Good videos of your Laikas, @brada1878. Maybe I should had spent the money already spent on the Jervenbag on the GoPro instead.
You might find this excerpt from "From Puppy to Hunting Dog" (2008) by Heidi Lahtinen interesting:
What sort of fitness condition and skills are needed? A The dog At a LINT trial the dog should be able to mainly run for about three hours without any long breaks. The dog should make contact with his handler in an ideal case every 5-15 minutes and should search for the birds far enough away that the people in the group will not scare them off.
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In both trial types the dog must stop working and allow himself to be put on a lead when the trial is over. When the dog is young he should learn that sometimes he will go to the forest as part of a bigger group, not just on his own with his handler.
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A radio collar At a LINT trial the dog can wear one round his neck but it cannot be used until the trial is over.
Here's a recent Orry pic off-lead at one of our favorite spots. Due to his age, I still use a combo of off and on lead hiking as I want him to get used to both. He does very well overall, but I do have one behavioral question that has come up recently.
Off-lead he's very dog social, in fact, the hardest part is getting him to not follow another dog going in the opposite direction. Around people, he's a bit more suspicious though. Going up the trail, if we pass a person he's fine...a bit aloof but he'll let them pet him. Once this initial meeting has occurred, he's very outgoing, and will even go back to that same person if we happen to see him or her again on our outing.
However, for whatever reason, he's much more shy on the way down. If he sees a person coming up in the distance, he just sits and watches them and doesn't want to move. If an oncoming hiker happens to come around a corner in a less open area, he's even more shy and he has the tendency to want to go back up the trail. Just curious if any of the "off-leaders" here have encountered this behavior and have ideas on how to correct it. I'm thinking that it's just a phase during his "fear" period (he's 5 months) that will pass, because he's otherwise fairly social with people on walks near our home, around town, and so forth. And as I said, once he knows you he's very friendly...he'd practically run up the whole mountain just to say hi. I've tried luring him with treats, but he doesn't seem too interested when he's in this "thinking" state.
Thanks @cdenney. My instinct has also been to releash him, however, I've typically let him focus in on the hikers. I like your suggestion of trying to keep his attention on me. I may have to use a ball or stick as a distraction since treats don't seem to be enough. Because he's so good off lead otherwise, I'm still thinking/hoping this is just a phase!
@MontanaKai - That's another great picture of Orray! (and I plan to steal it too)
WRT your question, that's an interesting one. Do you hike with treats? Will he take treats from you in this situation? If you don't hike with treats, I'd start and only pull them out and treat him when you see someone approaching. That may help build a positive association for him w/ seeing people coming toward him.
I've noticed that our dogs behave differently when we are going out vs. coming back. When we are going up the trail it's an adventure and new(ish) to them. But on the way back, they know where we are going and they seem to rush a little more - not paying as much attention to their surroundings. Like they have a goal of just getting back - and that is their mission.
I wonder if this is the case with Orry. Maybe he is so preoccupied with getting back that he is surprised by the people?
Both Ayu and Nio LOVE treats and work well for them - so I think treating him will probably go a long way in improving his reaction to the people coming up the trail.
I know you're in bear country, so I can see why you may hesitate about taking stinky dog treats along on your hikes... But I think socializing and training a Yamabushi pup is way more important than owner's safety. So I'm ok with you taking the treats along. :P
No, really, be sure to keep them in a good airtight container.
@brada1878 Feel free to steal away! One of these days I'm going to get a nice camera for these photos. I still use my phone, since my wife sent our last camera through the wash...oops.
Orry's generally very treat motivated, and I do bring them along on hikes, but he gets distracted enough in this situation that he mostly ignores the treat. I think I'll try bringing a higher value treat and maybe that will help....you know, something that the bears will like too, lol. I'll just make sure to bring some heavier rounds along with them!
It's strange, but I really think it has something to do with going back as opposed to going out. At least that's the only time I've noticed it. It also seems to happen on a narrow part of the trail, so maybe he simply feels a bit more trapped. He's been social around people in all other situations, so I really don't think it's simply him being shy...some other trigger is involved.
I'll keep going with the treats, and hopefully with time he'll become more confident in these situations.
@MontanaKai - Him not taking treats is a little worrisome, but try some higher value ones and see if that helps. Keep me posted, I'm curious about this now. Also, maybe try to catch him and treat him before he notices the other people (if at all possible).
Various strategies for your toolbox- Id say if he hesitates, let him think. Support him by calling out a cheerful greeting to the people like you already know them and are glad to see them again.
You can ask him for a sit or somethign he knows so he has somethign to do ("cant talk right now, dad needs me to do somehting") takes some pressure off, but he may not want to comply, so dont force it.
What I do not advocate is standing still and absorbing the 'hit' so to speak, waiting to see what happens, or rushing him along through it. If he is quiet but just reserved, greet the other hiker yourself and stand around talking casually, tell them to just ignore Orry until he initiates contact.. (meaning, some people will reach out to him and talk and coo and you dont want them to do that because it puts pressure on him) This works great with Juno who does like people, but likes to assess things, observe and get curious first- if they ignore her, she is right up sniffing them and then will accept petting or try to snifff/lick, If they let her make the first move.
If he seems afraid, create distance- I think when kai are scared, you need to play them like a fish- give them slack and go with them, then work back in when its right. This may look like: we hear people coming, Orry hesitates and 'chuffs' and looks to you, you step nearhim/leash him, feed him smelly treats (you may have to put them right at his nose- but dont worry- he just needs to have foody goodness in asociation with new people, dont hold out for a behavior- and call out cheerfully "Helloo! Howzit goin? We're training and my pup's a little shy so dont look right at him, just let him come over." and have a boring grownup conversation about how far to the top or the weather or how much you like some gear or other while Orry looks away from the hiker. I find that if I shake hands with a stranger, it has a very favorable impression on my dogs and they want to check them out right away. This is friendlier than I was raised to be, but for my dogs, I will even buck my lukewarm Yankee upbringing!
My guys are so used to not meeting anyone in the woods that it is unexpected and I have to be a bit deliberate when we go on a popular trail. That said Juno was so much more bored with seeing other hikers by the end of the season than at the beginning of the season.
At this point you are trying to ensure he doesnt get 'pushed' too far and choose to bark and flee and decide he find that a more comfortable strategy and I think your support in this situation will help that a lot. He is on the deciding seesaw it sounds like. Some people will say to step off trail with him, leash and treat him rapidly, stuff-a-dog, and have the hiker go on by, and that is A plan- but it sounds to me like you might not be there yet- that he is still curious and therefore I am going with he just needs more time and distance and clear cues from you that all is safe and normal, and if you can tip that seesaw to "cool stuff happens when other hikers appear" then great!!! IF it seems this isnt helping then go to stuff-a-dog.
If you can, you may also try hiking together with friends, so theres more people in your party with Orry. Then the addition of a passing strnager may seem less of a contrast and he will have already gotten comfortable with those in the party.
Our hike last night went really well! I had Orry off-lead all the way up and 2/3 of the way down. He did so well up, in fact, that when we approached two male hikers going in the same direction, he hurried about 10-15ft in front of me to go greet them. It's amazing how well he does going out.
On the way down, we passed a few people at the top of the trail without any issues, and then didn't see anyone the rest of the way. While we were sitting at one point at a lookout area, he did bark at a guy who came out of the trees from a higher point, but then he settled down pretty quickly. He did this in more of a protective way, which I considered acceptable. I talked with the guy for a moment as I fed Orry some treats, which he gladly took.
@cdenney I used string cheese, which he loved. However, I had a major fail. About halfway down, as I was distracted at one point, he grabbed the remaining chunk (over half of it) out of my hand! Yes, that's how much he liked it...such a thief! I never would have given him so much, and I think it may have upset his stomach a bit. He was up whining several times in the night, which he hasn't done since we first got him. Was Sachi ever sensitive to it at first? I think it was the quantity that was the issue. I really want to use it again since it kept him fixated on me the whole time.
@WrylyBrindle He is definitely on the decision seesaw as you put it. You're right, I don't think I need to pull him off the trail yet, especially because he does so well in only slightly different scenarios. In looking back, I probably absorbed the "hit" too much the first few times he hesitated. Last night, I was much more engaged and deliberate, and maybe that's what made the difference (along with the cheese of course). Thanks for tools!
Sounds like you are doing really well! Good job! and Good Job, Orry! I want to see you guys do well hiking, so don;t hesitate to ask or to celebrate about trail interactions. We cant take good trail manners and comfort for granted, so please keep posting about Orry's alpine adventures. Matsu wont be climbing the peaks till the snow melts, so we'll be a bit behind you with that.
Wasn't there a marketing campaign once about "The Power of Cheese" ?
------ We were out on the trail this morning and I was thinking about the difference in @brada1878 s videos between Haru and Nio/Ayu. I need to go thru my videos and put some up (OffLead Kai 2: the Next Generation!) because their tendencies carry on to their offspring evidently- Juno (my Haru pup) ranges farther and hunts like her mother (she is just like her mother in many ways), but Matsu (Nio x Ayu) sticks close to me and he never misses a recall or a check in, sticking around for affection. My girls will check in but have no time for lovin's.
I put him right on a snowshoe hare track this morning that the girls were following through the thick balsams and he sniffed and said "Cool..." but just watched the girls and wouldnt leave my side, looking back at me and back to the girls thru the trees (I think lure coursing will NOT be his sport LOL but I am taking him to a barn hunt fun test in April, so we'll see if some live prey flicks a switch) so I think he will be a loyal packing dog and enjoy more handler-intensive activities. When the girls came back sans bunny, he pounced at them like "Hey! If you're going to make me worry like that, at least bring back some vittles!"
Heh, yeah, strong cheese is how I got Conker to pass the CGC. I used it during the training, and right before the test, so my hands stunk of it. He still thought he was gonna get a chunk after each segment of the test, so I guess my ruse worked! I keep forgetting to take it hiking though... Conker has NO interest in regular treats on a hike when something's up. He'll take them then drop 'em and keep doing whatever it is I didn't want him to do. I bet cheese would work, if only for a few more seconds than a regular doggy treat.
The biggest thing for me is to not get (negatively) worked up over someone approaching. If I do that, Conker's reaction to someone will (usually) be more intense. If I start thinking "Oh great, here comes a person, yay." and show any outward signs of annoyance, Conker will pick up on that and instantly get defensive. So I have to tell myself that it's no big deal, act cheerful and happy to see that person, and Conker will be more likely to accept their presence, at a distance of course.
@Wrylybrindle I feel like that when my dogs chase after something (as long as it's not like, a horse). If you're gonna chase it, you might as well catch it and bring it back to me! Juneau is way bad about this at times, taking off with no warning. Conker goes through a little ritual when he sees something so I know to call him to me before he gives chase.
@montanakai no but she is full grown so one stick isnt too bad for her, chicken screws her up and raw beef if not paired with rice can be too rich. ive been playing with string cheese brands to see which are better to digest and ended up on lucerne? 2% which i think is just more "real" cheese than say polly-o which i think is more fake and perhaps a bit sloppier out the other side. but now we know, cheese is high value but smaller amounts for now.
on a different note, my dog just ate some collard greens so while she is hardly impervious to stomach issues she seems pretty hardy to different things.
Great pictures and videos! It was so stressful taking Ren on her first off leash hike, not so much in a "I hope she comes back" way, but more of a "I hope she will listen when I call her off if we come across something dangerous". She proved herself reliable though, so we're going to do some more off leash hiking. A few days ago I started letting her out of the backyard fence so that we could sprint around our small lake together and she did well. If she's not listening right away when I call her then I'll just run away from her and she'll get the idea of "OH I better catch up". There are also several friendly dogs in other fenced back yards around the lake which she's been trying to get to play with which is really cool. First dogs she's wanted to play with since my sister's pup.
Great videos @brada1878! Really interesting to see the ranging styles of the different breeds. Do you ever take Luytiy out or is he more content to stay at home?
I love watching breeds that aren't typically considered "reliable" off lead proving breed stereotypes wrong. Someone told me they were horrified that I let London off lead while hiking. London might range a little far, but he always checks back in with me and he's a great hiking dog. I'll video him next time.
My hope is that some day, Takoda and I will have a good enough relationship where I will be able to take him off lead during wooded hikes. I'm not holding my breath, but he's already proven that he's all about me when we're out in distraction-heavy environments... so maybe. Someday. (Maybe).
Took some video of my hike with Nio and Haru today. Thought I'd share it, and a story...
So, this hike didn't go so great. Nio and Haru got wind of something and took off on me. Haru came back after about 10 minutes but Nio never did. I was pretty worried, he's never run off like that. I stuck around for awhile calling him and making noise but he never showed up... So I called Jen to tell her to keep an eye out for him in case he showed up at home... and while on the phone with her, she looked out the window and there he was!! LOL ... I guess he got separated from us and just ran home - good boy! He was about 3 miles from homes too!
Wow, good boy Nio for going back home, but bad for running off in the first place! Conker has done this a few times on hikes, he goes back to the parking lot if he can't find me. Usually the one I didn't park at, so I have to go get him then hike back to the Jeep. Or I discover I'm not at the right one and hike/drive to the other to find him.
I'm just catching up on threads and skimmed thru a lot but wanted to chime in with Kunai that the ONLY thing we have found that he will take for treats outside (inside he'll eat almost anything) is sliced deli turkey sandwich meat. Everything else he will litterally spit out, lol.
Comments
You might find this excerpt from "From Puppy to Hunting Dog" (2008) by Heidi Lahtinen interesting: Source: http://www.spj.fi/en/online+journal/from+puppy+to+hunting+dog/
Off-lead he's very dog social, in fact, the hardest part is getting him to not follow another dog going in the opposite direction. Around people, he's a bit more suspicious though. Going up the trail, if we pass a person he's fine...a bit aloof but he'll let them pet him. Once this initial meeting has occurred, he's very outgoing, and will even go back to that same person if we happen to see him or her again on our outing.
However, for whatever reason, he's much more shy on the way down. If he sees a person coming up in the distance, he just sits and watches them and doesn't want to move. If an oncoming hiker happens to come around a corner in a less open area, he's even more shy and he has the tendency to want to go back up the trail. Just curious if any of the "off-leaders" here have encountered this behavior and have ideas on how to correct it. I'm thinking that it's just a phase during his "fear" period (he's 5 months) that will pass, because he's otherwise fairly social with people on walks near our home, around town, and so forth. And as I said, once he knows you he's very friendly...he'd practically run up the whole mountain just to say hi. I've tried luring him with treats, but he doesn't seem too interested when he's in this "thinking" state.
WRT your question, that's an interesting one. Do you hike with treats? Will he take treats from you in this situation? If you don't hike with treats, I'd start and only pull them out and treat him when you see someone approaching. That may help build a positive association for him w/ seeing people coming toward him.
I've noticed that our dogs behave differently when we are going out vs. coming back. When we are going up the trail it's an adventure and new(ish) to them. But on the way back, they know where we are going and they seem to rush a little more - not paying as much attention to their surroundings. Like they have a goal of just getting back - and that is their mission.
I wonder if this is the case with Orry. Maybe he is so preoccupied with getting back that he is surprised by the people?
I know you're in bear country, so I can see why you may hesitate about taking stinky dog treats along on your hikes... But I think socializing and training a Yamabushi pup is way more important than owner's safety. So I'm ok with you taking the treats along. :P
No, really, be sure to keep them in a good airtight container.
Orry's generally very treat motivated, and I do bring them along on hikes, but he gets distracted enough in this situation that he mostly ignores the treat. I think I'll try bringing a higher value treat and maybe that will help....you know, something that the bears will like too, lol. I'll just make sure to bring some heavier rounds along with them!
It's strange, but I really think it has something to do with going back as opposed to going out. At least that's the only time I've noticed it. It also seems to happen on a narrow part of the trail, so maybe he simply feels a bit more trapped. He's been social around people in all other situations, so I really don't think it's simply him being shy...some other trigger is involved.
I'll keep going with the treats, and hopefully with time he'll become more confident in these situations.
Another awesome, blue sky day here, so we'll be hiking this afternoon!
You can ask him for a sit or somethign he knows so he has somethign to do ("cant talk right now, dad needs me to do somehting") takes some pressure off, but he may not want to comply, so dont force it.
What I do not advocate is standing still and absorbing the 'hit' so to speak, waiting to see what happens, or rushing him along through it. If he is quiet but just reserved, greet the other hiker yourself and stand around talking casually, tell them to just ignore Orry until he initiates contact.. (meaning, some people will reach out to him and talk and coo and you dont want them to do that because it puts pressure on him) This works great with Juno who does like people, but likes to assess things, observe and get curious first- if they ignore her, she is right up sniffing them and then will accept petting or try to snifff/lick, If they let her make the first move.
If he seems afraid, create distance- I think when kai are scared, you need to play them like a fish- give them slack and go with them, then work back in when its right. This may look like: we hear people coming, Orry hesitates and 'chuffs' and looks to you, you step nearhim/leash him, feed him smelly treats (you may have to put them right at his nose- but dont worry- he just needs to have foody goodness in asociation with new people, dont hold out for a behavior- and call out cheerfully "Helloo! Howzit goin? We're training and my pup's a little shy so dont look right at him, just let him come over." and have a boring grownup conversation about how far to the top or the weather or how much you like some gear or other while Orry looks away from the hiker. I find that if I shake hands with a stranger, it has a very favorable impression on my dogs and they want to check them out right away. This is friendlier than I was raised to be, but for my dogs, I will even buck my lukewarm Yankee upbringing!
My guys are so used to not meeting anyone in the woods that it is unexpected and I have to be a bit deliberate when we go on a popular trail. That said Juno was so much more bored with seeing other hikers by the end of the season than at the beginning of the season.
At this point you are trying to ensure he doesnt get 'pushed' too far and choose to bark and flee and decide he find that a more comfortable strategy and I think your support in this situation will help that a lot. He is on the deciding seesaw it sounds like. Some people will say to step off trail with him, leash and treat him rapidly, stuff-a-dog, and have the hiker go on by, and that is A plan- but it sounds to me like you might not be there yet- that he is still curious and therefore I am going with he just needs more time and distance and clear cues from you that all is safe and normal, and if you can tip that seesaw to "cool stuff happens when other hikers appear" then great!!! IF it seems this isnt helping then go to stuff-a-dog.
If you can, you may also try hiking together with friends, so theres more people in your party with Orry. Then the addition of a passing strnager may seem less of a contrast and he will have already gotten comfortable with those in the party.
Our hike last night went really well! I had Orry off-lead all the way up and 2/3 of the way down. He did so well up, in fact, that when we approached two male hikers going in the same direction, he hurried about 10-15ft in front of me to go greet them. It's amazing how well he does going out.
On the way down, we passed a few people at the top of the trail without any issues, and then didn't see anyone the rest of the way. While we were sitting at one point at a lookout area, he did bark at a guy who came out of the trees from a higher point, but then he settled down pretty quickly. He did this in more of a protective way, which I considered acceptable. I talked with the guy for a moment as I fed Orry some treats, which he gladly took.
@cdenney I used string cheese, which he loved. However, I had a major fail. About halfway down, as I was distracted at one point, he grabbed the remaining chunk (over half of it) out of my hand! Yes, that's how much he liked it...such a thief! I never would have given him so much, and I think it may have upset his stomach a bit. He was up whining several times in the night, which he hasn't done since we first got him. Was Sachi ever sensitive to it at first? I think it was the quantity that was the issue. I really want to use it again since it kept him fixated on me the whole time.
@WrylyBrindle He is definitely on the decision seesaw as you put it. You're right, I don't think I need to pull him off the trail yet, especially because he does so well in only slightly different scenarios. In looking back, I probably absorbed the "hit" too much the first few times he hesitated. Last night, I was much more engaged and deliberate, and maybe that's what made the difference (along with the cheese of course). Thanks for tools!
Wasn't there a marketing campaign once about "The Power of Cheese" ?
------
We were out on the trail this morning and I was thinking about the difference in @brada1878 s videos between Haru and Nio/Ayu. I need to go thru my videos and put some up (OffLead Kai 2: the Next Generation!) because their tendencies carry on to their offspring evidently- Juno (my Haru pup) ranges farther and hunts like her mother (she is just like her mother in many ways), but Matsu (Nio x Ayu) sticks close to me and he never misses a recall or a check in, sticking around for affection. My girls will check in but have no time for lovin's.
I put him right on a snowshoe hare track this morning that the girls were following through the thick balsams and he sniffed and said "Cool..." but just watched the girls and wouldnt leave my side, looking back at me and back to the girls thru the trees (I think lure coursing will NOT be his sport LOL but I am taking him to a barn hunt fun test in April, so we'll see if some live prey flicks a switch) so I think he will be a loyal packing dog and enjoy more handler-intensive activities. When the girls came back sans bunny, he pounced at them like "Hey! If you're going to make me worry like that, at least bring back some vittles!"
I keep forgetting to take it hiking though... Conker has NO interest in regular treats on a hike when something's up. He'll take them then drop 'em and keep doing whatever it is I didn't want him to do. I bet cheese would work, if only for a few more seconds than a regular doggy treat.
The biggest thing for me is to not get (negatively) worked up over someone approaching. If I do that, Conker's reaction to someone will (usually) be more intense. If I start thinking "Oh great, here comes a person, yay." and show any outward signs of annoyance, Conker will pick up on that and instantly get defensive. So I have to tell myself that it's no big deal, act cheerful and happy to see that person, and Conker will be more likely to accept their presence, at a distance of course.
@Wrylybrindle I feel like that when my dogs chase after something (as long as it's not like, a horse). If you're gonna chase it, you might as well catch it and bring it back to me! Juneau is way bad about this at times, taking off with no warning. Conker goes through a little ritual when he sees something so I know to call him to me before he gives chase.
on a different note, my dog just ate some collard greens so while she is hardly impervious to stomach issues she seems pretty hardy to different things.
Great videos @brada1878! Really interesting to see the ranging styles of the different breeds. Do you ever take Luytiy out or is he more content to stay at home?
My hope is that some day, Takoda and I will have a good enough relationship where I will be able to take him off lead during wooded hikes. I'm not holding my breath, but he's already proven that he's all about me when we're out in distraction-heavy environments... so maybe. Someday. (Maybe).
So, this hike didn't go so great. Nio and Haru got wind of something and took off on me. Haru came back after about 10 minutes but Nio never did. I was pretty worried, he's never run off like that. I stuck around for awhile calling him and making noise but he never showed up... So I called Jen to tell her to keep an eye out for him in case he showed up at home... and while on the phone with her, she looked out the window and there he was!! LOL ... I guess he got separated from us and just ran home - good boy! He was about 3 miles from homes too!
Conker has done this a few times on hikes, he goes back to the parking lot if he can't find me. Usually the one I didn't park at, so I have to go get him then hike back to the Jeep. Or I discover I'm not at the right one and hike/drive to the other to find him.
I think it's kinda strange how you can hear my heartbeat when it's mounted to my chest...