Herding? Really?
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3386
    The Wikipedia article on the Kishu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kishu) says that Kishu can be used for herding. Also, the shiba article on the Wisdom Panel website (DNA testing) says that shiba were used for herding (http://www.wisdompanel.com/breedinfo/small/shibainu.html).

    Really?
    Dogs: Rakka (shikoku), Sosuke (kai), Effie (bc/kelpie)
    Cats: Hester, Batgirl, Stephanie, Harley
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2082
    Well wikipedia can have some off information on things, I've seen a few incorrect pages on there. I don't have a Kishu so I can't say for sure though.
    Maybe Shibas were used to herd like, ducks? I don't really see that happening with most Shibas though, I think they'd rather eat them.
    image
  • shishiinushishiinu
    Posts: 2337
    Yeah herding wild hogs. I saw that too awhile back and can't see a kishu herding live stock. I guess if some one has a really responsive dog that won't blow you off than maybe it might work. My dogs would never be able to do it.
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3977
    LoL Tetsu would be good at herding small livestock into his stomach.

    I'm wondering if maybe someone saw a video of a Kishu baying, maybe even one of those training session video with the fencing and stuff, and they thought the boar was being herded and not hunted. Some people can really misinterpret things especially if they don't know the back story or that such a thinking (hunting with dogs) existed.

    image
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    "Tetsu would be good at herding small livestock into his stomach." <<-- LMAO<br />
    ----
    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2011-03-15 09:40:49
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3386
    Yeah, I figured it was misinformation, but I just had to check!
    Dogs: Rakka (shikoku), Sosuke (kai), Effie (bc/kelpie)
    Cats: Hester, Batgirl, Stephanie, Harley
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 4546
    LMAO @ Beth!

    Yeah, I am not sure I could ever see either of my two herding anything that would remain alive afterwards. They do however, do a good job of herding the neighbor kitties from one side of the yard to the other (outside of the fence).
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
  • "Tetsu would be good at herding small livestock into his stomach" - BWAHAHAHAH!!! ROFL!

    You can't always believe books/articles. In one of my dog encyclodepias they say the shiba can be grey and brindle (on top of 3 types of sesame, red and white)!! -.-' DUH!
    Tanja
    ... all the way from hillbilly Denmark ;)
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3449
    Shiba are obviously not a true herding dog, but I know Shiba will stalk and wait, and stalk and wait like a border collie. I see this pattern frequently towards other dogs, and it's hilarious when one of mine does it to an Aussie or BC at the park, but it always quickly ends in a pounce, retreat, and bay to hold, where a BC would continue stalking and waiting under extreme distraction.

    I don't see them driving an animal at all with any purpose, and certainly not under direction. They will go for a kill if the animal is small enough, and mine have done this with quail and chickens who flew the coop. I think with real herders, the stalking pattern is extremely developed and prolonged, without the "going for the kill" part. I think herding would be impossible for any NK.
    Hokusei Kashinoki Hokkaido and Shiba Inu
    masakadoshiba@hotmail.com
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  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    I think the term "herding" is a rather encompassing term. Under the label of "herding" falls sheep herding (think BC), cow herding (ACD), bull baiting (CC), bark-and-hold type behavior (FSM or AB), and droving (FSM and Kelpie). I'm sure there are others.

    Point is, there are a lot of breeds with "herding" mentioned in their description who do not preform typical herding-dog work.

    Like the Cane Corso, they are said to have helped move bull from the bullpen to the butcher's slaughter house and then held them for the butcher to slaughter. That's a form of herding and baiting, perhaps a Kishu-like dog could preform a similar task (with pig)?

    In the LGD community, it's a common argument. LGD are not herding dogs, but they do herd. LGD enthusiasts get kinda pissy if you say their dogs herd - they don't herd they guard. But then what is this?





    Those are "Tobet" dogs, basically Central Asian Ovcharka from Kazakhstan. They are LGD, not herders.

    You remember this video?


    If you saw an ACD puppy do that exact behavior, wouldn't you call it "herding"?

    After all, herding is simply an altered predatory sequence. At some point it had to have shown up naturally in (hunting) dogs, which kinda implies any dog has the potential to be a herder. right? And a dog with a full predatory pattern would be more likely to display the behavior than a dog with very litter predatory pattern...

    oh, but wait, LGD don't have "prey drive" (and therefore lack intact predatory patterns) and yet I just posted videos with LGD herding (which is altered predatory behavior). See, there is always a gray area.

    Like I wrote in the other thread, I'm no expert. LOL

    ----
  • I like the idea of the Shibas herding animals into their stomachs! Certainly mine are like that! And like Lindsay, I've often observed the stalk and wait pattern in my Shibas. However, it usually ends in the death of the creature being stalked!

    I saw Oskar do it just the other day, too (though his pounce is rather dramatic given his size). He was after my friend's caged parrot. What was scariest was how patiently he waited til the parrot was down near the bottom of the cage, and then he bit only at her feet (avoiding her beak). Luckily I was there and intervened, or the parrot--an African Grey with more bravery than sense--would have been missing some toes. (He's started all this with a creeping into the kitchen, then freezing in place, then more stalking, and we were laughing at how silly he looked, instead of worrying that he might actually do some damage. Lesson learned--Oskar's not that dumb afterall, and the humans need to pay a lot more attention to the NKs and the caged birds).
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3386
    Well, all the drives are in degrees. I suppose a really dedicated person with a particularly biddable shiba could accomplish something that might be called herding.
    Dogs: Rakka (shikoku), Sosuke (kai), Effie (bc/kelpie)
    Cats: Hester, Batgirl, Stephanie, Harley
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3449
    I said a while back: "I don't see them (Shiba) driving an animal at all with any purpose, and certainly not under direction...I think herding would be impossible for any NK."

    Foot in mouth, I seriously take it all back. A friend and I took 5 Shibas representing 2 seperate lines, and my CO, to a herding test today. 1 of the lines is the "softer" temperament that has produced some outstanding and very agreable dogs that are very nice to live with. The other has produced very edgy and drivey dogs who have a strong prey drive and strong desire to work.

    Two of the dogs from the "sharper" line with a common sire/grand sire, did really well actually and took to it right away. I'm pleased, since this was the most feasable alternative to testing them on pigs. Now, the sheep were enormous, bigger than the CO, but experienced and not dog sour so it was actually really safe for the dogs to do this.

    I got video and will upload it to a seperate thread later, but this was really fun and the CO and Shibas were invited back. An interesting thing, that the two Shibas who did the best, are a related male and female pair and the herdsman actually suggested they start working them together as a pair. So they did, and they did better, and they bayed the sheep and brought them to us. I mean, it took very little stretch to see how a hunter in Japan could have hunted a deer or hog with a good working pair of dogs. This is probably the closest I will ever come to that, so it was cool.

    It was also super hilarious to watch a 19 pound Shiba bitch with that much chutzpah steering around some 200lb sheep like she was born to do it.

    herd1
    Farrah

    herd2
    Farrah

    herd3
    Farrah stalking

    herd4
    Farrah cutting the sheep off

    herd5
    Farrah holding the sheep

    herd6
    Farrah, the eye

    herd7
    Farrah, driving the sheep

    herd8
    Koji and Farrah working together

    herd9
    Farrah and Koji working together

    I like this bitch so well :)
    Hokusei Kashinoki Hokkaido and Shiba Inu
    masakadoshiba@hotmail.com
    www.masakadoshiba@wordpress.com
    www.hokkaidousa.wordpress.com
    Post edited by lindsayt at 2011-09-04 06:28:29
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3977
    That is so awesome Lindsay, I can't wait to see the video:)
    image
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3449
    I will tomorrow, I can't get Youtube on this station.
    Hokusei Kashinoki Hokkaido and Shiba Inu
    masakadoshiba@hotmail.com
    www.masakadoshiba@wordpress.com
    www.hokkaidousa.wordpress.com
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3977
    Lindsay, where the shibas nippy at the sheep at all, or did they just have more fun chasing than biting? Also, how did Grym do, and how did the less drive shibas react to the sheep?
    image
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3449
    Farrah was most mouthy, and she was doing what appeared to be heeling nips on their hocks, which the herdsman encouraged. She made a few air bites to their faces at times also if they tried moving where she didn't want. When she drove the sheep back in to their pen, she took some pot shots and jumped up to grab some flank wool to drive that point home to them (it seemed).

    Beebe and Maluko were uninterested in taking the sheep on by themselves (ignored), so we had to get in the pen and encourage them to work. Ike wanted to play and did some play bows, but the sheep were kinda boring to him.

    I have some excellent vids of Grym, he was freaking intense, and LGD types can definately herd. I'll be interested to hear what Brad has to say about his style (droving, bark and hold, etc).
    Hokusei Kashinoki Hokkaido and Shiba Inu
    masakadoshiba@hotmail.com
    www.masakadoshiba@wordpress.com
    www.hokkaidousa.wordpress.com
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3449
    Grym part 1


    Part 2
    Hokusei Kashinoki Hokkaido and Shiba Inu
    masakadoshiba@hotmail.com
    www.masakadoshiba@wordpress.com
    www.hokkaidousa.wordpress.com
    Post edited by lindsayt at 2011-09-04 07:27:40
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3977
    "have some excellent vids of Grym, he was freaking intense, and LGD types can definately herd."

    That kind of brings up a thought I was having. If a herd/flock was protected by a LGD, how would/should the LGD react when the owner uses a herding dog to move the herd/flock? Or are the two not mixed together, that you can only have one or the other or have a LGD that can multitask? I know that some LGD worked with small yappy dogs that alerted to threats, but those dogs didn't affect the flock like a herding dog would. @brada1878


    LoL, nice to hear that Farrah was so assertive with the sheep, maybe she was trying to dominate them :P Funny that Ike did play bows, I'd imagine that Tikaani would be the same way at first.
    image
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3449
    @Calia

    Do these videos show up for you?
    Hokusei Kashinoki Hokkaido and Shiba Inu
    masakadoshiba@hotmail.com
    www.masakadoshiba@wordpress.com
    www.hokkaidousa.wordpress.com
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3977
    @lindsayt - Nope, no vids:(
    image
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3449
    Hmm, Sandra made them private. I will have to post the links for now:

    Grym part 1


    Grym part 2
    Hokusei Kashinoki Hokkaido and Shiba Inu
    masakadoshiba@hotmail.com
    www.masakadoshiba@wordpress.com
    www.hokkaidousa.wordpress.com
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3449
    How about now?
    Hokusei Kashinoki Hokkaido and Shiba Inu
    masakadoshiba@hotmail.com
    www.masakadoshiba@wordpress.com
    www.hokkaidousa.wordpress.com
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3449
    Farrah part 1


    Part 2


    Part 3


    Part 4
    Hokusei Kashinoki Hokkaido and Shiba Inu
    masakadoshiba@hotmail.com
    www.masakadoshiba@wordpress.com
    www.hokkaidousa.wordpress.com
    Post edited by lindsayt at 2011-09-04 07:51:03
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3977
    Yep, can see the videos:)

    I find it funny how the sheep stuck to the guy with Grym in the ring. And is it just me, or did they give Farrah bigger sheep than Grym
    image
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3449
    He got the fast livelier sheep which happened to be smaller apparently. Her sheep were boring and slow and big. Ike wanted something like what G got.
    Hokusei Kashinoki Hokkaido and Shiba Inu
    masakadoshiba@hotmail.com
    www.masakadoshiba@wordpress.com
    www.hokkaidousa.wordpress.com
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3977
    LoL, now you make me want to try this with my pups...Too bad all these herding places by me only allow herding breeds since the only reason to herd sheep here is for trials.
    image
  • That looks like fun! Time to add another use for the NK.
    Gen, Ami, Kaylynn, Trinity, Yusuke......Riki, Hana, Sammi, Taro, and the newest addition Koyuki.
  • I never thought the Shibas will actually herd, but I am very glad I tried this with my two dogs. It was so great to have Lindsay and her pack to go with us. That triples the fun!

    I thought Koji would either be confused or go crazy with the sheep, but he surprised me by showing interests in the sheep and not getting overly excited with them. Farrah did super well and took to it right away. The two are related, so the genes definitely play a big role in this.

    My mellow girl Maluko was not interested in chasing sheep, but she was a good solider following her people who was told to act all crazy and wanting to kill the sheep to get the dogs excited. Maluko stayed calm and very zen-like and followed me as I growled, made funny noises and pushed the sheep really hard to get her worked up.... Did not work with her and I was breathless trying to wrestle with the sheep!

    I really look forward to our next visit and hope Koji can learn from his aunt Farrah. :)
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 4546
    That was awesome! I love Farrah!

    That seems like a great experience. :)
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3449
    Here's Koji:


    Hokusei Kashinoki Hokkaido and Shiba Inu
    masakadoshiba@hotmail.com
    www.masakadoshiba@wordpress.com
    www.hokkaidousa.wordpress.com
  • aykayk
    Posts: 1979
    I'm curious to what the tag team looks like. :-)
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 3016
    Very nice pictures and videos. :)

    Glad it went well.
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 7year old Bella(Boxer), and 7year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • Sounds like it was a lot of fun!

    I thoroughly enjoy watching dogs' natural instincts come out. Must have been fascinating to be there in person. :-)
    dlrobertsdlroberts
    Dave, proudly owned by Joey (Shiba Inu), Tyson (Kai Ken), and PRG's Mason Julien McDieserton III, a.k.a. Diesel (Labrador Retriever).
    "My opinion may have changed, but not the fact that I'm right"
  • I finally got a chance to watch these! Amazing! Looks super fun too.

    so some questions. Lindsay said that the dogs from the sharper lines did better--Koji and Farrah? (who is their common grandsire?) And did the dogs from the other line, the more laid back Shibas, not do as well? What did they do that wasn't as good? Were they just not interested? (oops, going back I see this is kind of answered...sounds like the other dogs just didn't engage as well).

    What is the guy doing with the stick with Grym? I'm guessing it's some way of guiding the dog? Was he sometimes trying to keep Grym away from the sheep?

    Very interesting. It was fascinating watching Farrah work, too, and I recognize a lot of her moves from when Bel is really focused on hunting. She stares, and gets down low, and makes fast, quick turns too, but with lots of sharp, fast nipping bites (that quickly turn deadly for the small animals she's after). It makes me think that for all her flaws, Bel has serious drive that if she were a more stable dog, could have been used. (If there were a herding trial with ducks and Bel, though, there would be no more ducks).

    Farrah, Koji and Grym kicked ass though!
    Lisa, Toby (Shiba), Oskar and Zora (American Akita), and Leo (Kai Ken)
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3449
    @ shibamistress:

    Koji's grandsire and Farrah's sire is an import dog called "Ten". The dogs all had the instinct to some degree, but they were not as interested in engaging the sheep right away and with such vigor as these two. They have another lesson in a bit, and I'm told some dogs can appear interested right away, but then lose interest, and vice versa. Perhaps the others will become more keen over time.

    The white pole is like a shepherds crook. It's nice that he wants to work the sheep up close, and gather and drive them to the shepherd (he is supposed to clump them up like that around the shepherd), but the goal is for him to learn to use his body pressure from a distance. The sheep respect his presence, no question of that, so it isn't needed for him to be so close. The pole helps him learn to respect the boundaries. At this point since it is so exciting for him, he could easily switch over to harassing the animals and biting them, which we don't want.

    @Dave: It was cool. I better understand why people in these fields (hunting, herding, retriever trials, etc) become so engaged in doing this stuff. It's very rewarding just to watch the dogs do their thing in a natural/pastoral setting. I had fun watching the other breeds also, Bouvs, GSD, aussies, etc. They all do it their own way. I was really suprised to see these American bred GSD work the flock so naturally. They didn't look so ackward and unnatural when they were doing what they were bred to do vs standing still in a small show ring.
    Hokusei Kashinoki Hokkaido and Shiba Inu
    masakadoshiba@hotmail.com
    www.masakadoshiba@wordpress.com
    www.hokkaidousa.wordpress.com
  • I know right? For me, the real reward of hunting is actually watching a dog work. On a good day I'll bring home dinner. On the worst day it's a walk in the woods with my dogs, which is still a damn good day if you ask me. :-)
    dlrobertsdlroberts
    Dave, proudly owned by Joey (Shiba Inu), Tyson (Kai Ken), and PRG's Mason Julien McDieserton III, a.k.a. Diesel (Labrador Retriever).
    "My opinion may have changed, but not the fact that I'm right"
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 3449
    It's an awesome thing Dave.

    Ewetopia
    Hokusei Kashinoki Hokkaido and Shiba Inu
    masakadoshiba@hotmail.com
    www.masakadoshiba@wordpress.com
    www.hokkaidousa.wordpress.com
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 3016
    Awesome picture of the four dogs! :)
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 7year old Bella(Boxer), and 7year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 12224
    I love that pic!

    @lindsayt - Grym seemed to enjoy his herding. He went in with a lot of enthusiasm, but then he seemed more focused on the herdsman (which I am sure was the intent). He kept the sheep close to the guy, that's for sure!

    ----
    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2011-09-07 16:02:08
  • ttddinhttddinh
    Posts: 1990
    I know Im a little late but this is awesome! @Calia...ROFL...because I could just imagine Bea doing the same thing! :)
  • HeidiHeidi
    Posts: 3386
    This is all *really* cool! It's like looking back in time to when people started selecting those primitive dogs for specific tasks like herding. The population of hunting dogs is throwing individuals with just the right instincts for specialization. Farrah is like a proto-collie! I also see this in Sosuke - being the little water retriever that he is - being like one of the earliest labs or something.
    Dogs: Rakka (shikoku), Sosuke (kai), Effie (bc/kelpie)
    Cats: Hester, Batgirl, Stephanie, Harley
  • tjbart17tjbart17
    Posts: 4055
    These were really cool pics/vids. Sorry it took so long for me to respond. I only get a few minutes at a time at work, and I wanted to watch/read everything.

    Grym really interested me, not that the Shibas are not completely adorable and feisty. Would he have herded the sheep into a pen or do you think just to someone?
  • zandramezandrame
    Posts: 529
    I know this thread is really old, but I might have an opportunity to try Kouda on sheep herding this weekend.

    @lindsayt, @sandrat888, would you recommend herding for a young (17 month old) inexperienced Shiba? I am mostly concerned with him either getting trampled, or taking it too seriously and hurting the sheep. He has strong drive but lacks impulse control when excited. I can't really imagine him working the sheep into a pen. But who knows!

    Has anyone else tried herding?
  • omgtainomgtain
    Posts: 240
    I herd actively with my GSD, at the same place Lindsay went. Tavi (my Kai Ken) isn't 'in' to it, but shes still a pup so we'll see.

    I recommend everyone to try herding at least a few times. He will NOT get trampled, the sheep stay with the 'shepherd'/trainer, because they are safety. With that said, the trainer also does not let the sheep get hurt, if you review the pictures, the trainer has a pole to direct, push, move, etc. the dog. Usually the first few sessions dogs do not have rules.. and are allowed to bite / nip / chase the stock to build drive and dedication.

    Herding teaches your dog impulse control, to take cues from you even if you're 20 yards away, etc. My GSD will run / walk until hes dead, I can take him for a 15 mile hike and he'll still be ready for more, but a hard 20 minute herding session and he'll sleep for 2 days!
  • ShikokuShikoku
    Posts: 264
    @zandrame- Im gonna take an Idea from @Dragonfly and teach mine to herd quail back into their pin. LOL... Just gotta get my livestock permit 1st lol

    -------------------
    Location:MD/VA/DC. Pets: Athena- Shikoku and Hades- Shiba Inu
  • TrzcinaTrzcina
    Posts: 331
    I played with herding with my Lapphund (which is a herding breed) years ago, and it was quite a lot of fun. It's sometimes surprising which dogs take to it and which don't--she had zero interest in sheep, but was very good on ducks (despite the fact that I had been convinced that she would want only to eat the ducks--but she didn't hurt them). Her litter brother, generally lazy and low-drive, LOVED the sheep and would run to exhaustion with the sheep. Neither of them ever were trained far enough to actually be able to pen stock, but they had fun learning some basic skills in a round pen.

    It really is a lot of fun, and I think it's worth trying even with the most non-traditional of breeds. If your dog doesn't like it and doesn't take to it, no big deal. If he/she does, then you've found a fun activity that you might want to dabble in a little.

    Finding places to do it can be hard, though. Even with herding breeds, some places won't take anything besides collie-type breeds (Border Collies, Shelties, etc.) I was told with Lapphunds, and this is probably true if you want to try it with an NK or other non-herding breed too, that you want to avoid places that focus heavily on Border Collies if possible. Some BC-only trainers have no clue what to do with dogs that don't herd like BCs, and have no patience for it. Or so I was told--which was a big deal with Lapphunds, because they tend to herd from a distance, noisily, and don't bring stock to the handler (because who wants to stand in the middle of an agitated herd of reindeer, and that goes for the dog as well!).
  • zandramezandrame
    Posts: 529
    Thank you @omgtain and @Trzcina for your experienced recommendations! We'll give it a try and see how it goes! :)
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 151
    @Zandrame

    Remember to post videos!!
  • DragonflyDragonfly
    Posts: 388
    @Shikoku - LOL if he got close enough they'd all be dead.

    Herding sounds like fun though, i'd like to try it at least once.
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg
  • ShikokuShikoku
    Posts: 264
    @dragonfly find somewhere close I'll join you in the summer . But for now, trial and error with the quails (( insert evil laugh ))

    -------------------
    Location:MD/VA/DC. Pets: Athena- Shikoku and Hades- Shiba Inu
  • DragonflyDragonfly
    Posts: 388
    @Shikoku Haha! He'll sit and watch the quails in their pen while I feed them and I guess he does the same with my roommate when he feeds them. So he came up to me one day and goes 'oh kiyoshi is soooo good with other animals, he's great with the quail'. I had to explain to him that he wasn't just sitting there watching them to be cute. He was sitting there patiently waiting for one to get out, for us to forget to close the pen, or for his chance to stick his head in there when we weren't looking and make a snack of them!

    I'll look around. I'm sure there's gotta be someplace in the area. :)
    photo Kiyoshi-SteveNakatani-2014-1165gnew_zps67b88604.jpg

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