# Rough Play Hi, I'm noticing that Sasuke likes to play really rough. It took us awhile for him to actually play a few games with us but now he plays really rough. For example: while playing tug-o-war, although he has the other end in his mouth, he would try to get the one on my hand and bites it. He would also… ## Thread In Behavior · started by Zinja · 36 replies - **Category:** [Behavior](https://nihonken.org/community/c/behavior) - **Forum:** [Nihon Ken Forum](https://nihonken.org/community/) ## Zinja · 2009-01-09T11:38:10.000Z Hi, I'm noticing that Sasuke likes to play really rough. It took us awhile for him to actually play a few games with us but now he plays really rough. For example: while playing tug-o-war, although he has the other end in his mouth, he would try to get the one on my hand and bites it. He would also nip small playful bites into my arm and hands. While I am walking, he would bite our feet, especially the back of the foot. After I ask him to "drop it," he would drop the toy in front of him and watch it carefully. If I make any moves to try to get the toy, he would try to nip my hand. I've been ignoring him when he does this. This is all play but it's starting to hurt after getting bit a few times in the same area. I have been trying to teach him "Ouch!" when he bites too hard, I would leave the room. I would then come back to him chewing something inappropriate. A few minutes later, he would try to bite me again. I'm trying to get him to understand the power of his jaw first and then eliminating the behavior all together. I took him to Petco for puppy socialization classes and the trainer said Sasuke shows the most teeth when playing out of all the puppies he has seen. Sasuke also plays rough with a lot of the puppies his size. I will try to see if I can get my friends to arrange a play date with Sasuke so he can try to control his biting. The dogs that I would like to use are a Shepard/Husky, Pit Bull, and Doberman, all of which are well trained. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! ## KFontaine04 · 2009-01-09T11:41:23.000Z He's a SHIBA and a PUPPY! They play rough (see Ryu's play video with Roxy), it's all teeth and snarls, but it's all play! Just keep up the socialization and reward him when he obeys commands like "drop it" or "OUCH!" Sake was ALL teeth and biting up until about 2 weeks ago, now she is not so mouthy. Maybe it's a teething thing? ## brandon_w (admin) · 2009-01-09T11:46:22.000Z Instead of trying to just grab a toy from him after getting him to drop it. Reward Sasuke with a treat for dropping the toy, and as you put the treat in his mouth grab the toy with your other hand. Biting at the hand that holds the toy while playing tug-o-war is pretty common. He isn't biting you to get you to drop it, he is trying to get a better grip and steal the toy away from you. Shibas (and I think most puppies) are very, very mouthy. It's how they explore the world, with their sharp little teeth. You could try rubbing some mouth wash on your hands before play sessions so that the taste of your hand is not a good one. ## sunyata · 2009-01-09T11:48:51.000Z Shibas by nature play rough. Really rough. However, as puppies, they should learn bite inhibition. When we first brought Nola home, she would inhibit her bite with Bella, but not with Eric or myself. We curbed this habit of nipping by screeching. Yes SCREECHING. Puppies understand their own language a lot better than they understand ours. Therefore, saying "ouch" usually does not mean anything to a dog. Especially a Shiba. Ever hear a Shiba scream? Mimmick this sound when Sasuke uses his teeth. And do it EVERY time. No matter how hard he nips or bites. You want him to understand that using his teeth in any way with a human is bad. Once you shriek, ignore him for a few minutes. Make sure he understands that as soon as he uses his teeth, playtime is over. For instance: Playing tug of war --> Sasuke drops the rope --> You reach for it --> He puts his mouth on your hand --> You Screech --> You walk away without another word or glance --> Sasuke pouts. This may take a few days or even weeks to click in his head, but he seems like a smart one, so hopefully it will only take a couple of days. Every once in a while we have to remind Nola that using teeth on people results in immediate termination of any attention. She usually gets it after the first time now. Since Sasuke is a rescue, it may take a little longer to break his bad habits. Just be patient and consistent. ## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2009-01-09T11:57:41.000Z Is Sasuke allowed to play with your other dogs? ## Zinja · 2009-01-09T12:06:10.000Z A side note: I was playing with him yesterday and after he bit me, I said "ouch" and walked upstairs to get some laundry. About 40 seconds later on my way back down, I saw that he got a single bite on my $400 cell phone screen! It's touch screen so the actual screen is pretty thin.... Now I have to buy a new phone :( When the owners surrendered him to me, they told me (as I was going to my car) that they thought it would have been funny to give him a sock one day... Now he'll try to grab the socks right off your feet! Brandon: I have been doing just as you have said. I have had a few successes but once he sees me have the toy, he would nip at my arm to try to get it.... That's when I leave, but it's hard because I usually come back to him chewing on a remote or something. Casey: You're idea about the Shiba scream sounds pretty interesting. My Kung Fu instructor actually said something similar the other day: Dogs usually do not know the word "no." I have tried Caesar Millan's "shht" but this hasn't been working that well. My Kung Fu instructor said that while he was training his German Shepard, he would growl at him like dogs do to let them know they did something bad. I haven't actually tried this because I'm kinda leery on the idea... Would this facilitate more aggression from the dog, such as growling back/snapping? Jen: Sasuke played with Ninja well. I also noticed that Ninja had a small patch of her hair on the side of her ear missing... It kinda looks like Sasuke pulled it out with his teeth. I heard Ninja bark at him a few times while playing but nothing very serious. Yokie, on the other hand, is about 16ish years old. She doesn't really play much anymore. I have seen him nip at her ears a few times. Also, while Yokie was walking, I've noticed Sasuke grab her by her sweater (bought it at Build-A-Bear lol) and pull her back a foot or so before I broke it up. I took him to the puppy socialization in Petco and the trainer had a male 1yr Poodle (that only spoke Russian) and they had about the same intensity level when they played. All smaller puppies hid around their owners while the two had at it. At the end, the Poodle's ears were drenched in Sasuke's saliva, it was nice to see them drinking at the same time though. I'm currently at my townhouse and will not have access to my other dogs until I go home for MLK weekend or something. His puppy classes do not start until next week. I'm afraid he might be too much of a bully if he goes to the puppy classes (>5months) so the trainer and I was thinking of bumping him up on the Basic classes (<5months) ## sunyata · 2009-01-09T12:12:13.000Z I would discourage growling at your dog... I would try the shrieking/screeching with the mouthing. It has helped tremendously with Nola. For corrections other than the nipping/biting while playing: Shibas do great with an "AHDT" or "AHHH" when they need to be corrected. Neither of my Shibas respond to "no". Any loud abrupt sound usually gets their attention. Once you have their attention, redirect them to something constructive and praise/treat. Just a suggestion... Keep your remotes, phones, shoes, etc. out of reach of your pup. This will not only save your stuff, your patience, but also your pup. ## brandon_w (admin) · 2009-01-09T12:20:02.000Z I would not be giving Sasuke so much freedom when you are not around (even for a minute) as they can and will destroy things, as you are learning. Keep him leashed to you as you go around the house doing chores, or put him in a crate with appropriate toys. Take him to the puppy class and let the trainers decide what is appropriate for him. It can be a long haul dealing with naughty Shibas. Just keep on working at it. ## Zinja · 2009-01-09T12:23:48.000Z Lol, I thought I did put the remotes/phones and stuff away from the puppy. I found out he jumps on smaller things to get to the higher things like cats... He would also push on things to make objects fall. Sometimes I'm amazed his intellect. I've tried having him leashed at me a few times... That's when I more or less found out he likes biting feet and grabbing the side of jeans... He's okay when we're outside though. ## JessicaRabbit (admin) · 2009-01-09T12:36:31.000Z I have been through ALL of this. My rescue shiba Moto did all of these things and drove me batty. When he nips in play. Stop playing. He will will eventually learn that if he wants the game to continue it needs to be on your terms. I would get a baby gate and have a room that is his spot when you can't keep an eye on him or an x pen. We have an x pen for Miko I know there are instructions on the forum somewhere on how to build one, I will dig that up. I just replaced my phone with the teethmarks. He also chewed on the handle of my $150 Mason Pearson hairbrush, my remote has teeth marks. My front door looks like a midget werewolf tried to get OUT of my house. Having a shiba, especially a rescue one, is like having the cutest most precious bad seed ever...And having lost my shiba in November, I will tell you that as infuriating as Sasuke is right now, treasure every single moment of it. ## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2009-01-09T12:40:16.000Z Young shibas certainly will teach you not to be materialistic! *oh, I asked about whether or not he is able to play with your other dogs because they will also be able to teach him valuable lessons, like bite inhibition, and he'll be able to play rough with them and learn that you are not of them and do not play by the same rules. These are valuable lessons for a young dog. ## KFontaine04 · 2009-01-09T12:41:02.000Z "My front door looks like a midget werewolf tried to get OUT of my house" I think all of our doors look like this...I know mine do! ## KFontaine04 · 2009-01-09T13:17:16.000Z Yup, thats what our door looks like too. Plus the door frame is chewed a bit. ## JessicaRabbit (admin) · 2009-01-09T14:01:47.000Z I will take a picture of my railing later. Presently it is wrapped in tin foil in an attempt to thwart Miko's chewing passion. Now she is peeling tin foil instead...ugh ## KFontaine04 · 2009-01-09T14:10:39.000Z LOL Jess. :P All of our furniature is chewed at the corners, lucky for me the dogs hate bitter apple! YAY. It's the only thing that has detered their chewing. ## sunyata · 2009-01-09T15:57:45.000Z Jess, my bedroom door looks like that from Bella pawing to get in when the door is shut. And can I ask... WHAT does a $150 hair brush do??? I mean, the most I have spent on a brush is maybe $20? ## JessicaRabbit (admin) · 2009-01-09T16:03:27.000Z Keep in mind I am a makeup artist and things like that are a write off for me... But the purchase of one Mason Pearson is amazing. Hair is softer, shinier, less likely to break, and easier to style. And aside from the teeth marks on the handle, I have had that brush for 8 years and will have it for many more. The average $20 brush will eventually stop working in about a year. ## brandon_w (admin) · 2009-01-09T16:05:07.000Z Who knew that hair brushes were like kitchen knives. You get out of them what you put into them (money wise). ## sunyata · 2009-01-09T16:15:33.000Z LOL! I have had my $20 since I first went to college... so 9 years? Of course, I have curly hair, and hardly ever brush it. Now knives, on the other hand... :) ## wliu003 · 2009-01-09T18:08:32.000Z my shiba is rough too, ESP with bigger breeds. she usually ignores smaller ones. i dont think theres much we can change right away but through consistent training they'll begin to play nice. i can take my shiba to dog parks and she'll play nice the MAJORITY of the time but once in a while she gets rough and i have to pull her aside. however shes never displayed any aggression towards me when we are playing and is careful about not biting me. especially when were playing fetch. i notice that she avoids my hand when shes trying to grab the toys. but i would say "NO" in a firm and confident voice to let him know that he did something wrong. ## starry · 2009-01-09T23:13:17.000Z toki, my 5 month old shiba, used to bite at my socks and my pant legs and jacket cuffs in addition to hands all the time. Then he spent 10 days with 3 maltese friends (slightly smaller than him) and he learned from the mama maltese what it feels like to be bitten, she bit him hard enough to elicit a whimper a few times. So then when he bit me I would whimper the way he did and now at most he'll sometimes mouth my hand to which I just say 'No' and he stops and I give him a toy...I think he needed to learn how much jaw pressure was too much pressure. As for the playing rough, when he first met the maltese he had no idea how to control himself, showed lots of teeth, ran around frantically excited, growled, barked, kept trying to bite their legs in play. Then he learned that not all dogs are play things and spent time picking on the little puppy who is roughly his age. He still played pretty rough with the little one, more than it was used to. So I took him to a park and there was a very well trained huge german shepherd who he tried to take her ball from and one massive bark from her put him right on his back. The owner of the german shepherd said that she normally would be more assertive but she still saw him as a puppy so he got let off pretty easy. What did NOT work was flipping him on his back and doing that dominance thing, he just go more agitated and bit more, shouting "NO" just made him frustrated, and growling at him once actually got a confused pup who yipped back and got into a play stance thinking I wanted to play. Get some pigs ears, toki is always up for chewing on those instead. ## hondru (moderator) · 2009-01-10T03:15:02.000Z When Tojo was a pup, he was really nippy. He would even play a game to see how close he could bite to my hand before I'd cut off the play and tested the boundaries of how hard he could bite numerous times. When he learned he wasn't allowed to bite at all, he'd see how much of a pretend bite he could do before he was in trouble. There was a mischevious glint in his eye and I knew he was testing me and if I wasn't consistent, he'd use it. Quite the little imp, he is. Anyway, I said "ouch" when he bit me and pulled my hands away, then he'd bite whatever part of my body he could reach, and if I walked away, he'd bite whatever item was closest to him. I cured him of his biting pretty much instantly when I said, "no biting!" and squirted breath freshener in his mouth. He ran around shaking his head for a few minutes and after that, anytime I said, "no biting!" he'd pull his head back and shake it a little. I really only had to do it the once, because after that, the threat was enough. ## Sangmort (moderator) · 2009-01-12T00:05:54.000Z Tojo sounds like he was a naughty puppy! :) ~ ## Zinja · 2009-01-12T02:10:47.000Z Interesting idea with the breath freshener. I had him zoned off in a section of my townhouse and after he bit me, I said "ow" and left... I came back to him doing it again ::sighs:: I'm also going to buy a go-phone and just replace my sim card before I get a nice expensive phone again lol I'm trying to get my friend's dogs to help me out... They are of all different breeds so he should learn a thing or two. My friend has a boston terrier and a pit bull, another has a husky/shepard and doberman... All are well trained. We played with a few dogs while on our walks today and Sasuke always was on top. My Akita did bark/growl at him one time when he nipped her ears. I think he just needs a few more of these encounters before I have him leashed at the dog park. ## Sangmort (moderator) · 2009-01-12T02:20:01.000Z You'll get there in the end Joe! I've a lo of faith in you. I'm guessing the little guy's previous "owners" [ I want to use a meaner word here ;p ] didn't teach him proper bite inhibition. [ along with the food guarding ] So all this means is you & the rest of your pack will have to work harder to teach him the rules of the house ;) How's his resource guarding going as well? ~ ## JessicaRabbit (admin) · 2009-01-12T11:06:22.000Z I would avoid breath freshener spray. It has been mentioned in past thread that it can cause some long term damage to the pup and also traumatize the pup. When in doubt, ask yourself, if you had a 18month old child, if someone corrected your child in that manner, how would you and your child react? ## Zinja · 2009-01-12T13:59:44.000Z My parents always threatened to put Chile in my mouth if I said a bad word... To this day, I have only said it a handful of times. He got my girlfriend pretty bad last night. I think she was walking and Sasuke nipped her pant legs a few times. She said "no" and went to another room. five minutes later or so, she came back and they were playing with his brand new kong ball... Sasuke nipped her thigh and scrapped her skin probably two inches. According to the book I'm reading, we allow him to bite us very softly, but if he got too rough, we would say "ouch" and stop play. The theory is to allow him to recognize the power of his bite before eliminating it all together. This has worked okay sometimes but other times we would stop then he would chase after our hands and/or bite our arm to get to our hands. Osy, his resource guarding is actually going pretty well, probably because he now has to beg me to get food. I'll update it on his thread because I don't want to hijack this thread. By the way, where do you go hiking? We fell in the springs in Gainesville a few days ago because a rock slipped when I was standing on it :( I really need to him to get better at "leave it" because almost bothered a snake on the trail, not sure what kind it was. ## JessicaRabbit (admin) · 2009-01-12T14:21:03.000Z I doubt you were saying bad words as a toddler. And an emotionally damaged dog stops developing at the age they sustained their traumas. The book is more on track. It isn't going to happen over night. Be patient and consistent. ## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2009-01-12T14:27:18.000Z I'm still trying to process all the info here, but it might help to hire a positive reinforcement based obedience trainer to help you redirect Sasuke when he gets over stimulated during play or bored and destructive. He is a growing puppy and based on his previous home, you have a lot of catching up to do. What is his DAILY exercise regimen like? And I think his play sessions with other well socialized, well behaved dogs that you or close friends own will only help him. Keep them happening! The growl correction by the akita is a GREAT example of the boundaries older dogs help set in younger dogs. Its an invaluable lesson for him! --- **Navigate:** [Forum home](https://nihonken.org/community/?format=md) · [Sitemap](https://nihonken.org/community/sitemap.xml)