Shikokus and People (and Children)
Hey Guys,
I just recently found (and joined) this forum. And, I have been trying to read up as much as possible about these beautiful dogs. I've googled and wikipedia'ed and everything else'ed Shikokus and can't seem to get any really SOLID information on these dogs. I figured where else to get great info than from owners such as yourselves?
Most sites that talk about Shikoku's mention their over-protective'ness and over aggressiveness. But, as I've read through the threads here, that doesn't seem to be the case. Now, I know, a lot is in the upbringing of the dogs... but, there is certainly something to be said about the breed. So, do you guys find these dogs a little touchy with strangers? Are you afraid to have friends over because of your dog? Even if you are home?
Also, do many of you owners have children? And how are the dogs with them? I do not currently have children... but, hey, you never know what can come in the lifetime of a dog ;). Same questions as above... are you afraid to leave the dog with children with/without supervision?
Finally, and this is the defacto.... These dogs are unbelievably rare. How can there be so few breeders? I am in southern California, and the closest breeder I've found is in Canada. (I've read elsewhere in a post here I don't recall that there is a breeder in the US -- where is that?). And, finally finally (I promise)... is there ANY chance that you'd ever find these dogs in rescue's and pounds? I have always been of the mindset to save a dog's life that may not otherwise have a chance rather than paying (a lot) to have one bred for you.
Sorry for that long-winded first post. I just have a lot of questions. Thanks guys...
I just recently found (and joined) this forum. And, I have been trying to read up as much as possible about these beautiful dogs. I've googled and wikipedia'ed and everything else'ed Shikokus and can't seem to get any really SOLID information on these dogs. I figured where else to get great info than from owners such as yourselves?
Most sites that talk about Shikoku's mention their over-protective'ness and over aggressiveness. But, as I've read through the threads here, that doesn't seem to be the case. Now, I know, a lot is in the upbringing of the dogs... but, there is certainly something to be said about the breed. So, do you guys find these dogs a little touchy with strangers? Are you afraid to have friends over because of your dog? Even if you are home?
Also, do many of you owners have children? And how are the dogs with them? I do not currently have children... but, hey, you never know what can come in the lifetime of a dog ;). Same questions as above... are you afraid to leave the dog with children with/without supervision?
Finally, and this is the defacto.... These dogs are unbelievably rare. How can there be so few breeders? I am in southern California, and the closest breeder I've found is in Canada. (I've read elsewhere in a post here I don't recall that there is a breeder in the US -- where is that?). And, finally finally (I promise)... is there ANY chance that you'd ever find these dogs in rescue's and pounds? I have always been of the mindset to save a dog's life that may not otherwise have a chance rather than paying (a lot) to have one bred for you.
Sorry for that long-winded first post. I just have a lot of questions. Thanks guys...
Comments
I have a shikoku. And the only one I have met is my own, Himiko. I will let others tell you their experiences, but my little girl is precisely the opposite of the above mentioned. She is outwardly friendly with everyone. She plays well with other dogs, although sometimes a bit rough. She can at times be misunderstood in play with other dogs as she growls a lot. But it is just talk. She is a barker at strangers outside, but at soon as she is acknowledged she is all wags, wiggles, and licks.
She lives with my other dog which is a pit bull. I would say my pit bull (Piglet) is slightly better with children. Only in the sense that she understands that they are not dogs, and is therefore a bit more gentle. Miko is very nice to children but a bit confused by babies. But I feel very safe having children in my home.
As far as breeders, there are presently two active breeders in North America. Katja in British Columbia (Akashima Kennels) and Peggy in Ohio (Ikon Kennels). We have dogs from both breeders on the forum and both breeders are also members.
At present, I am very happy to say that the likelihood of finding a shikoku in a rescue is near to impossible (and God willing we would like to keep it that way). Being that shikoku are so rare, most of the owners are on this forum (at least in North America, and some in Europe), because of that if there is a family in need or a dog that needs to be placed, I like to think that we would work to help the family and at the very least do our best to insure that the dog is kept out of the shelter system. This has happened in the past, and the shikoku placed found homes with forum members.
I work with shelter dogs and appreciate your desire to rescue. I grappled a lot with the idea of having a breeder dog. Eventually I decided to get Himiko, I love her and have no regrets. That said she will likely be my only breeder dog, as I come across too many brilliant amazing dogs in the shelters I work.
I hope this answered your questions. At least as best I could.
As far as children, I don't have any. BUT, I have taken him to LOTS of places where there will be lots of kids and he absolutely adores children and is very, very good with them (the youngest were only a few years old). But, when he was a puppy I did socialize him a lot with people and kids and all he was was all kisses. He truly is a lovey personality to everyone.
Like Jessica said, he is a pretty rough player with other dogs and makes a lot of growly noise. Plus he is still intact, so I have to watch who he would play with.
There are only 2 kennels because Shikoku only came to NA in the past decade (around 2004) and before that, they were in HOlland for about a decade (and before than only inside Japan). These are a really special breed and I am really lucky to spend my life with them.
Outside of the standoffishness, I found that most of the information was pretty correct (ie, quiet in house, loyal, obedient, wanting to please, not like a Shiba in temperment).
Yes, Shikoku are rare and there are only two breeders in North America. This follows the fact that they are rare in Japan. Modern Japanese folks aren't always into their folksy, traditional stuff; companion dogs have only been popular for a number of decades and usually western breeds are preferred. Shikoku are felt to be somewhat inappropriate for the tight quarters of city life in Japan so they aren't as popular. That's what I gather from a sample size of one - my mother-in-law who freaked out when she heard I was trying to get a Shikoku!
That's Rakka, who is from these forums.
The thing about the rarity and subsequent expensiveness of Shikoku is that none of them have less than fully-commited owners. People who don't look forward to putting in the time to train the dog and themselves are going to get some other dog. Or they are rich people who are going to send their dog to a trainer, but since Shikoku are not AKC dogs you can't show them in the big dog shows.
FYI, preferring to rescue a pet-shelter dog is a noble and admirable thing. You should be able to find Shiba Inus and American Akitas in shelters if you wanted to go that route.
My wife and I have 2 Shikoku females, both with totally different temperaments. We have also met the majority of the Shikoku in North America.
I can tell you with 100% certainty, as the others have already said, Shikoku LOVE people. I have only met 2 exceptions to this rule and those 2 exceptions were from unfortunate circumstances.
As for children, Ahi LOVES kids, she was socialized with them early on. The only issue with her and kids is her excitement level - she can be kinda crazy. Loa, on the other hand, was not socialized with kids [due to us not having any or being around any]... When she met my sister's kids she was a little spooked at first, but quickly came around and gave them loads of kisses. Loa is a bit standoffish in general when meeting new people, but after a few minutes she is fine with them and kisses them all over. Many on this forum have met Loa and Ahi and can attest to how sweet they are... Like Kuma, Ahi "can be a bit exuberant on initial meeting". <- lol.
Your comments about aggression and protectiveness concerns me... I hope that info isn't out there on the web. I would never call Shikoku "aggressive", imo they are very social creatures. Now, I would call them "reactive", and that is part of their hunting instinct and will hopefully never go away.
Ahi can be protective of her yard and her people, but it is very rare [and usually 100% appropriate] that she shows any reactiveness towards people. Dogs, on the other hand, is a bit different. She plays nicely with most dogs, and LOVES to play rough... but she will NOT tolerate a dog being on our property without an invitation. Loa is the same, tho she is very mellow when compared to Ahi.
In my experience, Shikoku are very sensitive to frustration and anxiety - that is to say they frustrate very easily and become more reactive when subject to higher levels of anxiety - like being kenneled all the time, that will cause high anxiety in a Shikoku and result in a over-reactive dog [<- after owning a slightly under-soclized Ovcharka for a few months now it's hard for me to call a Shikoku "over-reactive". lol!]. What this frustration/anxiety sensativity means to you, as a potential owner, is that you will need to work with your dog to get their energy/anxiety out inorder for them to be an easy pet to own. It's easy to do: walk them, hike them, let them play, train them, run with them - give them a job.
Kuma is a gret example of a Shikoku that works with his owner on obedience on a regular basis and therefore has little anxiety issues.
Also, imho, I would recomend a red sesmae Shikoku for you - they tend to make better "pets" and have a lower drive.
Hope that helps.
PS: If a Shikoku is ever found in a rescue/shelter than this community failed.
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Awesome responses (And awesome video of Rakka -- that pretty much sums up what you all said). So, you definitely did not dispel my desire for a Shikoku -- I just want one more now! This is probably against all etiquette rules... but maybe someone can "whisper" it to me (i'm not even sure what that means...?) but, what IS the price range for these dogs? (I figure I'd waste your guys' time before wasting iKon's time ;) ).
I will look into the Akitas more as well, as they may be much easier to obtain (I don't really want a dog as small as a Shibu). Also, I've found the Korean Jindo to be a very interesting dog. I'll read around more (these forums as well) and see what I come up with.
brada: that is interesting about the color making a difference like that? Just the way they were bred to get that color? Personally, I really love the white/grey/black sesame look. But, all of them are good looking dogs.
Here is a picture of my female shikoku playing with a male shiba inu
I believe the going rate for shikoku is around 3k
cesupro, best of luck to you on your search for you perfect pup. (whatever breed you decide on!)
I knew they were smaller than Akitas... But, I did think they were moderately larger than the Shibas. Still beautiful looking dogs. I don't think the timing is right... unfortunately (monetary reasons.... primarily)... But, I do want one someday... in the coming years. Like, I mentioned, I think right now, I am leaning towards the Jindo. but, that's because of the all the sites saying that Akitas are bad with children, but they said that about Shikokus too. So, I need to read around more.
That being said, we've had relatives visit who made comments about Rakka being "aggressive" or "out of control" after seeing her play with the other dogs. I don't think she did anything wrong - shikokus just tend to make a lot of noise when they play. Even when my dogs have gotten into scuffles, they've never actually injured each other. One person ignorantly said that Rakka "wouldn't last five minutes" in the city because someone would call animal control to take care of that unruly animal. I told them that I take her to the city all the time and she's sweet as can be. Sometimes I jokingly tell her to "guard the car" while I go into a store - jokingly because if someone stole the car, she'd just hop up in the passenger seat and enjoy the ride, lol. We had some guys stacking bags of wood pellets into the back of our station wagon while Rakka was also in the back and she just sat quietly and looked at them. She's an alert watchdog at home - announcing people's arrival and watching everything that goes on, but she's far from aggressive. As others have said about their dogs, she is exuberant when greeting people, so she can intimidate people who are afraid of dogs, even though she is friendly. She is even quite gentle when jumping up to greet people and often will jump up and not even touch the person.
I think people assume that they will act a certain way because of their wolfish appearance or because they are a primitive hunting breed. I've heard people describe her as "huge", too, even though she only weighs 35 pounds. I think it's just psychological. Some people are afraid of dogs that look like that so they remember a big scary dog. I've met labs that will practically break your nose trying to greet you and are twice as big and people are less afraid of them.
If I were asked which of our dogs I would trust most with a child I would pick our female Akita first over all the rest.
Honestly, I would be more concerned with a Jindo around children before I would worry about an Akita [assuming both are well socialized with children]. Jindo are neat dogs, and are very similar in temperament to Kai and Shikoku, but they are not [as] selectively bred for stable temperments as Akita are. The temperament of an Akita is one of their strongest qualities.
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People who own Japanese and other primitive dogs will say that they "are not for the inexperienced dog owner." Meaning not only do you have to understand the commitment you must make to training the dog, you have to know you are able to make a proper dog - human bond, which includes things like, being able to read a dog's expression to tell what the dog is feeling, understanding how a dog vibes off of you and how you are, etc. I read one thing that an Akita owner wrote about how their dog would always growl at the guy's mother in law, because though he thought he was being outwardly civil and welcoming to the woman, he actually disliked her, and that's all the dog could get from him, was that this person was not a friend of the pack.
Anyway the truth to a dog breed being "good with kids" or "not good with kids" seems to be very complex. It did not put me off my plans to bring a Nihonken into my family though most of my dog experience has been with Shelties. I'm just prepared to put a lot of time and effort into training the dog, making sure he gets to experience a lot of different environments positively in his first year, making sure he gets to meet and play with children of all ages, etc.
I can only compare based on my experiences and from other owners/handlers/breeders experiences (what they tell me).
Brad - How would you rate the reactivity level of Akita, Kai, Shiba and Shikoku? Most sites that talk about Shikoku's mention their over-protective'ness and over aggressiveness. But, as I've read through the threads here, that doesn't seem to be the case. Now, I know, a lot is in the upbringing of the dogs... but, there is certainly something to be said about the breed. So, do you guys find these dogs a little touchy with strangers? Are you afraid to have friends over because of your dog? Even if you are home?
- I saw a little "possessiveness" from my male as a pup, but I corrected this. I don't worry about him hurting anyone. He does like to jump though, so I have to let people know he will do so, lol. If they don't like it...they can tell him to sit and give him a treat. I'm comfortable that Shoushuu will not bite if strange people run up and hug his face Also, do many of you owners have children? And how are the dogs with them? I do not currently have children... but, hey, you never know what can come in the lifetime of a dog
- Not yet.
- They are fine with kids.
- Nope, so long as I can trust the kid(s), I trust Kotomi and Shoushuu 100% with anyone. I'd be more paranoid of leaving my Shikoku unsupervised with the kid(s) and then coming back to find out the kid(s) hurt my dogs.
Finally, and this is the defacto.... These dogs are unbelievably rare. How can there be so few breeders? I am in southern California, and the closest breeder I've found is in Canada.
- So...where abouts in Southern California do you live? If you're interested in meeting these goofballs, let me know.
And, finally finally (I promise)... is there ANY chance that you'd ever find these dogs in rescue's and pounds? I have always been of the mindset to save a dog's life that may not otherwise have a chance rather than paying (a lot) to have one bred for you.
- Adopting and providing a home for a dog with a grim future is absolutely one of the best things you can do. However, concerning the Shikoku, being an uncommon and rare breed...I should hope there aren't any in shelters. If there were, you can bet one of us would be down there in a heartbeat! We wish to keep them out of rescues and shelters.
Sorry for that long-winded first post. I just have a lot of questions. Thanks guys...
- Ask away if you have anymore questions. We exist here to give you the most accurate information about our breed.
And everyone else. I can't say enough. Thanks for all of the thorough answers... I can't wait til the day I can get one of these dogs. But, I just don't think it is in the immediate future. But, I do plan on learning more and more about them until I can get one. Why don't more owners breed these dogs? I don't know anything about breeding, maybe there's laws against just breeding dogs and selling them. I know I've read to avoid the "backyard breeders" though, I'm not sure the reasoning behind this precisely. It just seems like more owners could provide these beautiful dogs to more people around the country and to bring awareness up around them and the breed. I don't know... perhaps there ought to be a separate post to talk about this issue.
Dog breeders are a funny lot. People who love dogs and treat them as members of the family are a dime a dozen, especially in the US. We're basically a dog culture here. But breeders are people who fall in love with a _breed_, and come to feel responsible for the care, health, and maintenance of the entire breed.
There is probably an element of traditional Japanese culture being very careful about how they handle westerners also. Japan has a governmental body that designates various things as being important links to Japan's very long history. These include places, buildings, traditional arts, and species. Shikoku as well as most of the other Nihonken we talk about on here are what are called "living monuments". To cut to the chase, the Japanese breeders have put a lot of work into maintaining these breeds over the past couple of decades and they don't want foreigners taking these dogs out of Japan and changing them into something unnatural.
Then there is the fear of having the breed drift into something different, and a general distaste for AKC breeding practices which focus on appearance that have caused health problems in a lot of the AKC breeds. If the breeders aren't careful who gets breeding contracts, they will be responsible for any problems the breed will have in the future. So they are conservative about who they place the dogs with.
Things to read up on are: the difference between the "American Akita" and the "Japanese Akita." Also, the health problems that have been bred into some of the larger and less natural-looking dog breeds. Read up on breeds like the Tamaskan and debate over whether that's even a breed or if it is a "designer dog." There is a lot of stuff that goes on that the Nihonken community would like to avoid. We want out breeds to stay the way they have been for hundreds of years.
Heh - they also have small litters!
And also if the breeders aren't careful where they place them, there is the risk that they'll become the next "bad breed."
The first and most important is this, responsible breeding involves tremendous personal financial commitment.
Jen (tsukitsune) posted a great chart that effectively explains some of that responsibility
The second reason is the genetic pool is very limited here. I know one member mentioned that she was neutering her dog because she couldn't find a mate that their dog wasn't related to. So unless you are willing to import dogs from Japan you will be irresponsibly breeding.
Breeding is best left to professionals. Especially considering we don't want shikoku to end up in rescue, puppy mills, or to develop the many issues that overbred breeds have (Akita and their thyroids, Shibas and patellas).
I'm really optimistic about the breed's future, given the awesome people who plan on breeding them. The number of shikokus will definitely grow, but it's important to realise that the first shikoku ever to be exported to a breeder outside of Japan was fairly recent. If I understand correctly - this dog is currently in Holland. The first litter born in Canada (at Akashima) was only a couple years ago. The first shikoku born in the US, I believe, was at I'Kon and that was only in the past few years as well.
The chances of a shikoku ending up in a shelter are slim to none, but my shikoku Rakka was a "rescue" that I heard about through this forum. Her previous owner was unable to care for her, so she posted on this forum that Rakka needed a new home. We emailed back and forth and then I drove to pick her up. If a shikoku is in need, this forum is here to find it a home, that is for sure. I think I can safely say that our collective goal is to help and promote all nihon ken, which includes keeping them out of shelters.
- I'm also planning on breeding Shikoku as well in the near future (within the next 2 or 3 years) Rina - I think it's funny that you don't have any personal experience with Shikoku because you only live 15 minutes away from me! lol.
So when are you planning on adding Komi to your account pictures as well? I'm looking forward to the meetup to see your pack. My next dog (in 2 or 3 years) will likely be a female Shika to accompany Ichi.
Jesse
What part of Orange County? That's where I grew up... Cypress/Los Al area... I also lived in Costa Mesa for a bit. Both of my parents are still in Cypress. (you can "whisper" if you want... I'm not sure how much info you want out there in internet land ;) )