Hilo's Teeth
We took Hilo to the dental vet the other day and she confirmed that the condition he has is called "Enamel Hypoplasia". She also informed us that, in his case, it's hereditary and not caused by a fever as a puppy (which is what we thought). Next week he goes to the dentist to get his teeth cleaned then get them sealed, this should help his sensitivity and keep them from being so dirty.
Enamel Hypoplasia basically means he has no, or very little, enamel on his teeth - that is why his teeth are so small (dog's have very thick enamel). When you look at Hilo's teeth you are really just looking at the Dentin, because there is no enamel. Here is an illustration to help:
So, this brings me to a question I would like everyone's opinion on... Hilo cost us a lot of money, we paid so much because he has amazing bloodlines (or so we thought) and a great personality. While we didn't purchase Hilo with the intent to breed him, we had considered it - especially since he has such a great personality. Now that we lived with Hilo for this long I obviously would never give him up, he is truly amazing and we love him VERY much. We don't consider any of our dogs a possession, they are members of our family and therefore we have unconditional love for them.
Having said all that, I do feel rather ripped off and taken advantage of. When we purchased Hilo, since he was in Madrid and not close, I knew there was a certain level of risk that we may not be getting what we were told. We did a lot of homework before we finally sent the money, and I feel we did as much as we could without going to Madrid and seeing him in person - and even if we did that I'm not sure we would have been able to see any of these issues.
So this is my question - knowing that parting with Hilo is NOT an option, what would you do in our situation?
Comments
I would ask Hilo's breeders for monetary reimbursement for the veterinary costs you have incurred do to his genetics. There are a lot of breeders out there who will pay for the hip surgeries, or knee surgeries on their dogs that they sell, I consider Hilo's problems to fall into the same area. Other than that, there is really nothing you can do.
I swear, it sounds just like what Tasha has. I wonder - is it more of a JA or AA thing? During rescue, I never came across another one with teeth like Tasha's and since we're pretty convinced she's a tweenie...
She's sensitive about them, too. Doesn't really chow down on bones like Ronan does or Jack did. Her play is different, too. Kinda like people who have sensitive teeth.
I'd recommend you clean them a few times a week - Tasha has to get her teeth professionally cleaned about every year-year and a half because of their condition. I'm trying to be better about it with the Petzlife. It does help, but hers still get bad - fast.
Ronan's, however, are perfect. He doesn't mind having his teeth cleaned. Tasha actually enjoys it. Jack was really good at it - He'd just lay there and let you mess with them. I could even use a pick with him.
Don't beat yourself up about it - you wouldn't have known IF you were able to see him before you bought him. He didn't have his adult teeth yet. How would you have ever known?
Brad,
I found this information for us...
http://www.akitalove.com/teeth.html
I appreciate all of the input, the contract doesn't state anything about reimbursement but it does certify him against genetic issues like eye and hip problems. I have been emailing the breeder from the beginning concerning these issues, so they are certainly aware of the situation. The responses I get are usually like "his ears could take up to 11 months to lift" and "I'm so sorry to hear he has these problems, as a breeder I was very proud of him"... So I don't get a whole lot out of those emails, but there is a pretty big language barrier.
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Michelle - We clean Hilo's teeth every day, that is what our vet told us to do early on. He doesn't love it - Ahi on the other hand LOVES to get her teeth brushed. The process we are going to have done for Hilo is a teeth cleaning a sealer, the sealer should help reduce the roughness in his enamel and reduce sensitivity. The process is about $400 - $600 and should make him feel a lot better. His dental vet is in Alpharetta - if you interested I can get you her contact info.
I read that article you sent and it mirrors what we have read in this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Akita-Treasure-Japan-II/dp/0971614601/ref=sr_1_10/002-3215351-8039231?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194016874&sr=1-10
It's a good book, but is geared more towards AA.
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I plan to write the breeder again this weekend and cite the expenses, I'll let you know what type of response I get.
I'm sorry to hear about Hilo's dental problem.
As you have found out, it is risky enough dealing with American breeders, many of whom do not fully test their breeding animals for fundamental disorders ... or don't do any at all (even though they say they do). Unfortunately, fear of being labeled as producing a "sick" dog leads too many to keep information to themselves. This problem is magnified when buying dogs from overseas breeders. A contract and health guarantee are only as good as the breeder standing behind them and his or her understanding of the ancestry with which they work.
Health screening is spotty in European countries, and nearly non-existent among Asian and South American breeders.
Of course, there is no "test" for enamel hypoplasia but it would certainly be readily obvious in the parents or in their immediate ancestors.
As you have already found, it is very unlikely that you will get any compensation for your costs.
This disorder is no more frequent in occurrence in Akita Inu than in American Akitas. We have imported, so far, 9 dogs from Japan and have had only one dog fail to pass the rigorous health screenings we require before we plan breeding them. Frankly, we consider ourselves lucky. However, we recently imported the most beautiful red bitch I have honestly ever seen (and paid more than a small fortune for her) only to learn that she is dysplastic. We had great hopes for her in our future breedings, but despite her stratospheric cost, she is now permanently removed from our program.
You no doubt did your homework in getting Hilo. However, to everyone, I would caution to not only inquire about health testing for a minimum of hips, eyes and thyroid, but to require proof of the results of such testing. Healthy parents are more likely to produce healthy offspring and having such proof is more important than any guarantee that may or may not be enforceable. Remember, that any ethical breeder in the US who has tested breeding stock will have that information entered in the open health registries of OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals ... www.offa.org). Foreign breeders should be required by buyers to provide official documentation.
Breeders who have done the minimum tests required by the parent breed club will also be listed in CHIC (the Canine Health Information Center). This is a passive process and CHIC numbers are issued automatically after tests are done without any involvement of the owner. Unlike OFA, which certifies "normalcy," CHIC simply certifies that a breeder has ethically performed minimal tests. It is a scanal in Akitas that there are only 106 total Akitas listed in the CHIC database.
Best of luck with Hilo. Be sure to have his eyes checked yearly by a veterinary ophthalmologist, and his hips and thyroid checked as early as 18 months. Early detection of all problems can make a significant difference in a pet's future ability to cope with disorders if they exist.
Sorry to climb on a soapbox, but this subject is very close to my heart. I hope that by taking opportunities to enlighten potential buyers, some future heartache and disappointments can be avoided.
Michael Sanders
Member, President's Council of the AKC Canine Health Foundation
Hi Michael, thanx for posting - and welcome to the forum! :c)
I appreciate the input, and we do plan to get - and have had - Hilo screened for all the typical genetic health issues. His hips look great, and so far his eyes look great too. We have yearly blood work done on all our dogs, and Hilo will be no exception (he may even get it twice a year).
The frustrating thing about Hilo is his lineage - both of his parents are great quality and his dad and grandfather are regular show winners - but obviously that doesn't mean much. In hind sight we probably should have just stayed on your waiting list... we just saw Hilo as the perfect opportunity.
Having said all that Hilo's temperament was what really pulled us to him and his breeder. He is really a gentle giant.
As far as his teeth go, he had his procedure done today and his teeth look 1000% better than they did. I was skeptical the sealant would really do much but, while they are still very small, his teeth really do look a lot better. He is a little out of it tonight from the stress, but hopefully he will feel much better tomorrow - I'm excited to see if his teeth seems to be less sensitive... that is our number one concern (we want him to be comfortable).
Anyway, as I have mentioned before, I'm pretty disappointed in how it's turned out for Hilo but I'm glad he is with us because he is really a great dog. I'm also happy he is with us because we are fortunate enough to be able to provide the care and treatment he needs to be more comfortable in his life. I would hate for him to have ended up with a family that didn't (or couldn't) provide the same level of care.
Thanx to everyone for the support and comments, it's really very helpful... As of now I have heard nothing from Hilo's breeder - but we will see, and I will keep you guys posted.
Welcome, Michael!
Thanks for the wealth of information! And it's good to see another Akita fan here. I only have one left - a rescue girl. My other is a pedigree Shikoku, who so far (knock on wood), had been exceptionally sound and healthy. If we breed him, we plan on having the appropriate tests - all certified - before he's bred.
Michelle
Michael,
How cool to have you with us! Sounds like you have a wealth of really great information to share with us. Welcome!
Hey Michael! This is Rachael, your Atlanta future dog owner. Im so glad you have found your way here. Hilo is the JA that I have referred to. I have continued to do research with many kennels and breeders and hands down you continue to amaze me. There is no doubt in my mind that we are forever fans.
Im glad Hilo is looking better and Im sure will be eating the house like the others very soon.
If there was a contract involved. It might be more difficult because of distance (and possible language barriers). It may depend on who you got puppy from and their country laws though <-- I think it only matters in country puppy was purchased, reguardless of what your country law says.
That is definitely something to look into <--- I take it said breeder is not willing to work out issue?
Sometimes though, you just have to cut your losses and do the best that you can with the situation. I have heard of breeders importing puppies/adults from other countries. The dog for whatever reason does not turn out, has faults or other problems. Breeder paid $3,000 and ends up either giving away (to someone wanting to take in and care for a dog with health issues) or selling into pet home for $800 (healthy dog, but perhaps conformation faults big or minor) <-- this happens more often then not, unfortunely.
Hello all -
Thanks for the very nice welcome. I hope to learn
much more about other Japanese "reconstruction" breeds on this forum.
It seems like a friendly, open group.
And, Rachael, I wouldn't want everyone to think I don't like Shibas. I just don't want to live with one <lol>. I'm not sure my laid-back Akitas could deal with the demands.
We
just returned from a highly successful trip to the 2007 San Juan Dog
Exposition, so I'll keep my comments brief. Normally, brevity is not
one of my strong points! With the Akita National Specialty in TN, the
AKC Canine Health Foundation Parent Breed Club research conference in
St. Louis and Puerto Rico all occurring during the past few weeks, I'm
a little "dogged out." As usual, "recovery" will be quick.
MichaelIn
addition to my learning more about you, your dogs and your breeds, I am
always willing to discuss all aspects of my favorite breed ... Akitas.
Sure - blame it on the Akitas! We all know it's your laid-back nature that couldn't deal with a Shiba's demands. lol! (just kidding) We have 5 Japanese dogs now, and I think the majority of the time we spend caring for them is really just us dealing with Maui, our male Shiba, and his demands and Shiba-tude. He can be a real pain, but he can also be the sweetest little man. I think Shibas help teach people patients and not to sweat the small stuff. Kaia, our female Shiba, is not problem but I think she is really just a VERY SMALL Akita.
I am notified every time we get a new user on the forum, and I have noticed that we have a very large Akita community on this forum. The thing is the Akita owners don't post much... my theory is that Akita are so mellow and cool that there is nothing to post about! I mean if it wasn't for some health issues I wouldn't need to post anything about Hilo - he is so mellow and low maintenance that, other than talking about how great he is, I have nothing to post about him.
Here is a question for you... Do you ever work your Akitas? Like mushing, packing, or anything?
First, most Akita people are anything but laid-back. However, many tend to be pack animals and may be uncomfortable talking about other breeds where they feel out of their element and away from their supportive cliques. Frankly, I'd rather interact with a pushy Shiba than many of the Akita people <lol>.
I think one of the reasons for a lack of more active participation on this forum is because the topics here don't center on the typical focus of most Akita discussion groups: showing and breeding. Once you take away the bragging and the puppy announcements, there often isn't much of substance going on on other forums. Oddly, the hot topic on one discussion list this past week has been about Pomeranians <lol>. At the moment, this is the only dog forum I'm reading or in which I'm participating. I have a big, fat, giant show brag from this past week, but I don't think this is the place for it, nor have I bothered posting it to the 3 or 4 big Akita lists because fully Japanese import type is largely ignored or downright dissed.
I don't want to swipe with an overly broad brush as there are many excellent Akita people whose interests expand beyond the relentless emphasis on dog shows. Since I see there is a thread on that topic elsewhere on this forum, I'll save any comments on the topic of dog showing (which I see as a somewhat necessary evil but often a destructive and completely overly emphasized activity). Too often, companion owners feel left out .. even treated as irrelevant. This is sad, but it's a complaint I've heard expressed many times. Many prominent breeders do not even deign to respond to inquiries about Akitas or do so only superficially (send me a deposit and we'll talk). Perhaps some on this list have found this out themselves.
Perhaps my joining into the discussion will encourage some of the Akita owners on this list to venture out and talk about things like health, the joys of the breed's unique characteristics, and the many endearing behaviors with which they endear themselves to us .. some of which they share with other Japanese breed and some that are uniquely Akita.
Akitas are not the most trainable breed in the dog world. Highly intelligent, they are no different than other Japanese reconstruction breeds: too analytical and independant to do too many tricks. There are exceptions. A member of this forum, Britain, mushes her dogs (which I believe include Akitas) and Bill Bobrow has trained at least two "seeing-eye" working Akitas and is also involved in mushing with Akitas. We have some members of the Akita community (particularly with import type Akitas) that are very active in agility. However, these are the exception rather than the rule.
I warned in an earlier post that brevity is not one of my strong points. I'll try to curb my soapbox tendencies better in the future.
Michael
Michael-
I know we would love to hear about your brag's!!!! Some forums can be very discouraging, un-welcoming and more than anything judgmental. This is the only forum that I feel we can talk about so many different topics with acceptance, understanding and healthy advice.
We also are very accepting of all Akita's of any type and mix! I know many Akita forums that are very closed minded.
I would not mind hearing about your brags either... but honestly I have zero interest in showing. It is the work ability, history and behavioral (primitive) aspects of these breeds that interests me.
I remember Britain writing about mushing w/ her Akita and Chinook - that is what got me interested in doing it with Hilo. Also, due to his cologne issues, part of Hilo's physical therapy is to pull us - so I have found that using positive reinforcement he has learned to pull very well.
Hilo is very food and "positive reinforcement" motivated. You are right tho, he is also super stubborn. I mean try moving him if he doesn't want to move... we call him "lead butt".
Anyway, I'm glad you are part of the group and I hope it pulls some other Akita owners into the discussions - I also hope the discussions stay open minded and educational. :c)
~Brad
You mean that Hilo gives you that infamous "Surely you can't be talking to me" look? I've seen it a million times!
I, for one, really dislike show brags. They tend to remove the focus from the important aspects of responsible dog ownership and the things that appeal to me about purebred dogs: genetics, health, intelligent breeding for increased healthy genetic diversity and just a love of my dogs as companions, first. However, since I have two votes for the brag, here it is.
Our brindle male import, Ryo (Ryouun Go Miyagi Kozaki Kensha) was exhibited at the 2007 San Juan International Dog Exposition over the past three days (we also attended an associated health conference). He won BOB each day and completed the final requirements for the FCI International Champion title. Due to his wins last May at the World Dog Show series in Mexico City (where he achieved his Mex title), he also was awarded Pan American Ch., Latin American Ch., and Puerto Rican Ch.
The FCI title is very difficult to achieve as one must win CACIB (championship challenge certificates) in three different countries under three different international judges. There must be more than one year elapsed between the first and the last CACIB. Ryo received his first in Japan. It is a more common title in Europe and Asia due to the close proximity of FCI member countries.
With the exception of the US, Canada, UK and Australia the rest of the world's dog shows are held under the authority and regulations of the FCI (Fédération Cynologique Internationale or World Canine Organization, headquartered in Belgium). Japan, for example, is a member of the FCI. To receive a CACIB, each dog receives a written critique (which must be rated "Excellent"). Dogs can also be rated "Very good," "Good," "Sufficient," or "Disqualified." It is purely at the judges' prerogatives to award or withhold a CACIB (and they do) even if a dog is otherwise judged as "excellent." This method makes FCI more reflective of a dog's breed and temperamental quality than the AKC method which is as much politics as anything else. Ryo has received CACIB under two Japanese, a Swiss, a Mexican, a Peruvian and a German judge.
FCI recognizes two Akita breeds, the Akita and the American Akita (formerly the "Great Japanese Dog" .. a name which suited me better). To the annoyance of many "American" breeders, the FCI considers Japan to be the country of origin for both and, ironically, Japan therefore controls the breed standard for American Akitas.
So, to Int., Pan American, Latin American, Mexican and Puerto Rican Ch. Ryo ... salut! He requires only three points to complete his AKC Ch. My capable partner Donald handled Ryo to all of his wins, both domestic and international. Please ... hold your applause. His greatest value is not in his titles, but in his superior type, health and temperament. Titles only help make it possible for him to contribute those genetic virtues to the gene pool which is so lacking.
Our newest import bitch (red) also received three CACIB and her Puerto Rican title. These were her first dog shows and she loved it. That's one thing about shows for the dogs .. if they take to it they find it great fun to travel and to show. In a sense, it's a "purpose" they enjoy.
/brag mode off
Michael
Michael, Love hearing from you. What you have to say is so interesting so please, don't be brief.
Do you have photos of your Akitas?
Michael,
I think anyone who has shared their life with an Akita can say they know what it is like to have their very heart and soul stolen by a dog. I miss my Akita boy, Captain Jack Hachiko (Jack) with all my heart. I love my girl Tasha to pieces (Tasha Belle Shan Tenshi). I showed neither as I'm more of a companion dog person.
I was involved with Akita rescue a few years ago. Tasha was one I kept. She is the sweetest Akita I've ever met, and very willing to learn new things IF: 1) it pleases me 2) I have food and 3) I keep sessions brief.
Jack was the typical male - stoic, clown, loving, protective, alert, intelligent. Jack understood nearly 60 words, excluding words we spelled around him and he STILL managed to know what we were talking about. He was more than an amazing dog - he was an amazing being.
Like you, I'm interested in keeping my dogs healthy and happy. I do a lot of reading on nutrition.