Aggression! Grrrr!
Ahh ok so a few weeks ago, I saw a pair of shiba inus at the park and I yelled "heeeey there you have shibas!". I then approached with my dog totally under control (she's unfortunately so terrified of all dogs and people that I dont have to worry about her going after anything even if Im not holding her on 1 ft of lead). When I got up to the dogs, I talked to the owner a bit, and then I noticed one (a REALLY overweight shiba, like twice Tsuki's 18 lbs) start coming at her really menacingly. Then FIGHT!!!!!!!!! I got a horrible puncture wound on my knee, the girl who owned them only said "sorry". She seemed unconcerned, I shouldve been angry and told her to control her dogs, but I was so shocked I just rushed back to my car when and drove home to clean myself up.
A week or so later I tried to introduce Tsuki to my friend's little 12 y/o lhasa apso/chihuahua mix, RIcky. He's very calm and even, sooo well behaved. He approaches Tsuki and she snarls, its more out of insecurity and fear than agression, in my opinion. I hold her so he can sniff her and they leave each other alone for awhile. Later that night he comes to close again and she backs up barking her head off - he JETS!!. Most of the time they both do a good job of ignoring one another.
Ricky:
Then yesterday, I had them hang out again. I held her and allowed him to sniff her... they were fine all night. They never interacted, Ricky would just know to stay away from her. I go to my mom's house and my friend follows with her dog. Tsuki is sniffing my bro with her back to Ricky, when Ricky approaches her. She ATTACKED him, and I got bitten breaking it up... again! I pinned her in front of Ricky (Im sure not everyone agrees with this, but Im here to get opinions and techniques) because he was really traumatized and hid most of the night.
How do I deal with dog aggression without other dogs getting seriously hurt!? Should I find some bigger friends for Tsuki before trying another introduction?
A week or so later I tried to introduce Tsuki to my friend's little 12 y/o lhasa apso/chihuahua mix, RIcky. He's very calm and even, sooo well behaved. He approaches Tsuki and she snarls, its more out of insecurity and fear than agression, in my opinion. I hold her so he can sniff her and they leave each other alone for awhile. Later that night he comes to close again and she backs up barking her head off - he JETS!!. Most of the time they both do a good job of ignoring one another.
Ricky:
Then yesterday, I had them hang out again. I held her and allowed him to sniff her... they were fine all night. They never interacted, Ricky would just know to stay away from her. I go to my mom's house and my friend follows with her dog. Tsuki is sniffing my bro with her back to Ricky, when Ricky approaches her. She ATTACKED him, and I got bitten breaking it up... again! I pinned her in front of Ricky (Im sure not everyone agrees with this, but Im here to get opinions and techniques) because he was really traumatized and hid most of the night.
How do I deal with dog aggression without other dogs getting seriously hurt!? Should I find some bigger friends for Tsuki before trying another introduction?
Comments
I'd have Tsuki drag a lead at all times around other dogs, that way you have something to grab onto and don't have to reach your arms in.
If Tsuki always snarls when Ricky approaches (he does always back up), and I allow it with no correction, what can she learn from the encounter? I guess that's my main issue, they do a great job of ignoring eachother because Tsuki isn't interested in social behavior and Ricky doesn't forget the negative experience he had with her. Having them both ignore eachother, but with no fighting isn't really the end I'd like to see. I want her to have a happy social life!
Tsuki has been losing fears through desensitization - for instance, she was afraid of bus brakes, so I constantly would walk her through downtown, and slowly she wasn't affected by them, and most other loud noises. My logic with holding her to be sniffed is that eventually (if she ever stops attacking him), she'll realize nothing negative happens after being sniffed, as nothing negative happens after a bus drives by.
And I do hold her on her side.
Some dogs, especially those who weren't socialized properly when young, aren't into playing with other dogs. Or it takes them a long time to get into playing with other dogs. LJ would be a good person to talk to about that. Jazz has very slowly learned how to play and accept other dogs, but it has taken a lot of time, effort and patience on LJ's part to get there.
My in-laws have a Golden Retriever that ignores all other dogs, just isn't interested in spending time with them. However she does not get nasty or aggressive, so it's no big deal. She just prefers people to dogs.
However, until you can get some positive interactions happening with Tsuki under supervision of a trainer or behaviorist, start small and safe. Walk her past dogs, treat her when she doesn't react. Treat her when she's calm, treat her when she sniffs. Don't push her limits.
I'm fostering a dog that isn't dog friendly and we're starting small by walking him next to another calm dog. He snaps and snarls, but on walks he does not react, so its a way to bring a dog into his general area while not creating a bad situation. We are slowly conditioning him to reaccept dogs in his space. It might take weeks, months or never happen.
Like Brandon said, showing teeth, growling, barking - these are all signs on communication that dogs will use towards other dogs. She is using signaling to the dogs to back off, she's not interested. Forcing her to interact when she's already shown signs of distress and dislike will inevitably cause a bad situation. Rolling her or pinning her is, to me, a breech of trust between you and Tsuki. I would never use force in a situation that could be a positive training opportunity. Instead, read her signs and when she's showing that she is uncomfortable or about to start something, redirect her - make her sit - regain the calm and control. Keep a leash on her, clap your hands to distract her intent from fighting and use it as a positive training session. Using force will bring more frustration and confusion to her in an already stressful situation.
LJ will be able to shed some light with how she helped Jazz. I think she was innovative and read her dog well and has been seeing the great results of her work with Jazz.
Do some reading, Suzanne Clothier, Patricia McConnell, Turid Rugaas, etc.
There is also a great book on calming dog-dog reactiveness with clicker training... I can't find the name of it, I'll post when I do.
Janaki - I understand about the financial aspect of things, but you may want to begin putting some money away if these things don't work. As we know, each dog is different and while this has worked with Jazz it doesn't mean it will work for Tsuki.
1. How much does Tsuki trust you? Does she see you as her leader, her equal, or as a subordinate? How you answer these 2 questions will make a vast difference in how to approach the behaviors. If she trusts you & sees you as a leader, she will let you take a treat/food/toy from her relatively easily. If she doesn't, she may growl, snarl, etc. If she's growling, etc. read Leonberger's thread about Kuma correcting him and the process of establishing leadership. Hand feeding may become your friend - I had to do this with Jazz.
2. Does Tsuki let you hold her? This was key with Jazz as I had to remove her from the situation (often). Giving her height above the other dog made her feel more secure. I hold Jazz when entering new areas where there are other dogs, even dogs that she has been getting to know for almost a year (Niko, Sasha & Lucy, for example). Jazz still growls at them, but for the most part, it's her grumbly growl that just means leave me alone for a few minutes. When I went to Rachael's house with Jazz, I held her, talked to her, and treated her. She had been dosed an hour earlier with melatonin. This has helped overcome her initial/automatic reaction. Finally, I sat her down and stayed close to her. Niko & Sasha came close got a growl and backed away. Thankfully, both of them are savvy enough to know that Jazz just needs a little bit more time.
When I was first taking Jazz to pet stores - which are unbelievably overwhelming to a dog, I held her the entire time. Then, we went to me holding her, sitting her down, giving her a few moments, picking her up. Now, she walks in just fine without a problem. There's a fine line between comforting your dog and coddling/reinforcing the wrong behavior. Knowing your dog is how you figure it out.
3. Accept the fact that Tsuki may not like Ricky. There are some people in this world that no matter how hard I try, I just don't like them. I can tolerate them (usually), but I don't want to have to sit and make small talk with them. Your dog will probably never like all dogs. Be happy & ecstatic when you find the dog that Tsuki doesn't growl at the first moment you meet. Praise Tsuki everytime there is a good interaction. She needs to know that you want her to be friendly to other dogs and it is worth her while (treats) to do so.
4. Have you done any kind of training with Tsuki? I know how it is with finances, but this can be worth it's weight in gold. Having Jazz learn to focus on me was invaluable. When she gets in to a growling, even snarling mode - I can redirect by calling her name and saying "focus". 7 out of 10 times this works, which with Jazz is a success. Having a harness on her that I can pick her up without stepping inbetween the dogs works the rest of the time. I have not tried clicker training and I want to - I've got to pick up a book (Romi, what was the one you recommended?) and do some studying. The training classes can also help with socialization. Having time where your dog is around other dogs and people, but not having to interact with them, can help desensitize that first reaction.
If you would let me know your answers on these and I'll try to help out more.
As for dogs being more fulfilled when they interact with other dogs, I think you're probably right. But, and this is a BIG but, forcing a dog to be social when they aren't comfortable is far worse than leading a solitary life. She will be far happier being a loner than she will be if you push her boundaries and try to make her into something she's not. A dog being anti-social is just like a human being anti-social. They are lacking in some skill they should have learned at an earlier stage in development and forcing them to be in situations where they have to use the skill they don't have is counter productive. It adds to stress and discomfort and destroys trust.
You rescued Tsuki, so you committed yourself to taking on all the baggage that may come with that---an anti-social dog being one of those things. Its probably the case that she missed out on some crucial socialization and its likely she will never fully overcome that and be the happy social dog you are talking about. Even if she does, it is going to take a LOT of hard work on both your parts. I think you'd both be better served if you recalibrate your expectations for her. Set yourself modest goals like Jen suggested. Work toward her being tolerant of other dogs before you even think about her enjoying their company.
Dorothy vanished
Brandon is going away to asia for 3 weeks
I am getting pretty sad too.
Bringing in a behaviorist or trainer even for one hour or two for a consultation is worth the money without laying out a ton of cash. You can then decide how you want break up the behavior sessions. I know plenty of places that allow pay as you go.
Look on http://www.trulydogfriendly.com/blog/?page_id=4 for a list of trainers.
Forcing a situations between dogs is never a good idea. Get some training help, even if you think you have it covered is a good idea. There is no substitute for good hands on advice, more than we can give you through mere chat!
Snf
Click to calm is a good book to assist with training reactive dogs. So are others mentioned on above. Do a search on this forum for "Books" and it will bring up some other authors and titles too.
Many times, it seems like we've taken a giant step forward and then we go tumbling backward. I keep reminding myself that Jazz is better today than she was yesterday and she'll be better tomorrow than today. When I compare the difference from a year ago, it's truly remarkable.
I apologize for the length of my comments, but it's tough to put this into smaller bites for me.
Health is the first thing you have to look at when random behavior such as aggression occurs. Therefore, you may need to monitor it and regulate her meds depending on what was prescribed. Talk to your vet. Also keep tabs on the thyroid. Since Tsuki has immunity issues this is one area the may be affected as well as she matures and ages.
Snf