Yeah herding wild hogs. I saw that too awhile back and can't see a kishu herding live stock. I guess if some one has a really responsive dog that won't blow you off than maybe it might work. My dogs would never be able to do it.

"Tetsu would be good at herding small livestock into his stomach." <<-- LMAO<br />
----

LMAO @ Beth!

Yeah, I am not sure I could ever see either of my two herding anything that would remain alive afterwards. They do however, do a good job of herding the neighbor kitties from one side of the yard to the other (outside of the fence).

Shiba are obviously not a true herding dog, but I know Shiba will stalk and wait, and stalk and wait like a border collie. I see this pattern frequently towards other dogs, and it's hilarious when one of mine does it to an Aussie or BC at the park, but it always quickly ends in a pounce, retreat, and bay to hold, where a BC would continue stalking and waiting under extreme distraction.

I don't see them driving an animal at all with any purpose, and certainly not under direction. They will go for a kill if the animal is small enough, and mine have done this with quail and chickens who flew the coop. I think with real herders, the stalking pattern is extremely developed and prolonged, without the "going for the kill" part. I think herding would be impossible for any NK.

I like the idea of the Shibas herding animals into their stomachs! Certainly mine are like that! And like Lindsay, I've often observed the stalk and wait pattern in my Shibas. However, it usually ends in the death of the creature being stalked!

I saw Oskar do it just the other day, too (though his pounce is rather dramatic given his size). He was after my friend's caged parrot. What was scariest was how patiently he waited til the parrot was down near the bottom of the cage, and then he bit only at her feet (avoiding her beak). Luckily I was there and intervened, or the parrot--an African Grey with more bravery than sense--would have been missing some toes. (He's started all this with a creeping into the kitchen, then freezing in place, then more stalking, and we were laughing at how silly he looked, instead of worrying that he might actually do some damage. Lesson learned--Oskar's not that dumb afterall, and the humans need to pay a lot more attention to the NKs and the caged birds).

I said a while back: "I don't see them (Shiba) driving an animal at all with any purpose, and certainly not under direction...I think herding would be impossible for any NK."

Foot in mouth, I seriously take it all back. A friend and I took 5 Shibas representing 2 seperate lines, and my CO, to a herding test today. 1 of the lines is the "softer" temperament that has produced some outstanding and very agreable dogs that are very nice to live with. The other has produced very edgy and drivey dogs who have a strong prey drive and strong desire to work.

Two of the dogs from the "sharper" line with a common sire/grand sire, did really well actually and took to it right away. I'm pleased, since this was the most feasable alternative to testing them on pigs. Now, the sheep were enormous, bigger than the CO, but experienced and not dog sour so it was actually really safe for the dogs to do this.

I got video and will upload it to a seperate thread later, but this was really fun and the CO and Shibas were invited back. An interesting thing, that the two Shibas who did the best, are a related male and female pair and the herdsman actually suggested they start working them together as a pair. So they did, and they did better, and they bayed the sheep and brought them to us. I mean, it took very little stretch to see how a hunter in Japan could have hunted a deer or hog with a good working pair of dogs. This is probably the closest I will ever come to that, so it was cool.

It was also super hilarious to watch a 19 pound Shiba bitch with that much chutzpah steering around some 200lb sheep like she was born to do it.


Farrah


Farrah


Farrah stalking


Farrah cutting the sheep off


Farrah holding the sheep


Farrah, the eye


Farrah, driving the sheep


Koji and Farrah working together


Farrah and Koji working together

I like this bitch so well :)

I will tomorrow, I can't get Youtube on this station.

Farrah was most mouthy, and she was doing what appeared to be heeling nips on their hocks, which the herdsman encouraged. She made a few air bites to their faces at times also if they tried moving where she didn't want. When she drove the sheep back in to their pen, she took some pot shots and jumped up to grab some flank wool to drive that point home to them (it seemed).

Beebe and Maluko were uninterested in taking the sheep on by themselves (ignored), so we had to get in the pen and encourage them to work. Ike wanted to play and did some play bows, but the sheep were kinda boring to him.

I have some excellent vids of Grym, he was freaking intense, and LGD types can definately herd. I'll be interested to hear what Brad has to say about his style (droving, bark and hold, etc).

"have some excellent vids of Grym, he was freaking intense, and LGD types can definately herd."

That kind of brings up a thought I was having. If a herd/flock was protected by a LGD, how would/should the LGD react when the owner uses a herding dog to move the herd/flock? Or are the two not mixed together, that you can only have one or the other or have a LGD that can multitask? I know that some LGD worked with small yappy dogs that alerted to threats, but those dogs didn't affect the flock like a herding dog would. @brada1878


LoL, nice to hear that Farrah was so assertive with the sheep, maybe she was trying to dominate them :P Funny that Ike did play bows, I'd imagine that Tikaani would be the same way at first.

@lindsayt - Nope, no vids:(

How about now?

Yep, can see the videos:)

I find it funny how the sheep stuck to the guy with Grym in the ring. And is it just me, or did they give Farrah bigger sheep than Grym

LoL, now you make me want to try this with my pups...Too bad all these herding places by me only allow herding breeds since the only reason to herd sheep here is for trials.

I never thought the Shibas will actually herd, but I am very glad I tried this with my two dogs. It was so great to have Lindsay and her pack to go with us. That triples the fun!

I thought Koji would either be confused or go crazy with the sheep, but he surprised me by showing interests in the sheep and not getting overly excited with them. Farrah did super well and took to it right away. The two are related, so the genes definitely play a big role in this.

My mellow girl Maluko was not interested in chasing sheep, but she was a good solider following her people who was told to act all crazy and wanting to kill the sheep to get the dogs excited. Maluko stayed calm and very zen-like and followed me as I growled, made funny noises and pushed the sheep really hard to get her worked up.... Did not work with her and I was breathless trying to wrestle with the sheep!

I really look forward to our next visit and hope Koji can learn from his aunt Farrah. :)

Here's Koji:

Very nice pictures and videos. :)

Glad it went well.

I finally got a chance to watch these! Amazing! Looks super fun too.

so some questions. Lindsay said that the dogs from the sharper lines did better--Koji and Farrah? (who is their common grandsire?) And did the dogs from the other line, the more laid back Shibas, not do as well? What did they do that wasn't as good? Were they just not interested? (oops, going back I see this is kind of answered...sounds like the other dogs just didn't engage as well).

What is the guy doing with the stick with Grym? I'm guessing it's some way of guiding the dog? Was he sometimes trying to keep Grym away from the sheep?

Very interesting. It was fascinating watching Farrah work, too, and I recognize a lot of her moves from when Bel is really focused on hunting. She stares, and gets down low, and makes fast, quick turns too, but with lots of sharp, fast nipping bites (that quickly turn deadly for the small animals she's after). It makes me think that for all her flaws, Bel has serious drive that if she were a more stable dog, could have been used. (If there were a herding trial with ducks and Bel, though, there would be no more ducks).

Farrah, Koji and Grym kicked ass though!

I know right? For me, the real reward of hunting is actually watching a dog work. On a good day I'll bring home dinner. On the worst day it's a walk in the woods with my dogs, which is still a damn good day if you ask me. :-)

Awesome picture of the four dogs! :)

I know Im a little late but this is awesome! @Calia...ROFL...because I could just imagine Bea doing the same thing! :)

These were really cool pics/vids. Sorry it took so long for me to respond. I only get a few minutes at a time at work, and I wanted to watch/read everything.

Grym really interested me, not that the Shibas are not completely adorable and feisty. Would he have herded the sheep into a pen or do you think just to someone?

I herd actively with my GSD, at the same place Lindsay went. Tavi (my Kai Ken) isn't 'in' to it, but shes still a pup so we'll see.

I recommend everyone to try herding at least a few times. He will NOT get trampled, the sheep stay with the 'shepherd'/trainer, because they are safety. With that said, the trainer also does not let the sheep get hurt, if you review the pictures, the trainer has a pole to direct, push, move, etc. the dog. Usually the first few sessions dogs do not have rules.. and are allowed to bite / nip / chase the stock to build drive and dedication.

Herding teaches your dog impulse control, to take cues from you even if you're 20 yards away, etc. My GSD will run / walk until hes dead, I can take him for a 15 mile hike and he'll still be ready for more, but a hard 20 minute herding session and he'll sleep for 2 days!

I played with herding with my Lapphund (which is a herding breed) years ago, and it was quite a lot of fun. It's sometimes surprising which dogs take to it and which don't--she had zero interest in sheep, but was very good on ducks (despite the fact that I had been convinced that she would want only to eat the ducks--but she didn't hurt them). Her litter brother, generally lazy and low-drive, LOVED the sheep and would run to exhaustion with the sheep. Neither of them ever were trained far enough to actually be able to pen stock, but they had fun learning some basic skills in a round pen.

It really is a lot of fun, and I think it's worth trying even with the most non-traditional of breeds. If your dog doesn't like it and doesn't take to it, no big deal. If he/she does, then you've found a fun activity that you might want to dabble in a little.

Finding places to do it can be hard, though. Even with herding breeds, some places won't take anything besides collie-type breeds (Border Collies, Shelties, etc.) I was told with Lapphunds, and this is probably true if you want to try it with an NK or other non-herding breed too, that you want to avoid places that focus heavily on Border Collies if possible. Some BC-only trainers have no clue what to do with dogs that don't herd like BCs, and have no patience for it. Or so I was told--which was a big deal with Lapphunds, because they tend to herd from a distance, noisily, and don't bring stock to the handler (because who wants to stand in the middle of an agitated herd of reindeer, and that goes for the dog as well!).

@Zandrame

Remember to post videos!!

@dragonfly find somewhere close I'll join you in the summer . But for now, trial and error with the quails (( insert evil laugh ))