Switched to Orijen...
So I ordered Orijen Adult Food and Puppy Food from K9cuisine...and Portia and Ninja have been on it for about 2 weeks now. When I was making the transition with the old food and the new food, I noticed they both would just pick out the old food and only eat the new food. After 3 days of them doing that, I just gave them all new food because it was pointless to mix.
Anyway, I also got the Nature's Variety Prairie Beef Formula Canned Food. I started mixing this with their food as well. I give Portia (35lbs) 1 cup kibble + 1/4 canned and I give Ninja (15lbs) 1/3 kibble + 1/4 canned twice a day. Before Portia would only eat when we were around...and she's kind of on the thin side...so I thought the canned food would make her eat more as well as the Orijen food. Now she eats right when i put her bowl down and eats it all!
Well now the reason why I made this discussion...THE FARTS ARE KILLING ME!!! I made a comment about Portia's Farting...and some of you said it was probably the grain in her diet...so I have switched her...but now Ninja and Portia has far more smelly farts then ever!!! Is this because they are still adjusting to the new diet?? If so....how long is it going to last for?!!?! lol. And its not like its once a day....I say they fart at LEAST 3-5 times a day. Portia sleeps on our bed too so IM DYING AT NIGHT WHEN SHE SLEEPS!!! (she mostly farts when shes sleeping)
Anyways, just wanted to know if this is normal or maybe something might be wrong with them? Im taking Portia in next week to get her 3 years rabies and bordatella shot, but i don't think vet's were really educated on diets for dogs?
Sorry guys, just needed to let it out...IT SMELLS SOOOOOO BAD you don't even know!
Anyway, I also got the Nature's Variety Prairie Beef Formula Canned Food. I started mixing this with their food as well. I give Portia (35lbs) 1 cup kibble + 1/4 canned and I give Ninja (15lbs) 1/3 kibble + 1/4 canned twice a day. Before Portia would only eat when we were around...and she's kind of on the thin side...so I thought the canned food would make her eat more as well as the Orijen food. Now she eats right when i put her bowl down and eats it all!
Well now the reason why I made this discussion...THE FARTS ARE KILLING ME!!! I made a comment about Portia's Farting...and some of you said it was probably the grain in her diet...so I have switched her...but now Ninja and Portia has far more smelly farts then ever!!! Is this because they are still adjusting to the new diet?? If so....how long is it going to last for?!!?! lol. And its not like its once a day....I say they fart at LEAST 3-5 times a day. Portia sleeps on our bed too so IM DYING AT NIGHT WHEN SHE SLEEPS!!! (she mostly farts when shes sleeping)
Anyways, just wanted to know if this is normal or maybe something might be wrong with them? Im taking Portia in next week to get her 3 years rabies and bordatella shot, but i don't think vet's were really educated on diets for dogs?
Sorry guys, just needed to let it out...IT SMELLS SOOOOOO BAD you don't even know!
Comments
:-)
Sounds familiar :-) You are right, this happens when they don't digest the food completely, so it rots in the large intestines and generates gases.
Try something like this if you are not already giving them probiotics. I don't give it all the time, only when things seem to be out of balance. When Rem was a pup and had an upset stomach, giving him good quality yogurt worked like magic.
I agree with the others - you should add a probiotic, it helped reduce our dogs gas. Also you can put a big rock in the bowl to slow down their eating.
We give all our pups Probiotics at dinner w/ or w/o gas. They get it every day. We give the larger and older dogs this:
http://www.nutritionnow.com/PB8.htm
We give the puppies a kids Probiotic - I dunno what kind tho, I'll have to ask Jen.
side note - you may want to think about taking a Probiotic too - it's good for you. :c)
Yesterday I picked up Nemo's first bag of Orijen. I threw him half a hand ful when I was mixing it in with the rest of his EVO and he ate it up, and seemed to enjoy it this morning when he ate it. He pushed around his food bowl sniffing the floor, making sure he didn't miss anything but this is really nothing unusual for him.
I purchased the fish-based formula. Nice packaging, smells good and fresh.
-Brandon
Hello Everyone !!!
I'm John ... father to Portia and Ninja, and a pain-in-the-butt for Romi.
Romi ... don't do it, don't change their food ! I don't think we could survive a food change again.
I was dropping by to say "HI" to everyone and to thank everyone for being so hospitable towards us and our new family. This is by far the most helpful forum that I have been apart of, and I've been a part of a whole lot of forums (for work).
So, to all of you (wherever you may be) take care and have yourselves a fantastic weekend !!!
Best Regards,
John
hehehe when we got Kiba (who was eating Orijen when he was with ikon kennel)...we switched Shinobi to Orijen...and he had quite stinky farts as well, which was weird b/c he never used to fart before. But strangely, Kiba stopped eating the Orijen. So we've changed to Great Life. It's a Nevada-based company, and is "holistic kibble covered with raw food" (i sound like an advertisement)...but both Shinobi and Kiba love it...and...NO FARTS - well none that we could smell or hear
How much food do you puppies eat? We've been trying to feed him about 2 cups a day...and we're lucky if he finishes 1 cup. He's totally healthy according to our vet, and is about 15 pounds now, but he just doesn't eat much. Is this just a puppy thing?
Hi John, thanx for stopping by - I'm glad the forum has worked out well for you!
Our dogs have very little gas when eating Orijen and digestive enzymes - we have had a problem w/ gas when we fed a few other food, even w/ digestive enzymes and probiotics... but we have no issues w/ Orijen. I guess each dog is different!
On a sad note...
Ninja is starting to worry me. While we were at the vet..it was his turn to get on the table and get checked out. When the vet approached him he started growling. I had to pick him up and put him on the table. The vet was checking everything and all of a sudden his went into a spaz and started yelping like he just got hit by a car or something. The vet quickly picked him up and started petting him and talking to him. He stopped crying and started POOPING! Pooping while the vet was holding him! My vet said "see, this means he's frightened...he just had an anxiety attack" I was blown away by Ninja's reaction...Well we went on with the exam and vet said he had ear mites so he took Ninja to the back to clean out his ears. He came back and said "I need to ask you some questions about Ninja" So I was all for it. He asked where I had gotten him from...what age I got him...If I knew anything from his background, that type of stuff. After all said and done he said "Basically, something happened to your puppy when he was a baby. Puppies shouldn't know how to growl or be afraid of people. They haven't been alive long enough to even know what is bad or good yet. I think a Human might have abused him before you received him or something with a Human happened that has made him think People are bad." I wanted to cry! But he said "He is not an aggressive dog...I can tell because if he was, I would have been bit already...even now...im holding him..im not restraining him...his body is limp" (the vet was holding him while we were talking) Anyways, he told me I need to take him everywhere I go...He needs to get used to people and know that they aren't out to hurt him. And he told me if people ask to pet him say NO, DON'T TOUCH HIM. He isn't ready for people to just come up and invade his space. He needs time to learn that people aren't bad. I feel so mislead by my breeder now. He said he was well socialized and seem to know so much about the breed. I don't know what to do. I emailed the breeder to get any information on Ninja's life before I received him and if he knows why Ninja is so afraid of People...but im pretty sure hes just going to say that he was fine when he left so it must be something im doing to him. blah. I take him out to petsmart or coffee shops like once a week and when we take them for a walk we always see other people walking their dogs...I guess it never occured to me why Ninja would always hide behind me or try to run away. I guess I just thought he was still adjusting to the new environment. Anyways...we'll see how everything goes...Obedience classes start on the 15th...so I hope that helps.
wow - that is an extremely hectic vet visit. I'm sorry it went that way.
I think your vet is mostly right, I'm not sure I agree with his view on the growling and puppies not knowing how to growl, or what to growl at... but never the less he is dead-on about what to do - socialize him! A lot!
I think he also may be right about the breeder - it sounds like you may have gotten a fearful dog, I'm not sure if its from abuse or not, it could be genetic. If a breeder doesn't focus on selectively breeding for temperament the puppies produce may be aggressive or fearful (and other things) - this could be a trait that was passed to him from years of breeding dogs with poor temperaments.
Maui is just like this - poorly breed, and VERY fearful. We did EVERYTHING we could to socialize him, took him everywhere and did training - I mean everything. Then he got attacked a dog park and that was it. He was fearful of dogs from that point forward - he bites any dog he doesn't know (and some he does know). He has even bitten me before.
The thing with Shibas (and most Japanese breeds) is they are very sensitive. Shibas easily develop fears of things, and they hold on to those fears.
The biggest mistake we made with Maui and his fears was reinforcing them - when he seems frightened we picked him up and coddled him - this only made him think that being fearful was the correct way to respond. The very best thing you can do for your Shiba is to ignore his fears, if he starts to look like he is fearful of something, redirect his attention to a toy or have him sit - just make him do something other than freak out. Do NOT pet him and tell him "its ok" or give him a treat, or hold him - or even make eye contact... these are all things your dog will feel is reinforcement of what he is doing at that moment.
Anyway, I kinda started rambling there... I just had flash backs of Maui and I know how hard it can be. So really, if you learn ANYTHING from me, please learn not to reinforce his fears - its so important. We basically ruined Maui by reinforcing his fears - he was our first pup and no one told us this golden rule.
I have always had rescue dogs. In fact my shikoku this spring will be my only non-rescue ever. That being said I have sadly seen my fair share of terrified dogs. Take little Ninja EVERYWHERE. When I rescued Moto, he had been crated 12 to 16 hours a day for the first 8 months of his life. I literally wouldn't leave my house without him for the first few months. I only ate in restaurants that had outdoor seating. It did two things. It made him comfortable with the idea of people being around, and even being awesome (he is the Belle of the ball now), and two it showed him that I would always keep him safe.
You are probably right that the breeder will not admit to anything. It is hard to imagine that your baby could know anything other than love and warmth and safety. But he is safe now. Take him out EVERYWHERE EVERYDAY. It will be good for both of you.
This is what I wrote to him first:
Hi Mark,
I went to the vet today and Ninja was very very uncomfortable. When the vet was checking him out, he started yelping and even pooped while the vet was carrying him. Even when we invite people over or go out to places Ninja is never very eager to meet people...he even growls sometimes. At such a young age, he is so scared of people and growling at them, it seems as if something might have happen to him while he was young??? Did anything ever happen to him to make him fear people so much? I mean when I see other puppies they are always coming up to me and jumping all over me in excitement. Ninja is the only puppy i've met that is not. Did you not socialize him at all? Im not trying to place the blame on you or intend to return Ninja for any reason. But when I first got him, I assumed it was because everything is new and he needs time to adjust. I would expect him to be comfortable by now...its been 1 month. I would just like to know what might have happened to him. Did you breed him yourself? Or was he from a different breeder? If he is from a different breeder, it would be much help if you can provide a phone number or email address so I can ask about Ninja's past before I received him. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Knowing the source of the problem always helps solve the problem. Hope to hear from you soon.
And this is what he responded with: (the breeder called him KEETA before I renamed him)
Hi Romi - I raised Keeta, his papers show me as the breeder and that is trueful - i even raised his mother. He was very socialized and i still have his sister. Sometimes Shiba's don't adjust well due to their temperments. If you want to return him i will take him back if you will pay the airfare and i will also return what you payed for him. Have you tried making him spend time on your lap and with other people? One thing you shouldnt do is discipline him to harshly - it will only make him more determinded and afraid.
PS He has never ever been treated in any cruel way. His father is shy, but i bought him when he was two, so i just figured he had not been handled much. He is very friendly with me now but it took time.
Again i am so sorry.
Mark
So from what he said, im guessing that brad is right and it must have been a trait passed down. I can't return Ninja! Is this breeder on crack??...I specified that I wasn't trying to place the blame or intend on returning Ninja...oh well. Well I guess Ninja's father was shy...he didn't really say anything about the mother though...What did he mean by "One think you shouldn't do it discipline him too harshly" ?? Well I guess I'll have to take him out everyday somewhere...A storm just hit and its raining her now...Maybe ill just take him to Petsmart tomorrow or something. Thanks for all the help guys..im still a little bummed...but i hope everything works out okay.
Jessica - How long did it take Moto to get comfortable? And how old was Moto when you got him? Ninja will turn 5 months on the 13th. I hope its not too late for his personality to change (not change, but i guess get used to people and not be so fearful.) My vet was saying something about building his confidence...and obedience classes is a good start. Is there any other things I can do to help boost his confidence? What do you think of the suggestion the breeder made about having Ninja sit on my lap while I have guests over?
Brad - I think I have been reinforcing his fears unconciously. I will work on that...everytime Ninja gets scared or starts to growl, I usually pet him and say "its ok, don't be scared" and once he loses the tension i say "good boy" . I figured it was my way to make him feel safe and calm. Ninja seems good with other dogs...its just people. He'll go sniff other dogs, but no way in hell will he go up to a stranger and sniff them.
I think that's a pretty honest and good response from your breeder. He is willing to take action and not just dodge you or try to place blame on you - that respectable.
I think what he meant by disciplining him harshly is basically don't raise your voice and yell at your dog if he does something wrong, also don't smack him or anything like that (not that I think you would). The best way to train these breeds is w/ positive reinforcement.
Its VERY easy to reinforce a behavior like fear without even meaning too - with Maui, when he is freaked from a thunder storm or something, if I even make eye contact with him it escalates his fear to the point that he craps himself. Its amazing that something as small as making eye contact is that reinforcing to him - but it is. Shibas LOVE attention, even negative attention, that is why they are such trouble makers.
Training will really help him - once you do obedience try something like agility will really boost his confidence. With dogs, boosting confidence is kinda easy - have them do something and then reward them with praise and treats. If you want to give him love have him sit or something then give him all the love you want. Follow the nothing in life is free rule.
You have figured all this out early enough - so no worries, now you know what needs to be done and you can help him with it. Think of it as rehabilitation for him - he will be ok.
There was a really great article in "The Whole Dog Journal" on stress - and signs of stress - let me try to find it for you...
----
side note - Hilo is also the product of poor breeding, he is rather fearful too. we learned from Maui and have worked with him in the same way Jessica and I have mentioned and he is doing very well...
Also, we have talked with the breeder and have had the option to return Hilo too... but how could we do that (just like you)??? I mean you grow so close to them, how could you just return them like a defective product or something. I get it if it was a 100% breeding purchase (tho it would still be hard), but if its a pet it seems really unrealistic (and cruel).
well I can't find my copy of the article - but here is a link to where you can purchase it... might be worth the $ for you (I think its $10):
http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/9_6/features/Dog_Behavior_15811-1.html
Brad - I use the form...no word document...
I have slightly different advice. I have been told, and have read, that a puppy's key socialization period is between 2 and 4 months - as this is when they are most open to new things. This is when it is the most important to get the puppy to meet new people, different situations, other (known to you and healthy, well behaved) dogs. It sounds like you got Ninja just before he turned 4 months. After this period the puppy goes in to a more aware phase...not everything is your friend, strange new things can be scary, etc. It is entirely possible that your breeder did "socialize" the puppy...whether that means with people inside the house, or new people in the house could depend. It is definitely important to continue intense socialization, now, and as much as you can while your puppy grows. The obedience classes should help with meeting new dogs and new situations. If you puppy sees the same people, goes out to the same places, even if it's not every day (or close to that), they are no longer strange. The important thing is new/different/unusual. The more things you can accustom your puppy to as a puppy, the better it should handle stressful and new situations as an adult. Also, the puppy meeting people while being held is a very different experience than the puppy meeting people from the ground.
When it comes to strangers on the street, I have read that carrying treats (the tasty ones) and having stangers give your puppy a treat (1st by tossing them gently to him, then as he gets better being close to them, feeding to them - if he sits and accepts the treat nicely) is a good way for the pup to associate strangers with good things. Also, when it comes to comforting the dog, it is ok to pet them, lay a soothing hand on the back, etc, but do not give encouraging words, or "don't be scared baby, it's ok, you're a good boy, etc". That can encourage the uneasy behavior. Usually if I take the dog to the vet, or some place they are uncomfortable, I keep them in control on the leash, don't let them run all over the place (around you), and if you are sitting, try to get the puppy to sit. I don't know if this is making sense...obedience class should give you lots of ideas though. Just know that your dog doesn't have to love, or even like other people - I mean, it's nice, but it doesn't always seem to be the nature of the Japanese dog. It just has to tolerate other people. It has to behave, and not show aggression - it is allowed to ignore them, still allowing contact.
We correct Sora, but it is usually a "No" if she is climbing the fence, or a quick, short tug on the scruff. Usually the 1st couple of times we tell her to stop, we do the scruff thing, she steps back, looks up at us, and we get the "excuuuse me?" expression. This repeats a few times before she gives up and goes on to something else.
I have found with puppies that ~1lb/week is pretty normal while they're young, then it slows down as they get around 6 months, depending on the adult size.
The problem with treats and prizes is that, you should do it in right moment - with bad timing you coudl easily reinforce the bad behaviour (because dog connect two thigs I'm affraid I've got treat.
There is good method to work with shibas - redirecting reaction from fear to something else. Usually a toy (ball on the string makes wonders
Romi, in regards to how long with Moto, we rescued him at approximately 8 months old. He was a bit of a nervous Nelly when we got him. He never really displayed much aggression just hid at first. Like I said, I took him everywhere I went. He was never left alone for more than a couple hours. I hired baby sitters for the first few months just so he had pretty much constant human contact.
I wanted to give you a heads up too, Ninja probably still has his baby teeth. When he starts to lose his baby teeth, he will likely start chewing A LOT! By yourself some Bitter Apple or equally yucky thing to spray on stuff you don't want him to chew. Just thought I would warn you, because it will likely happen soon. Moto was a big time chewer!
Everyone is giving you solid advice. Taking him out once a week, really probably is not enough. You are a new mama, and your baby needs tons of attention so he can feel safe, and secure that you will protect him. Give him lots of love and patience and you will see positive results, especially when all of that is reinforced with some solid obedience training.
OK, Im a little late.
Ditto on all said. and before I forget...the chewing will come!
Sasha (non-jap pup) is a rescue and is a mess. She was unsocialized, used as a bait dog and no positive human interaction until she was about a year. She is approx 3 now. We got her from a foster mom that had her for a year. She is petrified of everything. It is VERY hard to not try and comfort her. It is so natural for us as humans. I do overly enforce positive behavior and her gaining courage. After having her over a year she now will sneak up on people and lick their hands when they are not looking. She is starting to venture out more. It is very important to be confident yourself. I truly think that your emotions travel down the leash and the pup senses it. Consistency is so important. We also bring Sasha to the same places such as pet stores, daycare (going in and visiting), dog parks and friends houses. She has gained a lot of confidence. It is up to you to let Ninja know YOU are taking control and he does not need to worry. If you worry about him and stress he will think he needs to take charge and he will get even more stressed out. Sasha is more calm with hubby, she is more on guard when it is just me. I cant wait until we get the akita because i think a pup will give her confidence and he will be a good even keel between the 2 of our monsters. Niko is good at feeding into Sasha's fears but huffing to get her going. We also have learned what will cause a reaction in her. When we are driving and someone walks by we know that will cause a reaction so we nip it in the butt before it even become an issue. We put a leash on her when someone comes over so she knows we are in charge and that she doesnt need to worry.
Im still sick and drugged up so this is all I got for now! Gonna go take a nap!
Thanks for the info guys...I really appreciate it. The vet visit yesterday kind of just got me all uneasy for a bit. Just hearing him scream and poop I was kind of in shock...my vet had to keep assuring me he's fine, and he's not hurt. Blah! The thing with the treat thing doesn't work. I tried it at home, I gave Ninja a treat and then I gave my friend a treat to give to him and he didn't come close, so my friend tossed it by him and he just sniffed it and walked away. I think he really does have anxiety when it comes to people. Like the breeder said, he was well socialized...I don't understand why he is so afraid of people now. I even tried letting my friend give Ninja his dinner once to see if he would eat it and he just ran away and then once I touched the bowl and put it down, he started eating. Do you think its a trust issue? Cuz it seems as if he is always looking at me to see if whats happening is ok or not. Like he is waiting for me to say "its ok" or "no"...
I work from 9:30-6 mon-fri and 10-2 on saturdays...John works from 9-5 mon-fri and gets weekends off. So the dogs are by themselves for about 8 hours a day. I keep them in my bedroom for now...(im waiting for a gate i ordered online to block off a hallway) we usually take them for a walk when we get home and then again later in the night. I think they just sleep all day...we got monday and tuesday off of this week to observe the holiday and since we were home all day i think they got worn out because they weren't used to it. And on the weekends if we aren't doing anything they just sleep for most of the time and get active at night.
The vet said Ninja still had all of his baby teeth...Im going to go to petsmart later on today to get some k9advantix and some more chew toys. We just moved into our house about a year ago...so we never really got a lot of furniture...leather couches and a TV in the living room...dining table in the dining room and thats about it. The dining table and chairs are wood though...I hope he doesn't start chewing on it.
Well im going to stay positive and do my best to take him out and experience new things. I CAN DO THIS!!!
Sasha is finally taking treats from other people which is a shock!!!! They didnt work for her either (and she is very food motivated). Now people can crouch down hold their hand way out and look away and she will take it from most people. I thought I was going to poop on myself (sorry had to make a funny) when she actually did this. It will be hard to try and get people to leave him alone. People are very attracted to Shiba's because they are different. This is why going to dog friendly places will help because people "should" understand to ask to pet and how to respect an owners decisions.
Niko was an ankle biter. Literally. My pants have been shredded. She went through an impossible stage but I think part of it was getting her too young (6 weeks). Dont leave toys everywhere because they tend to think anything they find is a toy then and fair game.
My table legs on my coffee table, end tables (all family antiques), as well as my dining room table and all 8 chairs are decimated. He even tried chewing on my wrought iron chairs.
Well, we went to Petco and got K9Advantix for Portia and Advantage for Ninja (they didn't have k9advantix for Ninja's weight range). There weren't many people there, but he seemed very curious of all the stuff in the store. We then headed to Petsmart...same thing...not many people but he was being curious. A lady came up to us and asked if she could pet our dogs and John said "you can pet the boxer, but we're in the process of socializing the puppy" and she responded with "I understand, im still trying to socialize my dogs and they're 4 years old!" she pet Portia for a bit and walked away. Ninja of course just looked the other way when she was petting Portia...but he didn't growl or try to hide. After petsmart, we decided to get some starbucks. So we went there and sat in the outside seating area. Not many people were there either...but its next to the street and some people were walking by. Ninja seemed very alert and would look at every car or person that went by. No aggression though! So i guess it was a pretty good night..slowly but surely! They are both passed out now. Here are some pics that I took tonight...not as good as brandons...but i tried!
Ninja’s hiding spot under our old tv stand.
Portia and Ninja
Portia sleeping…
Ninja up close
Ninja sitting
Me, Ninja, and Portia posing.
Ninja and Portia
Portia with John’s legs.
Portia cuddling with John
Me and Ninja in baby position and Portia.
John and Ninja sleeping...I think this was the first time Ninja cuddled.