Social vs Tolerant

A wagging tail and lick on the face doesn't necessarily mean your dog is people or dog social...

...so how do we begin to define "being social" in the doggie world?

Is your dog truely social or just tolerant?

We read many, many, many books and get opinions on raising a puppy...and constantly we see socialize, socialize and socialize!

...I've seen dogs without any socialization as a pup turn into VERY social dogs. And I've seen dogs with socialization turn into NON-social dogs. Seem reversed?

I'm wondering if maybe "social dogs" are born and not made. When "socializating" a dog, one isn't making the dog social...but attempting to increase a dog's tolerance level to deal with common dog to dog and dog to human interaction.

As of this very moment...I think I prefer the term "exposure" as to "socialization".

-sighs- It's been a long day of doggie training...

Comments

  • edited November -1
    I'll absolutely agree that the line between "born" and "made" (traditionally nature vs. nuture) is indistinct. I think an example in the human world is that 2 students may go through the same class schedule every day and still be on completely different levels regarding their social skills. I think organized socialization only goes so far, and how much of that education actually sticks is also up to the creature.

    In all honesty, I settle -and almost prefer- tolerance to friendliness in my animals. My own tendency isn't to befriend or even be nice to most people, and the people with whom I chose to be friends are special. That means it's sort of okay that my dogs don't really even want to meet every dog that happens through our life. I do, however, expect my dogs to pass humans and animals on walks without incident, and I expect them to behave in a manner where people and children aren't uncomfortable in my house. Just my $0.02...
  • edited November -1
    I haven't had the opportunity to raise many dogs, so I can't give a true opinion on 'made' vs. 'born' sociability, but I can say with certainty that there is a CLEAR difference between actually SOCIAL and TOLERANT.

    My female shiba (that I raised) is definitely SOCIAL. She looks forward to meet/greet with those she knows and those she does not (humans, dogs). She enjoys the social aspects of daily life.

    My male shiba (I adopted at 1 y/o) is TOLERANT of social experiences, but does not enjoy them. Though, as a dog, I can see that he is a social being, with his family, everything else makes him uneasy/uncomfortable.

    All other shiba fosters have been in the gray area...
    Kobe, male, both dog and people TOLERANT
    Hachi, female, is very dog SOCIAL, people TOLERANT - most of the time.
    Hanzo, male, is very people SOCIAL, dog INTOLERANT
    Jiro, male (intact), dog AND people SOCIAL. Exuberantly social!

    All other breed fosters
    Bodhi, border collie male, dog TOLERANT, and I'm not sure he knew that people existed most of the time except for handler - a true working dog I think.
    Linus, basset hound male, dog and people SOCIAL
    Henson, terrier mix male, dog TOLERANT, people SOCIAL


    What do I mean? I think socialization is still a necessity for a dog to live well in a human world with human expectations. But each dog may require a unique socialization experience. I think a basset hound requires less people, object, dog socialization than does a Shiba. I think terriers require more dog socialization than does a basset hound, etc. (not absolute, just an observation). More or less can be defined however... maybe for this I mean more=diverse and frequent throughout life, less=as much as you can as a pup, when its encountered in adult hood.

    Social dogs seem to be comfortable and CONFIDENT in their interactions with people and other dogs.

    Tolerant dogs seem to know to not be reactive under normal circumstances when in this social situation, but are clearly uncomfortable or less than confident.


    Am I reading your question correctly? I feel like I'm rambling!!
  • edited November -1
    I am intrigued by the thought process Corina. Looking back at the dogs I have been around, I find myself agreeing with it as well.
  • edited November -1
    Sure, I think it's genetics that play a large role in how social a dog is. It's a combination of reactiveness, confidence, and recovery - which, IMHO, is all genetic. But socializing is a must for having a balanced dog.

    What I don't think is passed on genetically is dog aggression, there are obvious factors that lead to dog aggression that are genetic (like strong nerves and health issues) but I think a dog has to be fearful and learn that being aggressive works before it can actually be dubbed "dog aggressive".

    I think that there is too much pressure put on dogs to be social with other dogs, and what ends up happening is people go to "socialize" their dogs with other dogs (as their instructed to do by so many people/books/trainers) but do it incorrectly and end up actually making their dog form negative associations with dogs.

    I also think a lot of the general breed descriptions apply to dogs 50 years ago when they were naturally socialized to their environment. In a time like this, when liability is so high, we don't allow our dogs to naturally socialize with their environment any more and instead we expect our setup socialization opportunities to be enough for our dogs to function as they are described in books. Fact is, we can not compete with nature.

    Because of all the opinions I have formed I now strive for social indifference. I want my dogs to not care that other (strange) dogs are around, I don't care if they play or not. I would prefer them just ignore them.

    Having said that, I don't have any dog that behaves like that. LOL... Luytiy may come the closets, but he is still interested in at least sniffing the other dog.

    ----
  • edited November -1
    You could argue socializing doesn't make a social dog but a tolerant one. However it does most obviously make a huge difference between a dog that handles situations and a reactive dog that panics or turns agressive in those situations. I would say majority of dogs that go backward after socializing were not socialized properly but flooded and stressed or put into negative situations instead of positive ones. It's easy to make a dog worse if every situation you put them in seems bad to them instead of good. The rest it's probably either a training or a health issue that makes them start reacting badly.
  • edited November -1
    “ I think socialization is still a necessity for a dog to live well in a human world with human expectations. But each dog may require a unique socialization experience.”

    Yep, I completely agree. Each animal is different and innate personality has a lot to do with it. I have had more than one female over the years raised from a puppy-hood and each has gone through the exact same socialization experiences.... And each has been unique with their behavior in regard to other dogs, people and the environment. In regard to my recent Shibas, one is pretty social with most dogs and people (loves the dog park). The other will not tolerate strange dogs in her space in public nor multiple dogs sniffing her at one time (hates the dog park) and is not happy about human strangers for the first 15 minutes or so when we have visitors. She is quite territorial within the home space. She has always been like this although she has a lot of training and socializing. Her personality is inherently what it is, although modified somewhat by us. On our own property she is fine with strange dogs but it takes a bit of careful introductions to accept the newcomers. She also understands doggie body language and is pretty savvy about the intent of most. All the rescues look up to her for whatever reason. She toughs it out even with fosters such as Jindos who are bigger and active. She certainly has her own set of rules mentally and you just have to know what they are within reason so everyone is comfortable and avoid discord.

    Genetics play a role in the personality for sure. How we choose to shape that and develop it is very important. Particularly between 8 – 16 weeks of age which is the prime period for developing interaction and learning, from there ongoing positive experiences build on those skills learned in the first four months. If you acquire your dog after this 16 week window, all is not lost but you may have to work harder and compliment it with tasks geared to the specific traits the animal exhibits. I.e some dogs use their paws, others sniff more, and others are vocal, you really have use whatever positive things they exhibit to your advantage to gain more leverage in the relationship. In the end it usually all works out if one puts in the effort and examines the personality of the specific dog.

    Snf
  • edited November -1
    This is a nice page on the subject.

    http://www.badrap.org/rescue/dogdog.cfm
  • edited August 2009
    Great link Crystal!

    Yep I would say it bounces from dog tolerant to dog selective for our female Shibas. It really depends on the situation.
    Knowing each ones needs, I never put them in a situation that would compromise what we have worked hard to achieve.

    Snf
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