Possible Kai?
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1905
    So my rescue pulled a dog from an Alabama shelter. Normally I just scroll through these emails, but this time, this guy caught my eye. It's possible he's just some kind of cattle dog or herding breed x, but I wanted to see what you guys thought. I see a possible brindle spot on his back/base of his tail., but I know you guys will know for sure better than me. :p

    I asked for more information about his personality and his size/characteristics.

    edit: I got this back - apparently, the picture was mislabeled. The dog is female and named "Maggie" (pictured was labeled "Jax"). This is what I got back after I asked for a few more details:
    "Maggie is black, about 35lbs, young, playful and good with all humans and other animals. We also have her sister that looks identical but is brindle. Personality is the same."
    image
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
    Post edited by Crispy at 2013-03-11 22:28:38
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 3016
    I'm not kai ken expert so can't be 100% sure, but the picture does look like a kai ken..

    Do you have picture of the sister?
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 7year old Bella(Boxer), and 7year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1905
    @Saya - Not yet. The rescue member responsible for pulling these dogs said that she could get me updated pictures tomorrow or Wednesday. The foster mom will take their pictures and send them in.
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
    Post edited by Crispy at 2013-03-11 22:53:18
  • tjbart17tjbart17
    Posts: 4055
    @crispy they have her sister as well? The muzzle looks brindle. Looks Kai to me.

    @brada1878 what do you think?

    I think another picture would be good.
    Post edited by tjbart17 at 2013-03-11 23:11:12
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1905
    @tjbart17 - They say it's her sister. I'm not sure if it's literally her littermate. They are being described as different breeds (Maggie is labeled as a "spitz mix" and Piper is labeled as a "cattle dog mix"), but are similar in size and age.

    Piper was pulled from the shelter with Maggie.

    I know more pictures will help ID more accurately. I just keep asking more and more questions and waiting on replies. It's getting late on the east coast, though, so I suspect I won't be getting any more replies tonight.
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    Looks like a Kai in this pic, but I bet a different pic would show that he is not a Kai. He looks like he has a muted mask or something ..
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979
    So the picture is of a female?

    Her head looks too blocky for a female Kai?
    Post edited by ayk at 2013-03-11 23:55:01
  • tjbart17tjbart17
    Posts: 4055
    @ayk Mika is a little blocky. We joke that she's Akashi's daughter.
  • Does have a Kai look, though I'm certainly not an expert. Another pic might give us a better idea, or a pic of the sister. Good looking dog, anyway.
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3977
    Piper was pulled from the shelter with Maggie.


    If the picture you linked to in this comment is any indication, if Piper is genetically related with Maggie then I highly doubt Maggie has any kai in her. Though, they could be considered sisters in the sense of housemates (Tom will often refer to Tetsu and Tikaani as brothers even though they aren't even the same breed).

    image
    image
    Post edited by Calia at 2013-03-12 10:26:02
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1905
    @Calia - Yeah, when they said "sister" and I saw the picture, I went "well, that solves that mystery". Unfortunately, I never got confirmation if they were blood related or house mates before their drop in/pull from the shelter. I don't know why they would be blood related if the woman who pulled them is describing them as different breeds.

    I hope to get more pictures today! I'll follow up with this thread when I do.
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1905
    Updated pictures of Maggie:
    Maggie often keeps her tail low, but it becomes erect when she's alert. She looks less Kai-ish to me in these pictures, but I still can't be sure. I'm not very familiar with the breed.
    image

    image
    I'm still not clear if her "sister" is blood related or not. I don't know if the woman who pulled them actually knows. They were pulled and are being fostered together. They are similar sizes and appear somewhat similar in shape (from what I see in pictures), but they are still being labeled as different breeds.


    FYI - Molly (the second dog, formerly Piper) is the dog they are referring to as brindle. She looks like a possible agouti + merle to me, but certainly not brindle.

    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • cdenneycdenney
    Posts: 961
    the "kai" very defined cheek bones and wide head almost remind me of a pitbull but the muzzle and ears dont match.
    image
    image
  • Maybe she's a chow mix. For some reason, there are a lot of lab/chow crosses around (I had one) that look kind of like Kai and have a similar look to her. She's cute, anyway, though she does look less like a Kai in these pics.
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • TrzcinaTrzcina
    Posts: 331
    I have no idea what they are, but I just wanted to say... the color on the "sister" is crazy! Cool, though!
  • sukoshi_momsukoshi_mom
    Posts: 775
    There could also be some Queensland Heeler in the mix here.
  • WrylyBrindleWrylyBrindle
    Posts: 3288
    I think expecting a hypothetical kai mix to look more kai than whatever else it is, or like just a somewhat 'off' kai is expecting too much- in addition to being a Kai mix, they are ALSO equally a (whatever the other parent is) mix... and that's if both parents are actually purebred dogs. (there could be three or more breeds in there...) As in- if a hypothetical (and beloved) mixed dog was a kai x pitbull mix, it is silly to say "That's not a Kai mix, thats a pitbull mix!" because its both. The Kai people will say it has a bully face, only partially erect ears and is too big: the pitbull people will notice it's over the sickle tail carriage and northern coat are completely too bushy and thick for a pit bull and its legs too straight and eyes too triangular...
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1905
    I just wanted to update this thread with a few more pictures I found today in our group picasa.

    https://picasaweb.google.com/110436127678722938418/Maggie02#
    Here are some more pictures of Maggie if anyone is interested.
    It looks like she has some scattered white hairs on her chest and some brown on her feet and other tiny patches.
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • She looks a lot like the lab/chow cross I had years ago in those pics. Looks like a sweet girl, though she looks scared in those pics, but I'm sure the whole situation is very stressful for her.

    Hope she finds a home!
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • tjbart17tjbart17
    Posts: 4055
    Oh she's a scared puppy. :-(
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1905
    She is super scared. I don't think she's going to do well on transport when she comes up so I hope she's adopted locally before then. :/
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • I'm really surprised so many folks don't see Kai mix. I think she totally looks like she could be part Kai. I don't see chow at all. But i couldn't agree with Chrystal more. People will see what they want to see.
    Fuzzy Gang Signature
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1905
    @WrylyBrindle @JessicaRabbit
    People do see what they want to see. I know I can sometimes be guilty of it, but I try to be rational. We have an Akita/Lab mix at work that I could not believe for a second, but the owner is the one that owned the Akita mom--all I could see was Labrador. There was no power that could convince me that it was part Akita until I learn'd myself.

    When I saw her face, though, I literally just stopped in my tracks (we get emails of the dogs we've pulled all the time with pictures and I scroll through them and get to know their story if I see a red flag, but that's it), despite the voice going "don't be stupid, it's probably a cattle dog x".

    Maggie is labelled as an "Ewok" now (jokingly) in the system for a lack of a better breed. My rescue thought I was crazy when I brought up that Maggie bore a striking resemblance to a Kai until they saw pictures of Kai.


    In a related story (which also made me think of Sage)
    We had a purebred Pyr who came in (puppy) that another Pyr rescue wouldn't take because she had a crooked nose and a semi-erect ear and "didn't look like a Pyr".
    https://picasaweb.google.com/110436127678722938418/Jessica02
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org
  • sjp051993sjp051993
    Posts: 1605
    To me she really has a cattle dog mix look to her.
    Stacey living with Tora, Kazue, Ritsu and Kuma the Shiba
    www.suteishiikennels.com

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  • I think she could be a kai mix, but the reason I said lab/chow is because my lab/chow cross looked almost exactly like that. For some reason there were quite a few in the area I lived in in Michigan, and when I first saw Kai Ken (the blacker varieties) I did think wow, they look like the lab/chow crosses. Actually, my girl could have even been sharpei/lab cross, but she did have prick ears. The chinese breed was evident in the fact that she had an entirely purple tongue, so it had to be either sharpei or chow. She had no other chow markers though (well, prick ears, and a seriously lazy/grumpy temperament!) She had a lab coat, though, and was about 40 pounds, with serious hunting drive.
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
    Post edited by shibamistress at 2013-03-23 16:26:54
  • WrylyBrindleWrylyBrindle
    Posts: 3288
    @Crispy- I think that puppy looks like a pyr- (pyr enough to me- they arent always all white, as you know), and I adore her wry face! :) (I would...)

    I think it can be splitting hairs to choose breeds, why they dont just say "Asian Spitz/Northern type and herding type" for example, based on structure and behavior, is beyond me. The adopting owner doesnt need to know what exact breed it is- we cant tell them anyway- if they wanted an exact breed they would go to a breeder. They need to feel a connection, and they need to know what behaviors the individual exhibits, play preferences and health status. Breed type should be enough to help an evaluator parse what behaviors may be hardwired/hard to modify and should be accepted and managed (or loved!) vs which behaviors are easily modifyable with training and security in a home and relationship.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    In these most recent pics she looks like a Kai to me. Maybe not even a mix.
  • CrispyCrispy
    Posts: 1905
    Haha, I agree with @WrylyBrindle - in the end, I was just curious. I think they're picking generic "shepherd" and "schipperke" (because, you know, small black spitzy dog) for the breeds.

    This case of labeling wasn't a huge issue, I was just genuinely curious what people thought of her since she made me stop in my tracks. I just wanted to see if I was crazy. I guess I'm only as crazy as thinking "yeah, there could totally be a Kai running around in Alabama" - but hey, we've seen Shikoku/Cane Corso puppies from AL, so maybe it's not as crazy as it sounds. Thank you @shibamistress @brada1878 @spj051993 @tjbart17 and everyone who contributed. :)






    At the end of the day, my biggest issue with mislabeling dogs is when they label the Anatolian (and other Turkish/shorter-haired guardian breeds) X's as Labrador Xs... but that's a story for another day.
    Akiyama no Roushya || 秋山の狼室 || www.kishu-ken.org

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