I just went through the same thing. Petco and Petsmart didn't have them. Petco had one in a kit with Karen Pryors book and some treats. I bought that and then ordered 30 more online directly from Karen Pryors site
I am training all the volunteers at the shelter to clicker train the shelter dogs. And I have been doing some training work as part of my training, and I keep giving my clickers to clients. So I will likely go through 30 quick. That clicker is on her site too. I ordered 30 2 days ago. They arrived today. Great site!!
Yeah, I just noticed its on her site too. Better to give away the i-Click than the $15.00 Clicker+. :-)
Let me know how it goes at the shelter. If/when I get the hang of this clicker thing I would like to start working with some of the dogs at the shelter too. I know she has a book about clicker training specifically for shelter environments. I may add that to my reading list (which is super backed up right now).
The shelter dogs, really blossom with positive reinforcement. Especially when you consider it gives them very clear signals in a very confusing atmosphere.
Seems to me the electric one kinda misses the mark. Any clicker can treat one to one; I want one that has an embedded controller, a table of pseudo random numbers, and dial (funky retro bakelite plastic of course) to set the percentage from zero to 100%. That way when I decide to fade the rewards there isn’t any guess work. Getting clicky treats will be like going to Vegas and playing the slots, just like BF Skinner intended. )
They're "easier" and "more immediate" so they get popular. No problem if they do more damage than good, they get the job done (or so people think).
I've had results with a clicker in 5 minutes. 5 minutes! And they still last today. Of course it wasn't 5 minutes and then never again, it took consistent work for a few days and then started to fade the clicker and the food. People who don't have the patience or don't want to put some effort into it or simply don't know any better, go the shocking way.
I'm a bad owner: Beebe's fear barking was out of control and a trainer suggested a bark collar. I should have known better, because why would punishing a dog for being fearful give it confidence to deal with something scary? Anyways I used it, once, on the trainer's advice, but after hearing her scream (it was horrible) and try to hide, and see her immediate change in personality, becomming more fearful, with an increase in fearful barking (duh), I banned the collar from the house because she cowers when she hears it jingling. They are horrible tools and I should have never used one. I changed the whole approach and am working at her pace with positive rewards for good behavior and ignoring the bad, but shock collars are no way to gain your dogs trust. I am so regretful to have ever used one, just that once even. Good news is she is her usuall self and more confident.
You learned from your mistake, and have moved onto better things, so you have no reason to feel that you are a bad owner. You trusted someone who pretends to be a dog trainer, it happens to a lot of people.
Well said Brandon. And, to add to that, even if you were against the idea at the time, psychological pressures make it very difficult to disagree with "an expert" that you have hired. So, don't feel bad. Be proud that you learned and moved on and, more importantly, are making progress!
That is very big of you to admit it. I know many people get sucked into so called expert methods, who use or advocate harmful techniques. At least you learned and were able to see what was wrong with the whole thing and your dog is doing better now.
I try to point out to people, if you were a human and you had a teacher and the teacher said to your parents, your son/daughter is afraid of clowns, so I am going to do this for his own good, when he cries I am going either pinch, shock or jerk him with collar or hair and or wrestle your child to the ground to stop him/her being reactive. Honestly would that work for you, would you want to be subjected to that and would you really want to do that to your child? I hate to equate it to humans but it gets the point across. What if you child could not talk or was handicapped would that justify the methods because it could not speak. Dogs are not humans as we know but the certainly get the brunt of things for not being able to communicate in the way we wish.
Work with the clicker for training, the responses are incredible, you want the dog to willingly work with you and not against you. As others have pointed out it is amazing tool once you have it down.
Static is right on the money, you would be shocked (pun intended) with what folks are capable of when some bozo in a white lab coat tells them to do something. This is the classic example:
I've played with the idea of getting a shock collar before, I think in the right hands it may be a resonable tool of last resort. I don't think they are something you should consider until you've exhausted all of your other options.
I've always wondered about clicker training. For those of you that have had success with this method, how long did you do it until you were able to wean the dog off of treats? Or will treats always be a part of the reward system for that methodology?
Treats are merely the way you teach them to equate the click with good things. Theoretically you could do it with praise instead however treats work really quick and you don't have to treat them for very long.
The first order of business in the behavior training mantra is "do no harm". Anyone who crosses that right away needs to go jump.... Diggah thanks for that link on the "white coat" topic.
Given animals do not have a voice, fundamentally we have an obligation to speak on their behalf. As pet owners it is our job to step in to protect when needed, be it from themselves, another animal or human etc.
******
As a result of the Standford Prison Experiments , after 1981, universities started looking more closely at the situation of responsible conduct in research. Yeah it happened that late...
Responsible conduct in research is still complex and controversial particularly in regard to animal care and use. If interested, more info on RCR can be found from the Office of Research Integrity.
I'm not sure about "shock collars" as in "bark collars", however "shock collars" as in "e-collars" are suppose to be, surprisingly, a "positive" thing. Sadly, most people do not use them correctly. Most people use it as a "negative", to give correction, WRONG! It's more of a "reminder", basically a way to communicate to your dog when he/she is at a distance. Thinking of it this way though, I suppose just a "vibrate" collar would do this just as well as electric.
Note: I would never put anything on my dogs that I wouldn't put on myself.
Now, after having typed the above. I need to go out and buy a collar that vibrates and can be cued on a control. My speculation is that it'd have the same effect on a dog that the e-collar would. Only, it's a different form of "energy".
As with any training tool, it needs to be taught correctly, not only does the handler have to know how to use it. The dog has to learn and understand how to "control" and "manipulate" it.
I will try it out on Lynx! And then spam the dog equipment ads with vibration collars!!! lol.
I'm not sure about "shock collars" as in "bark collars", however "shock collars" as in "e-collars" are suppose to be, surprisingly, a "positive" thing. Sadly, most people do not use them correctly. Most people use it as a "negative", to give correction, WRONG! It's more of a "reminder", basically a way to communicate to your dog when he/she is at a distance. Thinking of it this way though, I suppose just a "vibrate" collar would do this just as well as electric.
Now, after having typed the above. I need to go out and buy a collar that vibrates and can be cued on a control. My speculation is that it'd have the same effect on a dog that the e-collar would. Only, it's a different form of "energy".
As with any training tool, it needs to be taught correctly, not only does the handler have to know how to use it. The dog has to learn and understand how to "control" and "manipulate" it.
I will try it out on Lynx! And then spam the dog equipment ads with vibration collars!!! lol.
I'm not sure about "shock collars" as in "bark collars", however "shock collars" as in "e-collars" are suppose to be, surprisingly, a "positive" thing. Sadly, most people do not use them correctly. Most people use it as a "negative", to give correction, WRONG! It's more of a "reminder", basically a way to communicate to your dog when he/she is at a distance. Thinking of it this way though, I suppose just a "vibrate" collar would do this just as well as electric.
Now, after having typed the above. I need to go out and buy a collar that vibrates and can be cued on a control. My speculation is that it'd have the same effect on a dog that the e-collar would. Only, it's a different form of "energy".
As with any training tool, it needs to be taught correctly, not only does the handler have to know how to use it. The dog has to learn and understand how to "control" and "manipulate" it.
I will try it out on Lynx! And then spam the dog equipment ads with vibration collars!!! lol.
Dog barks for various reasons and some methods are much better than others in resolving the issue. Go for the least aggressive method first. Sometimes what we think is causing a barking problem is not really the issue psychologically.
Whole dog Journal has brief mention of barking in this month's issue. Turid Ruaggas author of calming signals has looked into this as well. Here is her latest and worth delving into on the topic.
http://www.amazon.com/Barking-Language-Dogwise-Training-Manual/dp/1929242514
Right now a close friend is working through a barking poodle. Yes, I know a poodle...what a surprise it barks. Anyway, it was assumed the reactive barking was out of fear ...well after a long bout of observations it turns out the horrible barking is based on excitement and frustration.....basically not getting what it wants when restrained by fence, leash or other barrier. Working to extinguish it has been quite time consuming and ear splitting. By the way this person has been training for sometime and it even took her some time to narrow down the exact trigger/ cause and the mind set behind the dog. It took some taping of events and other trainers to help with conclusions and come up with options. It is getting better, but it is a slow process. Barking is self rewarding so it is much more difficult to eliminate.
Thank you SnF. I know my Shiba anyway tends towards reacting with either fear or flight in new situations, so definately your analogy makes sense and you would want to have the most positive training experiences without punishment because it just makes everything more negative. Work and life are negative enough, my off-time with my dog shouldn't be.
Comments
http://www.clickertraining.com/store/?item=imyoiscofsi
BTW, 30? Do you misplace things a lot or something? What on earth do you plan to do with 30 clickers?
Let me know how it goes at the shelter. If/when I get the hang of this clicker thing I would like to start working with some of the dogs at the shelter too. I know she has a book about clicker training specifically for shelter environments. I may add that to my reading list (which is super backed up right now).
----
Maybe shock collars are the new "fad" therapy / training method?~
I've had results with a clicker in 5 minutes. 5 minutes! And they still last today. Of course it wasn't 5 minutes and then never again, it took consistent work for a few days and then started to fade the clicker and the food. People who don't have the patience or don't want to put some effort into it or simply don't know any better, go the shocking way.
http://www.petedge.com/catalog/search.jsp?N=0&Nty=1&Ntk=AllSearch&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntt=clicker
I try to point out to people, if you were a human and you had a teacher and the teacher said to your parents, your son/daughter is afraid of clowns, so I am going to do this for his own good, when he cries I am going either pinch, shock or jerk him with collar or hair and or wrestle your child to the ground to stop him/her being reactive. Honestly would that work for you, would you want to be subjected to that and would you really want to do that to your child? I hate to equate it to humans but it gets the point across. What if you child could not talk or was handicapped would that justify the methods because it could not speak. Dogs are not humans as we know but the certainly get the brunt of things for not being able to communicate in the way we wish.
Work with the clicker for training, the responses are incredible, you want the dog to willingly work with you and not against you. As others have pointed out it is amazing tool once you have it down.
Snf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
I've played with the idea of getting a shock collar before, I think in the right hands it may be a resonable tool of last resort. I don't think they are something you should consider until you've exhausted all of your other options.
Thanks,
Jesse
http://www.clickertraining.com/
They have all the info you could ever want and videos too.
Given animals do not have a voice, fundamentally we have an obligation to speak on their behalf. As pet owners it is our job to step in to protect when needed, be it from themselves, another animal or human etc.
******
As a result of the Standford Prison Experiments , after 1981, universities started looking more closely at the situation of responsible conduct in research. Yeah it happened that late...
Responsible conduct in research is still complex and controversial particularly in regard to animal care and use. If interested, more info on RCR can be found from the Office of Research Integrity.
Snf
Note: I would never put anything on my dogs that I wouldn't put on myself.
Now, after having typed the above. I need to go out and buy a collar that vibrates and can be cued on a control. My speculation is that it'd have the same effect on a dog that the e-collar would. Only, it's a different form of "energy".
As with any training tool, it needs to be taught correctly, not only does the handler have to know how to use it. The dog has to learn and understand how to "control" and "manipulate" it.
I will try it out on Lynx! And then spam the dog equipment ads with vibration collars!!! lol.
Now, after having typed the above. I need to go out and buy a collar that vibrates and can be cued on a control. My speculation is that it'd have the same effect on a dog that the e-collar would. Only, it's a different form of "energy".
As with any training tool, it needs to be taught correctly, not only does the handler have to know how to use it. The dog has to learn and understand how to "control" and "manipulate" it.
I will try it out on Lynx! And then spam the dog equipment ads with vibration collars!!! lol.
Now, after having typed the above. I need to go out and buy a collar that vibrates and can be cued on a control. My speculation is that it'd have the same effect on a dog that the e-collar would. Only, it's a different form of "energy".
As with any training tool, it needs to be taught correctly, not only does the handler have to know how to use it. The dog has to learn and understand how to "control" and "manipulate" it.
I will try it out on Lynx! And then spam the dog equipment ads with vibration collars!!! lol.
Whole dog Journal has brief mention of barking in this month's issue. Turid Ruaggas author of calming signals has looked into this as well. Here is her latest and worth delving into on the topic.
http://www.amazon.com/Barking-Language-Dogwise-Training-Manual/dp/1929242514
Right now a close friend is working through a barking poodle. Yes, I know a poodle...what a surprise it barks. Anyway, it was assumed the reactive barking was out of fear ...well after a long bout of observations it turns out the horrible barking is based on excitement and frustration.....basically not getting what it wants when restrained by fence, leash or other barrier. Working to extinguish it has been quite time consuming and ear splitting. By the way this person has been training for sometime and it even took her some time to narrow down the exact trigger/ cause and the mind set behind the dog. It took some taping of events and other trainers to help with conclusions and come up with options. It is getting better, but it is a slow process. Barking is self rewarding so it is much more difficult to eliminate.
Snf