The Puppies Have Been Born!
Well I recieved the call I have been waiting on for what seems like forever! (Its really only been like 4 months & I know I am lucky that that is all I needed to wait i.e. poor sangmort :-( )
The puppies have been born!
Sanshou Shiba's have had two litters and I have been offered a puppy.
Litter 1
Two Males & Three Females
All Reds
Litter 2
Two Females Both Reds
One was born with no tail.
So now I would like opinions. I have been debating whether or not to go with a female or a male, I bond best with males and I tend to like male dogs better however Boo is a male and I am told having a male and a female is better than two males. Also If I am to get a female, I am attracted to the one without a tale. I don't know why but I am, I think its because it makes her unique.
The breeder says that he has never had a puppy born without a tail and that he has heard that they often have health problems later in life. Does anyone know of a Shiba without a tail? Are they healthy, I am willing to take a pup if its predestined to have health problems, Id just kind of like forewarning.
So my questions do males or females tend to bond with there human better and should I worry about bringing home a male pup with my male (super friendly and social) pit.
And should I worry about a pup without a tail?
The puppies have been born!
Sanshou Shiba's have had two litters and I have been offered a puppy.
Litter 1
Two Males & Three Females
All Reds
Litter 2
Two Females Both Reds
One was born with no tail.
So now I would like opinions. I have been debating whether or not to go with a female or a male, I bond best with males and I tend to like male dogs better however Boo is a male and I am told having a male and a female is better than two males. Also If I am to get a female, I am attracted to the one without a tale. I don't know why but I am, I think its because it makes her unique.
The breeder says that he has never had a puppy born without a tail and that he has heard that they often have health problems later in life. Does anyone know of a Shiba without a tail? Are they healthy, I am willing to take a pup if its predestined to have health problems, Id just kind of like forewarning.
So my questions do males or females tend to bond with there human better and should I worry about bringing home a male pup with my male (super friendly and social) pit.
And should I worry about a pup without a tail?
Comments
In general, Shibas tend to do MUCH better in male-female pairs. I know its been said a million times, but every dog really is unique and there are a lot out there that break that rule. Joey is like that. He's never met another dog he didn't like, male or female. If you are raising it from a puppy, it will likely do just fine with another male. Although you may have to be *extra* vigilant when it gets close to maturity and goes though its boundary testing phase.
As for worrying about the pup without a tail...I would think twice if it were me. I've got one dog with all sorts of health problems and the emotional roller coaster of it is about all I can take. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't trade Lucy for any amount of money (or really anything in general). BUT, if I had known the heart ache I would go through ahead of time, I can't say for sure I would have brought Lucy home. That being said, every dog deserves a loving and committed home. It is hard enough to find healthy and well behaved dogs those homes, so if you are willing to go the extra mile for a dog that may have special needs, then kudos to you. I say do it.
You MUST post pictures when you have them. :-)
I would not take on a pup that could have such severe problems. Great on you if you are willing to care for a needy dog, but keep in mind that it will cost you thousands of dollars extra and likely a lot of heartache. On the same note, I would not pick the other pup from that litter either, for the same reasons. There is obviously a huge fault in those genetics. When I go to a breeder, my first priority is health of the pups.
In general, dogs tend to get along better in opposite sex pairs. This is usually most important in choosing an additional adult dog, so adding a male puppy probably wouldn't be much different than choosing a female. As Dave said, it varies hugely on individual personalities. I would take Boo over to the litter and let him pick one, if the breeder didn't mind.
Just as Dave and Kyla has said, health issues can be a major thing, and your maternal instincts are telling you to take the unusual one. But, just because the tail is missing doesn't definitely mean that the dog will be sickly, look at people who have deformed limbs. Just because you get a "complete" puppy does guarantee being healthy, we got Tikaani and he wound up getting sick 2 days after we got him. First week of having him and he cost us almost $2000. I say if you are considering the tailless wonder, see if the breeder can get a special vet chick to see what might occur
I think if Boo is fine with other males he'll be fine with a male puppy, though it might be easier to have a male / female pair, I can't foresee any real issues in the future so long as they are socialized properly & you don't give Boo a reason to feel jealous
I'd say go with your gut, but ask about each pup's personality more than their gender. Remember, you want a pup whose personality will mix well with Boo as well!
I wont comment about the poor babe with no tail, as I think this is a personal decision that you need to make...
Have fun picking your pup...it must be such an amazing feeling!
but my Tsuki was the mutt and had large hernias as a young pup, and she has a genetic dental structure deformity that has and will continue to cost us a pretty penny, not to mention her LP and other structural issues...
but when I went to that barn, and I saw that pathetic little cream pup, picked her up to put an ID collar on her that was it, my maternal instincts (? I guess) went berserk, I took her home and now she's my dog. I don't regret it, but I do tell people looking at similar puppies to really think about it in the long term - if you feel you can care for this dog for the life of the dog regardless of what may happen during their growth or when they become older - then go for it, the dog will be lucky to have found you! Compassion is a powerful force, and a beautiful force, but make sure you consider all the issues as well.
The breeders had very high hopes for this breeding its from two of their best dogs, and they are very upset by this. The dogs have undergone all of the usual tests and both did very well in the show ring as did both of their parents. The tailless pup is definitely a very disappointing surprise. Their vet said it could have been a complete fluke or could be a genetic defect. He will check out the pup when its older to see. They typically do not repeat breeding's so I do not think they will do this match again although they have not told me so.
I will post pics as soon as I get them.
[by selling i mean taking money in exchange for that pup]
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I guess she found only one other Shiba breeder who has had this happen and she was told that it was not genetic but that it was a complete fluke. Like a person being born with a missing or an underdeveloped arm or leg. She will be watching the pup for the next few months to see how its quality of life will be and if it is good and the vet give her the ok she will hopefully be looking for a home in a few months. However this is only opinion, know one will ever know if it is genetic or not.
I will not be taking her because I would like a boy, that is really the only reason that I have decided not to take her.
I find this breeders statement rather ill informed when she mentions "she found only one other Shiba breeder who has had this happen and she was told that it was not genetic but that it was a complete fluke."
Not genetic, how can anyone proclaim that unless the tail was bitten off or caught in a car door"....what else would you call it? .... So it's not a genetic defect its a genetic specialty?? (LOL)
I'd think twice about obtaining a dog from them for all the reasons Dave and others have stated. It is your call but go in with your eyes wide open. There are so many nice healthy dogs out there that need a home, consider carefully and don't go via impulse because they are so darned cute!
Good luck
Snf
This is likely to be a fluke in the embryonic development as shibas are a tailed breed. It could be the pup had a tail during it's developement but that it was reabsorbed (programmed cell death) or the umbilical cord caused an amputation. And no one will ever be able to know for sure, unless more tail-less pups start popping up all of a sudden. Obviously this pup should not be bred. A repeat breeding may help determine if this was just a random flaw or something actually popping up in her lines, but I doubt it. Best of luck with your new pup, wherever he comes from. You have selected some very thourough breeders to chose among.
Snf
“As lack of tail is not bred into to shibas, (short tails are a fault) I would hesitate to call the isolated experience of a shiba pup born completely without a tail a heritable genetic flaw that should be screened for”
---It is hard to say what is a heritable genetic flaw until it is studied in detail. Screening seems impractical in this case since there are so few cases , at least that we know of, and the costs that would be involved probably would be exorbitant unless it was taken under wing as part of research say an official clinical study.
“or that should be a stigma against a particular breeder that does abide by their breed club code of ethics and goes way beyond the call of duty regarding their shibas.”
----The intent was not to stigmatize a breeder only to make those on this list aware that other health issues are a possibility in the whole litter. I can’t say who abides by what standards at this point there are so many breeding Shibas. Again to reiterate it is important to be aware of the health implications when deciding to take on such a pet and or its siblings. Disclosure is a good thing and it is good this breeder was open to explaining their situation.
“The breeder didn't write off her entire program based on what is obviously a mutation in fetal development or a random flaw in the way the DNA was copied.”
No one is implying that an entire breeding program be written off. However, there should be some darn close monitoring of the program and agreed, those pups produced out of this litter should be spayed and neutered . Yes, it could be any number of things, Personally I would be concerned about what caused it. Like Thalidomide issues in humans it is certainly something to consider in terms of toxicology that possibly alters fetal development. IMO "Just a fluke" is not really a valid statement when concentrating on a solid breeding program.
“You have selected some very thourough breeders to chose among.”
--- I urge caution advocating breeders that you have not personally dealt with directly yourself over many years. Although there are many reputable sources out there, there are always a few that slip by the radar. This breeder is not known to be one of those of the negative category, however but it is good to be discrete in who you individually advocate.
The better point is, one has to be vigilant no matter where they decide to purchase, even from quality sources,make decisions wisely based on the circumstances and the particular litter at hand. Sometimes is worth waiting for another litter even from a reputable source.
Snf
If it's due to some developmental problem, and not genetic, then it needs to be looked into. Some environmental factor such as a toxin or something similar. If that's the case then the other pup in the litter was exposed to it as well, and could have mutations that are not evident.
In any case... I wanted to ask Sabrina about Sanshou's "Glitch". I noticed in the pictures that he? held his tail down. I thought it was strange that his tail was down in all the pictures, then I noticed the video:
This pup obviously has something wrong with his back end, it's evident by how he walks and the way his tail just hangs and swings. Is Glitch related to the tailless puppy in any way? If so, there are definitely genetic issues at work.
Glitch and the tailless puppy are not related.
Ken & Lucy are some of the better breeders in Oregon, I had them highly recommended to me from several other breeders in the area along with the Portland Shiba Meetup. The reason that I chose Ken & Lucy was because they could answer every question I could think of. She also took the time to talk with me, where some other breeders made me feel like I was wasting their time. I have had several dog in the past but I have not had a Shiba, I feel that a breeder should do their very best to breed quality dogs however I think it is almost more important that they should help create quality owners to. Ken & Lucy truly care about their dogs, their puppies and their puppies futures. Because of that I have no concern whatsoever about getting a puppy from them.
I brought up the tailless puppy because I to could not find anything on the web about a tailless shiba. Lucy talked to several of her breeder friends and she has only heard of one other instance. So it must be very rare, I was just kind of wondering if anyone knew of this happening with other shiba's. In my opinion, which doesn't count for much, if taillessness was a genetic defect it would happen more often as dogs with the gene would show up from know and again. However it hasn't happened so Im leaning to believe that this was a deformity in the womb which happens in people and animals pretty often. However if it happens again then I will lean towards genetics. Again I do not know much about genetics so I could be very wrong. I think everyone will have their own opinion.
Thank You Everyone this thread is getting very interesting!
Please know that I am not criticizing your choice of breeder. They seem like excellent breeders and I don't doubt that you'll recieve a quality puppy and a lifetime of support from them. However, I do hope that they are investigating the cause of the tailless puppy and not just passing it off because it is "a rare fluke". Whether or not it is genetic, measures to prevent it from happening again should be put in place.
Again, I think the taillessness could easily be genetic as it is obvious that certain breeds of dogs are naturally tailless. There is also a line of Boxers in the UK that have natural docks and litters of Rotties occassionally have tailless pups.