# Hachi's issue (updated 8/11/08) If you don't already know, her backstory is that she was intended to be either a breeder dog or show dog, but was determined to be neither and was living at the breeders in their back yard/kennel run area until they decided to place her. They claim she is going to be 2 in October, so she lived outs… ## Thread In Behavior · started by tsukitsune · 49 replies - **Category:** [Behavior](https://nihonken.org/community/c/behavior) - **Forum:** [Nihon Ken Forum](https://nihonken.org/community/) ## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-08-01T12:33:15.000Z If you don't already know, her backstory is that she was intended to be either a breeder dog or show dog, but was determined to be neither and was living at the breeders in their back yard/kennel run area until they decided to place her. They claim she is going to be 2 in October, so she lived outside that long I'm assuming, or in a kennel... We took her in nearly 2 1/2 months ago and have made some progress.. she is nearly housebroken (except when spooked), she is leash trained and knows a few commands now and will do them for me, she knows her new name and has successfully been integrated with our other shibas, even if play is rare. Until last week, we let her do her thing and hide under our bed for a majority of the day (besides walks and feedings) until she started peeing under there after a thunderstorm. For these reasons, we have an exercise pen set up in the house in the living room that she is in for most of the day to get acquainted by the sounds and sights that are our daily lives. Since being in there, she has had some episodes where she will scream and try to dig her way out and mess in the pen set-up even though she is crate trained. We are trying not to give her attention during these times to not reinforce her actions in the pen. We will let her out when we feed or are reading or watching TV or playing with the other dogs, we block access to our bedroom now to force her to become acquainted with the other 'pack members'. She is very relaxed outside, is able to meet people and dogs on walks (not excited, but doesn't back away). I always have John walk her, and she doesn't mind it at all. We have pushed socialization and she is fabulous outside of our home, but once she is in, she goes into panic mode. She flees from men, which have been John and my brothers. She is very skittish of anything new or fast or loud movements/events when they are doing it, I can run at her and she won't care. At this point, we are still trying but my husband is starting to feel that she is just so detached from reality and so afraid of him that we might be fighting a losing battle. Believe me when I say that she has ALL the time in the world to come around, but if she doesn't, she is free to live with us for the rest of her life on her terms. I just know she has a very bright and cheery disposition when its just me, her and the other two shibas... and if we can do it, I want her to be that carefree all the time indoors with John. Yesterday I had my him umbilical leash her to him and he said initially it was pretty bad for her but after a while she calmed down but wouldn't look at him. We might do this in spurts here and there if it is beneficial, I'm still not sure. I've decided that perhaps having my husband clicker train her will be beneficial - since she is scared when he speaks or moves his arms, etc, perhaps clicker training will be less intimidating for her? But she will NOT take treats from him.. at all.. ever.. even though he feeds her the raw foods at mealtime! He literally holds the bone for her to eat. But other than this, we are at a loss of new ideas! ## ljowen123 (moderator) · 2008-08-01T12:59:23.000Z Does Hachi let you hold her? If so, pick her up (john would be sitting on the couch) and sit down next to John with Hachi away from John, but speaking to her. Once she's comfortable and not freaking out, you can move her closer, closer - until she's next to John. The goal is to be able to sit down next to John with Hachi on that side and not freak. Eventually you'll progress to when you sit down, Hachi is sitting in John's lap. ## StaticNfuzz · 2008-08-01T13:50:15.000Z Well it sounds like you have made a lot of progress so far. Don't lose sight of that when the chips are down. What you describe is not uncommon if she has not been acclimated to males prior to John and mostly lived as an outside dog. I understand your position since John feels the same way my husband did when we had a scared foster who would not go near him. He thought is was a losing battle too. (For the first three months this little dog hid under the Christmas tree, which btw did not get taken down til march that yr) She would run off or away from the couch the minute he sat down. Anyway, this little dog was adopted and did adjust to the male member of the new household (who had a booming voice). So I know that there is hope. It took probably 8 months to a yr or more. It takes patience and time, lots of it.! : / Ok with that being said...I think the screaming is probably more likely a tantrum and you really should not give in too much to that. Being Shiba she likes to make the choices about freedom and you will have to curb that. The behavior should fade eventually if hold strong. Maybe covering half the walls of the x-pen with a blank will make it a bit more secure feeling and maybe additionally a sleeping blanket or bed or a soft fabric house she can crawl into (so she can't use it to jump on/over) within the pen might help too. John has to act like he does not care (like she is not there), meaning his body language has to indicate he is not interested and he must maintain a stoic resolve. So I think you are starting it off right...since he is not the one she goes to he will be the one who needs to feed her and give treats like cheese spread tidbits on fingers etc. If she won't take it from his hand, he should use a wooden spoon to deliver the pasty food beside or behind. He will need to do this without looking at her face to face. The reaching out to feed or pet will have to come later sneaking it in with the finger food. Having him work her outside with the clicker to begin is a good start and then move indoors to work (think baby steps here). Make sure the clicker is muffled to begin with until you know her sound sensitivity. You don't want to scare her off at the start. Know that food does not have to be used to reward. Does she like chin scratches or a squeek toy. Whatever it it is that floats her boat can be use as a reward as long as you can deliver it soon after the click. Down the road once she has learned to associate things and you guys are more comfortable the duration between the click and reward can be lengthened, but not in the beginning. Ok that's it for starters.... Investigate Karen Pryors videos and items, like you plan to do .....it will be such a big help. I would also get some assistance from a trainer who had worked with shy dog so you can get some good tips. Snf ## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-08-01T14:10:31.000Z Thanks LJ! Yes, Hachi will let me handle her in any way, we once tried that, on the floor, because she peed on me once John sat down to my right while she was on my left lap half. So... we haven't pushed that sort of closeness since, I think we will have to figure out a way to do that in real small baby steps! SnF, thanks for the reassurance! At this point, its just so hard on my husband, he really tries to be there for our rescues and fosters and for me and he is a good man, so this is bringing him down a bit I think. I will let him read your comment so he knows there is certainly hope! And it has only been about 3 months, so I'm not expecting anything huge from her, I just to make sure we're doing everything we can for her correctly now so in the long run, she can be at peace with John in our home. The wooden spoon idea is awesome! And she is a fan of a good squeak toy, but she will only 'take' it from him if he throws it to her, not from him directly. We will keep plugging away! ## ljowen123 (moderator) · 2008-08-01T14:21:04.000Z On the sitting thing - having John sit first will make it less threatening for Hachi. We did this with Jazz because she was startled with my brother. It took almost four months until Jazz would willingly consent to Steve sitting beside her. While she still prefers my company, if I'm not home, she'll go search Steve out and lie down by his bed or chair. It does take baby steps and there will be days when you go backwords (like Steve carrying stuff, Jazz gets under his feet, he drops stuff, and she looks at him like it was on purpose). ## StaticNfuzz · 2008-08-01T14:25:42.000Z Oh about the spoon....I have several training spoons of of different materials and different lengths. I would have you start by treating her with pasty goods (spreadable cheese or peanut butter etc) on the spoon first and then John can pick up on that with the longest one for his part once you know she will take items off of the spoon readily for you. Snf ## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-08-01T14:26:53.000Z So true, LJ! We will try it again soon with John already sitting. There are times when he'll be napping on the couch and Hachi will lay near him on the head of the couch, but if he stirs, she's GONE! ## Sangmort (moderator) · 2008-08-01T16:44:11.000Z You've gotten some really good advice here. Hopefully everything will work out! Good luck <3! I'm sure Hachi will come around, it'll just take tons of time & effort :)~ ## Romi (admin) · 2008-08-01T19:46:16.000Z Jen - I actually have been experimenting with this training idea i though of a few weeks ago. I took Ninja and Portia to get their nails trimmed and Ninja was being a little jerk. So I decided I would hold Ninja in my arms while the groomer clipped his nails. Surprisingly Ninja calmed down and didn't even flinch when the groomer was clipping his nails. The groomer also pet his back a few times after she was done and when I put him down she gave him some treats and he took them from her hand without a problem. So - after lots of thinking...I thought that I would train (with my brother, you can use John). Ninja will take treats from people's hands but once they reach in to pet - he will back away. First I would give my brother treats - make ninja do some obedience and have him treat him. Then I picked up Ninja and had my brother give him a treat while in my arms. Then my brother would pet Ninja's back a few times and treat him again. Then I would put him down and have my brother do another obedience thing and treat him while on the ground. Keep in mind - John should never look directly in Hachi's eyes while doing this. Ninja is progressing slowly. He is used to me picking him up and having my brother pet him and getting treats for it. Although we are still working with being pet while on the ground. We are on the next step when I am sitting on the couch with ninja on my lap and repeating the same steps. BUT - if Hachi is clearly uncomfortable in your arms while John is near - do not force it on her - this can just make it worse. Since she will not take treats from John's hand - have him make her do a "sit" or "lay" and have him throw the treat to her. Then he can slowly move closer and closer over time and eventually she will probably take it from his hand. Or you can have John kneel down and turn his back to her and hold out his hand. This is less threatening and she will probably take it and then back away. If she does take it - he can slowly start turning towards her - and eventually be facing her without any issues from Hachi. This worked very well with Ninja - I would say it took about 1 month of strangers throwing treats at him - then he started getting curious of them and would approach them when they weren't looking at him. Then we would have the people turn their back and give him the treats and he took them - after that it took about 6-8 weeks for him to be comfortable with taking treats from people's hands face on. Ninja seems to be more comfortable with strangers while doing training - so I would always tell them to make him sit or lay down before giving him the treat - he is more eager to take the treat after earning it. I think I have a video of Ninja's training with my brother if you want to see it- i just have to upload it onto youtube. ## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-08-02T01:13:42.000Z Thank you Romi, truly! I think this is a fabulous idea, and since we're doing many things which Hachi in baby steps, we will do this during our daily routine with her too. My brother came over today and she barked at him! She hardly has barked at all since we got her! She barked then darted under a chair! I gave him treats to toss to her but she snubbed them... hopefully, with time, this too shall pass with her! At least when John tosses her treats she eats them! ## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-08-06T22:05:29.000Z SHE TOOK A TREAT FROM JOHN TODAY!!!!!! that is all... ## ddowdemers · 2008-08-06T22:40:28.000Z Hooray for Hachi......John too. ## _dlroberts · 2008-08-06T23:41:50.000Z Great to hear. :-) ## Sangmort (moderator) · 2008-08-07T01:18:06.000Z Yay! Progress! :D~ ## ljowen123 (moderator) · 2008-08-07T09:40:55.000Z Wonderful!! ## sunyata · 2008-08-07T11:03:24.000Z YAY HACHI! And John! :) ## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-08-07T11:32:06.000Z we were ecstatic! I was like "John, keep your head! Try it again" but he was so thrilled but I think she could tell, because she wouldn't do it again! ## StaticNfuzz · 2008-08-07T13:36:09.000Z woohooo!.....Have to laugh....baby steps, baby steps.....John has to remain stoic....Like he could care less (LOL). Really Really tough if you love dogs. Snf ## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-08-11T21:09:18.000Z we've been systematically trying to get her fear of John figured out, and have been 'forcing' her to spend time around him, either in the pen, and more recently from under a living room chair observing him. She used to retreat up the stairs under the bed but we've taken that option away from her for most of the day until they've been let out to pee for the last time and then she's allowed to retreat. I think its been paying off. she seems MUCH less afraid of John in general when she's downstairs with him. It might be that she's getting used to seeing him or his voice or watching what he does - he works from home so he's a constant in her day now. I really don't have much to back my theory except what I see, she comes to him - after some hesitation - and allows him to hook her up to go outside. She's only taken a treat from his hand once, but we're working up to number 2. She even started to get excited when he is playing with tsuki and kitsune... he seems less threatening to her when they are both interacting with him I think See: you can see some hesitation in her body movements, but he's not initiating touch or anything unless she asks for it (ie. by jumping up on him). So thats my update! I know its probably boring, because these seem like trivial things but to us, they are milestones! ## ddowdemers · 2008-08-11T21:24:51.000Z that's huge...Good for you two. ## _dlroberts · 2008-08-11T21:31:51.000Z :-) ## Romi (admin) · 2008-08-11T21:33:01.000Z Wow, the fact that she jumped up at him and let him pet her is amazing. From that observation, I would never think she was fearful of him at all. Fearful dogs will never approach let alone jump up on someone they are afraid of. They might go up to sniff while the person is not facing them, but once they give eye contact or turn towards them, they instantly back off. Great Job guys. ## Leonberger (admin) · 2008-08-11T21:45:18.000Z That's great! Keep it up, I think you'll see a huge improvement sooner than you might think. One of these days they'll be inseparable! ## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-08-11T22:22:16.000Z Thanks! Romi, I know... but thats the thing, we can't figure out WHAT/WHEN/HOW/WHY she is scared about him!!! I don't know if 'fear' is the right term b/c it is so broad, but thats what I see when she goes into panic mode - fear. I was considering taking a video of John trying to get Hachi to come to him while he is standing or goes from sitting to standing or standing to sitting, she freaks. I hesitate to film it for opinion because it could be construed as harming her or something like that. In fact, yesterday, we got the dogs ready for a walk, John had her harnessed holding her collar and stood up and she pooped right where she was standing in total fear. So each step forward comes with 2 or 3 back but we video the good ones to remind ourselves of what she will do!!! ~ Rui - john already thinks their bond will be the strongest since he spends the most time with her!! ## Sangmort (moderator) · 2008-08-11T22:22:54.000Z Not boring at all! We're all super stoked out for both of you [ & Hachi as well of course~! ] I'm sure, in time, her fear will dissolve. :) ## _dlroberts · 2008-08-11T23:17:00.000Z Looks like a giant step forward to me! ## kekti · 2008-08-11T23:20:28.000Z congrat, heh it seems you have the shiba color spectrum covered well except for a seaseme...lol ## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-08-13T17:21:20.000Z kitsune is a sesame.. Quick question: Hachi will get a glaze/haze over her eyes when she is panic mode and as of late (that we realized) they are watering a bit, but we only notice that after panic mode: for instance yesterday, John was getting them harnessed for AM walk and walked out to the kitchen to grab a drink before leaving and dropped Hachi's leash handle next to her (without thinking, I'm sure :) and she freaked, tail down, peed, hid under the couch. After coaxed her out (she will come to him after these episodes), he noticed her eyes were that blue haze reflection and watering. The vet tech brought it up when he called to update me on her today because the tech is a man and she freaked in her kennel. Another thing, I can do the exact same scenario and she won't freak out. I can walk over her, around her, 'chase' her, everything, no panic. That what makes me think its either John or men in general... I dont know anymore. Is that stress related (*the watering thing)? ## brada1878 (admin) · 2008-08-13T18:01:16.000Z I'm late to this, sorry. She looks like she wants to interact with him. Seems like pretty huge improvement - good job! As for the glazed thing, yes [imo] that is pure fear and stress. Lani will get that if something happens that freaks her out - she was obviously WAY under socialized as a pup by the breeder [probably even coddled]. Her eyes get very dilated and water / glazed. We have noticed with Lani she is better with shorter people... how tall are you compared to John? ---- ## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-08-13T18:08:42.000Z LOL! Our NUTRITIONIST said the same thing about height! I'm 5'2 and John is 6'3!! But my brother is closer to my height, maybe 5'5 or so, and she is skittish around him. But with John's constant presence still making her nervous, his height makes a lot of sense. --- **Navigate:** [Forum home](https://nihonken.org/community/?format=md) · [Sitemap](https://nihonken.org/community/sitemap.xml)