Kishu Rescue

edited August 2012 in Rescue
I have a 2.5 y.o. neutered male Kishu Inu. His name is Aisu. He is a great dog and is wonderful with our four kids. I live in New England.

But…
He has defensive issues and has always been resistant to new men. He also has issue with biting other dogs. He has some neighborhood friends that he plays very rough with. But when he meets new dogs, he has a 50/50 chance of snapping at them. And it’s not a little snap. He is also bad with puppies (I don’t know why, but he seems to hate them).
He has a very strong prey drive. He will chase a deer for 3 miles. He has caught and killed three foxes that have had the misfortune of roaming into our yard. He is a hunting breed and if you want to hunt with a finishing dog, this could be the dog for you.

But the bad news is that he has recently bit a child. This wasn’t one or our kids, but a stranger. It was a young kid that came up to the dog and got in his face. The dog was lying down and was cornered. The dog bit the kid on the hand pretty hard. For this reason, I have to give this dog up. I have four kids and while I feel no threat to my family, I have new kids coming and going around my house all the time. I cannot live with the risk that the dog might bight another child. I sincerely believe that this biting incident was not the dog’s fault, but that doesn’t really matter for my situation. If the dog ever bites another person, it would be my fault.

So, I am giving up a heck of a dog. I am doing this as an alternative to penning him up in our yard or putting him down. But this dog would have to go to a person in the right situation. I would say that kids would be out of the question. I would also say that other dogs are a challenge. He would likely be fine with other dogs if he was part of a pack, but you would have to manage the introduction properly. And you would have to be ok with rough play. If you have not ever watched Kishus play, watch this video because it looks like they are trying to kill each other.


Ideally, I would like to see this dog to a hunter because this is what the dog was bred to do and what he really loves.

So if you are interested in adopting an adult Kishu, I have a great dog. But I don’t want to sugar coat the situation. You have to be able to handle owning a Japanese breed (no small challenge on its own). He has killed a bunch of small animals. This dog has bitten at least ten other dogs at the local dog park. And now this dog has bitten a child.

On the up-side, this dog is a tracking and hunting machine. He is very well trained and responds like clockwork to a list of verbal commands.

some pics
Aisu1
Aisu2
Aisu3
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Comments

  • Oh, what a difficult decision! I am sorry you had to make it. I wish you the best of luck finding Aisu an amazing home.
  • I'm sorry to hear about your predicament with Aisu. One thing is for sure, is that you've come to the best place on the internet regarding North American NihonKen owners if ever you needed rescue assistance.

    I hope everything works out well for Aisu.

    Jesse
  • Oh man. I'm so sorry to hear this. I hope he finds a great home.
  • edited August 2012
    Wow that really sucks, I wonder if Crispy would be interested? By the way where did you get your dogs? They look really similar to Carleens kishus.
  • sorry to hear about this.
  • edited August 2012
    @Aisu - did you get Aisu from Carleen? In these situations, breeders may help rehome dogs they've produced or may want to know they're going to a different home.

    but, that said... @shishiinu is right - I'd love an adult Kishu to rescue! I love puppies, but I know puppies tend to be a little easier to place than adults (especially if they have history or behavior issues). I was looking for a female, since I have two boys already (one is a little more combative, the other is "bombproof")... but if you think my home would be a good fit, we can always try introductions for all the boys. I'm open to answering any questions or... whatever application process you've decided is best for Aisu.

    Where in MA are you? I mentioned in your intro post that I'm a little north of Providence, RI, but I work in Bellingham, MA.
  • I have a question to the forum at large about the video of the Kishu pups.

    Do you guys really consider this playing?
  • IMHO I don't see it as playing. My kishu litter never played that way and even if they got a little carried away, yuki usually stepped in to stop it right away. I'm guessing yuki's pups are not too bad at meeting new dogs or puppies although they have crazy prey drive due to their hunting lines (I'm sure they are a pain in the ass at times though).

    Nami (yushoku kishu pup) was a little aggressive toward other puppies but she gets along great with other dogs but probably due to my brothers excellent work on her social skills.
  • @ayk - I was actually watching that video earlier and it concerned me a little. I would not have let those pups go on like that. It's not even "rough play" in my book.
  • If those two pups were mine I would have stopped them. Looked like a dominance struggle and neither pup would give in.
  • That really sucks about Aisu, I hope you find him a good home.

    That video looks more like arguing/bullying than actual play, it did start with them both wanting a high valued item (a glove I think). Wasn't necessarily a fight either, as there doesn't seem to be any punctures or blood. My pups rough play all of the time, so rough in fact where people think they are fighting, and it doesn't look nearly as intense as what those two pups are displaying. Heck, my one pup got to play with a Kishu and it didn't get nearly that intense (and that Kishu comes from prey driven hunting lines).
  • I hope you find a good home for your Kishu.

    That video does not look like play. Some of it does at times, but most of it, no. Looks more like disagreements/bullying. I wouldn't have let puppies go on like that, regardless of the breed or "how they play".
  • edited August 2012
    Hope there is a special place for your dog where he gets the care and management he needs to be fulfilled.

    About the video....Oh ick.....That's just ridiculous bullying, the entire 7 minutes amounted to sparing until exhaustion sets in. They should have had intervention and been broken apart and redirected within the first minute(s). This type of behavior does not serve any purpose to benefit training. As they mature it probably won't be pretty and make it pretty darned difficult for socialization with other dogs. Hope they found homes where it was less of an issue.

    Snf
  • edited August 2012
    Yeah the two pups reminded me of the B&T shiba pups at the Madison WI shiba picnic the breeder had to break them up they stopped when she clapped, but at one point she had to separated them they got too excited.

    I agree they should been stopped and redirected and if persisted separated for a bit.

    I hope Aisu gets a good home he is a handsome kishu.

    Sad he got pushed to bite by the kid. I'm always strict with hyper kids who are kind to get in dogs face if they can't calm down they can't see my dogs.

    Saya loves kids, but I'm not taking chance if the kid decides to punch or get too rough with her..
  • Ha Ann! I was going to ask the same thing but I didn't want to distract on the rescue efforts for Aisu. That much neck-grabbing and kill shaking had me on edge the whole time I was watching the video.

    Jesse
  • Yea, no, that's not play. That's resource guarding that tipped into a fight. I had not watched the video yet... I played it, and Jen came in from the other room and said "was that you or were some of our dogs fighting?" ... I said "it was supposed to be a video of Kishu playing" .. She said "I don't even have to see the video to tell you that's not play."
  • I'm also chiming in with it being a fight. It alarmed me too--looks pretty much like what Bel has done when she's trying to kill a dog (ie. Toby) except, of course, she's drawing blood. But she's neck grabbing and kill shaking...and she means it.

    So yeah, I see that as a fight too, and I also wouldn't have let it go on, because dogs can get really hurt. And many dogs have long memories--a few squabbles that are really heated like that, and they keep escalating, and dogs get hurt. Or killed. :(

    But I do hope Aisu gets a home....
  • My spouse had roughly the same response as Brad's. That was a difficult seven minutes to sit through, and I have no idea how the person filming it didn't do something about it. But "their tails are wagging, so they must be happy, right?!"
  • Hope you find a good home for him!

    I too agree the video doesn't look like playing... well, the two in the background that are mostly just chasing each other look like they're playing to me, but the tussle looked like it probably started as play before the video started, but quickly turned into a power/resource struggle.

    Nevertheless, he's a good-looking dog and it has to be a hard decision to rehome him, but I think you came to the right place to find people knowledgeable about the breed. I'm certainly not, but I'm just here to learn haha.
  • That is heart breaking. Damn. He looks just like Tomoe. He's from that winter litter from Carleen's kennel, end of 2009 / beginning of 2010?
  • edited September 2012
    yes. he was born 3/1/10 in TX.

    I don't know the complete history. But we were offered the dog when he was a little over five months old. My guess is that he was returned, but that's not the story we got.

    Do you have a sibling from that litter?
  • So there seems to be a lot of contention over describing the puppy video as "play". I won't contribute further to that conversation but I can show you exactly how my dog plays. This is Aisu playing with his neighbor, a Wheaten Terrier. He sees this dog about every other day and they play like this every time they get together. They usually go for about 15 minutes until the Wheaton gets tired and makes it clear that he doesn't want to play any more.

    Maybe this is part of my problem, in that I let him play too rough. But we do a lot to socialize him with other dogs. He's just hit or miss. And this is dramatically different than when he fights with another dog. That usually involves a clamp-down bite on the neck, growling and shaking the other animal. It is totally different. It is violent and aggressive. And that is pretty much what happened when he bit the kid (described above).


  • That video is play and is very different than the other.
  • I agree with above looks like fun play.

    I love the video they look like best buddies.
  • My kishus play the same way in that second video. I don't think it's a kishu thing cause my older kishu Riki that passed away few months back was laid back and calm.

    It's a hit and miss with my dogs on what strange dog they get along with. Some dogs they like and others they don't. I feel like I did a ok job on socializing my dogs but I know my dogs aren't dogs I take to dog runs, they are strictly boar hunting dogs.

    I'm really sorry that Aisu isn't working out for you, I hope there is a place for him soon. Have you talked to Carleen at all? I wonder if she might know a better home for him.
  • Some of the big differences I've noticed between Aisu playing in your video and the pups arguing in the first video are contact and breaks. The pups rarely broke contact and only went for the neck, while Aisu was going for other areas of the body including the feet. Aisu and the Wheaten also took more breaks/breathers in a shorter amount of time than the pups, the pups stopped out of exhaustion while your guy stopped out of social respect. There's also a smoother flow with Aisu than the pups, pups were very stiff.
  • I'm really excited to meet Aisu! I'll be going up to see him soon and I'm sure I'll fall in love. He looks like he's having a blast with Bosun. I hope he's as happy to meet my boys. :)
  • Thanks to all for breaking down the differences between the videos. I don't pick up on those subtleties myself, but I do see them when you point them out.

    Carleen was not a ton of help with my issue. She essentially presented two solutions: pen him up or put him down. Neither of those are going to work for me. But if I cannot find a more suitable home for Aisu, I can just totally limit his exposure to new dogs and new people. That's complicated but I can do it. Reading Shishiinu's comments that he knows not to take these dogs to the dog park is encouraging.

    We'll see how it goes, but the situation is still workable while we figure it out. Thanks for all the support.
  • Carleen used to live in California, land of the sue-happy, so I understand why she won't re-home a known biter.
  • I agree with everyone on video #1, but I see video #2 a bit differently than you guys do.

    I do think Aisu IS certainly playing in the second video, but I think Bosun is not reciprocating equally, and seems to be trying to get away from Aisu. He seeks his owner a couple times, Aisu persists. There are breaks, but only Aisu shakes off- Bosun is not relaxing or destressing. Bosun is almost always on the ground, on his back, backing up, seeking the humans or moving away then whirling around when Aisu bites his leg & keeps going for him.

    I dont think Aisu wants to hurt the terrier at all, but I think Aisu enjoys this play a lot more than the Wheaten does. I dont think the Wheaten has the weight of personality to tell Aisu to tone it down and have him listen. Bosun is overwhelmed but cannot stop Aisu except by trying to avoid, look away, follow the people away- he is not 'safe' enough to shake off for a sec.

    I disagree that Aisu shows much social respect, I dont think Aisu give a flying fig that Bosun is uncomfortable and if I were Bosun's owner I wouldnt let this continue. I dont think Aisu will hurt the terrier, unless Bosun finally cracks and sticks up for himself.
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