confident and is moving up in the pack hierarchy, he is now just below Hilo [or Fuji, Fuji may move up past Hilo - she is very dominant]. What this means is we now have an overly excitable and confident dog in the "Alarm sounder" position. So Kona is constantly over stimulated and barking at things and that makes the rest of the dogs behave that way - this is not good.
So my hope is that the collar will help us in training him not to charge the fence and bark at EVERYTHING when a car drives down the road or a plain fly over head.
Like Ronan, Kona also throws himself against the fence and plunges his neck through the wire openings - I'm a little worries he is gonna hurt himself if we can't curve this type of behavior.
We have tried water, keep him on leash, calling him away to get a treat then redirecting him, etc... He just doesn't care... he will come into the house for a treat, eat the treat, then run right back out to bark some more... When on leash if we correct him he stops for a second then starts right back up again - I have literally stood there for like 30 minutes correcting him for barking with no progress. The water works but it only stops the barking when we spray him or when we are outside with the super soaker in hand... as soon as we go inside he is back to barking.
My hope is that the collar will become a bark deterrent that is not related to me and Jen.
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The collar I ordered has several modes. it has a mode that gives a tiny little shock [like a static shock] that intensifies [to a point] as he continues to bark.
The other mode has a "learning" feature that gives a weak warning the very first time he barks with the collar on and then continues to intensify till he stops - at that point it remembers that setting and then when he barks again it gives that level of correction.
It also has a bunch of safety features and will cut off if he just continues to bark so that its not continuously correcting him.
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Admittedly, I think a Kai-Ken is probably one of the breeds a shock collar will not work well with... but we will see. We are kinda out of options at this point.
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So... that is where we are on the collar thing. What do you think?
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Is Kona the alarm dog because Ahi is out of commission or does he have a higher status in the pack. I know you said she corrects everyone for inappropriate behavior, but is she not an alpha.
Good luck with all of this. Hopefully he learns quick.
I think when I've seen marketing for the products, it almost conveys that it trains for you, without addressing the core of the issue and without making the owner responsible for their dog.
But It sounds like you and Jen have tried to work with the core issues and tried other methods of training and are now worried for both his well being and the pack stability because of his barking and behavior and are taking responsibility for it. I hope this works for you for those expectations! Hopefully when he fully matures, he will just mellow out as well.
Does he just need a job to do or other stimulation? Is it a boredom bark or frustration bark or fixation?
I just hate to think about the collar on the dogs, and that shock and their confusion as it activates, but hopefully he will learn what is expected of him and learn it quick..
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Ahi is in the upper middle of the pack order. She was debilitated during the time that Kona developed his over-the-top "alarm dog" skills so she couldn't help out in "guiding" him in his role. Kona may have moved passed Ahi in the pack, I'm not sure - I will be able to tell you more once Ahi is recovered and free.
Pack order isn't really that linear anyway, the pack has rules for different activities and in some cases a pack member that is at a lower overall status will be allowed to take lead in certain activities. It is a fluid and ever changing situation - this is common in a "domestic pack" because resources are plentiful and there is no need for guarding and/or fighting over resources [bones, toys, water, etc].
It appears Kona has taken on the primary "alarm dog" role, and the majority of the pack reacts to and respects his leadership on this - Hilo will pick and choose whether he wants to follow Kona's "alarm dog" leadership role. But if Hilo ever barks, all the dog react and respect his alarm.
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As for the "job" question for Kona - yes he needs a job and he is bored - but this isn't boredom barking. Part of his job is guarding the property, most of the pack takes on this role on some level, his other job is making sure no birds enter our fenced in yard. I trained him to do this in order to minimize the amount of grass seed that gets eaten by the birds. He is very good at this job and seems to love it - he doesn't bark when doing this.
The "watchdog" trait is a very common and very strong trait in Kai-Ken - he is freakishly alert and is innately protective.
I have a hard time coming up with other jobs for him around the house - he always carries a pack on walks and goes to obedience so I consider those his part-time job too. Any suggestions?
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You might think about a remote training collar. Note: There are so many brands of "electric" collar and voltage differences etc.
The regular shock collar can go two ways it can dim down the problem or it can cause hyper stimulation. It really depends on the dog. The nodes need to checked and also the degree of charge and water resistance. Also depending on type and brand some are sensitive to the barks of other dogs. Hence you may end up punishing Kona for activity he does not create, and that would be horrible. Look at the specs for each, weigh the options carefully before you purchase.
Snf
But...
It came via FedEx today, I took it out of the package and started charging it - read the directions - looked at the "probes" - looked at Kona... and... I just can't use that thing. It just looks to hectic looking. I'm to much of a mush.
We are gonna send it back on Monday - I'll have to think of another idea.
I do need to order more fire wood, so I think I'll order like 5 cords and line the fence on my neighbors side with it - that will at least block their view till end of winter and probably cut down on some of he barking.
Sorry I wasted your time.. I thought I could do it and i felt I had justified it enough, but once I had it in my hand I just couldn't do that to one of our fluffs.
Kona is super annoying and frustrating, but I don't want to hurt him in anyway - the risk just doesn't out way the reward for me.
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Of course tonight, I let Ronan out and the other dog went off. I was out there with him and I swear I thought he was going to bust open his nose, sprain a leg or break a tooth the way he went at the fence. He wouldn't stop. I bumped, redirected, everything. Even got after the other dog. I blocked (or I tried to). Nothing. I finally had to pick Ronan up and carry him all the way down the hill and into the house. Between the other dog throwing itself on the fence and Ronan, I thought the boards were going to break. I didn't even have a squeaky toy to distract him with.
I hate it too, Brad. What I hate worse is that I have a pretty decent yard and those people behind me won't do a thing about their dog. When our other neighbor's dogs are out they all just whine and sniff between the boards. No problem. They'll race with each other, but it's all in play.
When the collar is on Ronan, I keep it on loose, much more loose than what it is supposed to. I use the short prongs, and the lowest setting. Still, I wish he could enjoy the yard. But nothing I do short of getting him to come inside and play with a toy works. Nothing. Ray thinks that he's really not getting much of a shock at all - more like an annoying tingle, and indeed he doesn't jump out of his skin - just backs off five or so feet from the fence. He'll still pace it, but he stops flinging himself.
I hope you find an answer for Kona that doesn't involve the collar. But if you decide to try it over the weekend, see if you put it on the lowest setting and try it on yourself first. Does it have a warning beep? I can warning beep Ronan to let him know the shock is coming. Once in a blue moon, that'll do the trick and I don't have to ping him.
tin can with a few coins does the trick for startling and redirecting the shibas but I don't think they are ever that focused or intense about anything..
or if he starts maniacally barking, can you muzzle him? does muzzling stop barking? I don't know much about muzzles either or if they would even be an effective training tool for your issue.
theres a job: maybe have him pull a piece of wood around mush style to wear him out some more.. sleeping dogs can't bark!
I'm just joking, I got what you meant, but the part about Kuma is true, he's quite the sleeping barker.
In any case I think you will need to call in a professional on that one. Maybe your trainer/behaviorist can explain the various collars to use in combo with some diversion methods.
Blocking the view should help some. You can order tarps for the fence if wood is of issue.
In the house you can teach a bark on cue so on the flip side get him to be quiet. Look at Karen Pryor items on her website. WDJ may have something on it in a back issue too.
Sorry this isn't of more help
Snf
Having said that, Josephine has always been very focused and determined to keep doing what she is doing and its difficult to get her attention when we do want to distract. I guess that translates into "hard to train". I agree with Kelly's suggestion of making a loud abrupt noise --- I find with Josephine even a loud clap of the hands helps me. My husband is able to get her attention by making his voice "bigger" and louder. Once we have her attiontion and have "broken" her connection with whatever it is she's focused on, she generally can be redirected. She has really mellowed a lot and is a lot easier to deal with as she gets older.
I am not in favor of shocks for dogs. For those testing on your own body to justify the use, I encourage all of you to try the shock collar on your own neck before using it. Just like the human body, there are zones/areas of the skin and nerve endings that are much more sensitive than others. Remember that feeling you get when bumping the elbow? You don't get that reaction everywhere on your body!!
At the dog park, we met an owner who had a collar that apparently amplified his voice and allowed him to transmit sounds more effectively. Could this be a better alternative than the shock?
Best of luck with Kona! He is a beautiful dog and I'm sure can co-exist in a peaceful way with all of you, your dogs and the neighbors given time and patience.
We got a collar from our trainer, she had an extra. Its a shock collar w/ a remote. We have not used it to "zap" him. Instead I decided to try an experiment on him.
The collar has a "pager" function that makes it vibrate like a cell phone. So I unscrewed the shock nodes and removed them [sot it can't shock him], put the thing around his neck thinking the pager thing would probably be enough to knock him out of his bark zone...
I put the darn thing on him and he didn't bark the entire time it was on! The others barked, but not him! Really strange!!!
Maybe he feels the collar give him a job??? - I mean is it kinda heavy, like 9oz or so.
Any thoughts?
We now keep it turned off and put it on him every now and then, he doesn't bark w/ it on unless there is really something to bark at. Is that not the strangest thing ever?
He doesn't seem to mind the collar at all too - so that's good!
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