# Weird behavior from Ninja... Ok - this morning I let the dogs out in the front yard to potty. A few minutes later I see my neighbor with her off leash cream Shiba, Gringo. Ninja has never liked Gringo - or any dog that approaches the gate to our front yard. He always growls immediately and charges the gate with his teeth showi… ## Thread In Behavior · started by Romi · 25 replies - **Category:** [Behavior](https://nihonken.org/community/c/behavior) - **Forum:** [Nihon Ken Forum](https://nihonken.org/community/) ## Romi (admin) · 2008-08-17T19:48:32.000Z Ok - this morning I let the dogs out in the front yard to potty. A few minutes later I see my neighbor with her off leash cream Shiba, Gringo. Ninja has never liked Gringo - or any dog that approaches the gate to our front yard. He always growls immediately and charges the gate with his teeth showing. Well I said hello to her, and she started talking about stuff so we got into a little conversation. She walked up to my gate and her dog followed. Ninja was watching, not barking or growling or hackles raised yet. Gringo got a little closer and Portia went crazy. Started doing her kidney bean and barking and play bowing - she really wanted to play with him. Ninja didn't do anything. So I praised him. Then Gringo got right up to the gate and Ninja started wagging his tail? Then Ninja started growling and showing his teeth and making weird noises - but still wagging his tail. I told him to back off and I was so surprised how easy it was to get his attention and re-direct him. Usually when he is in that state of mind, he is so fixated - it really takes a loud noise or a hard yank of the leash to get his attention. After Ninja backed off, Gringo backed off. Then Ninja went back up to the gate and laid down in front of gringo. Well - they were separated by my gate and gringo was about 2 feet away from the gate now. But I found that very surprising to see. What do you guys think??? I was really shocked to see this behavior from Ninja. It seemed like he wanted to play but was being territorial at the same time or something. And then when Gringo backed off, he seemed more relaxed and calm and just laid down. ## Leonberger (admin) · 2008-08-17T20:08:15.000Z A wagging tail doesn't just only playfulness or happiness, it also means he is excited. So he might not be pleased with Gringo's presence, just not being hectic about it, but still alert and excited by it. About it being easier to redirect him, maybe his age has something to do with it? He might be starting to get more mature, not sure. The lying in front of the other dog might have something to do with standing his ground with a kind of ignoring the other dog while still controlling his position. I can't find where I read it, but even the relative position that they lay in has a meaning and they are masters at this. ## MommyofNiko · 2008-08-17T20:25:55.000Z First off...Gringo...for a cream shiba? LMAO!!!!!! I think your baby is growing up!! ## _dlroberts · 2008-08-17T20:28:17.000Z I agree with Rui. Tail wagging isn't only and indicator of happiness or excitement. It can also indicate stress or anxiety depending on the speed and intensity. As for him calming down quickly, I think that's great! I would guess its probably an indicator that he's making enough progress that he's willing to defer to your judgment on how to react to the other dog. I'm no expert though. I hope it continues. Yay for Ninja! :-) ## Romi (admin) · 2008-08-17T20:48:29.000Z Hmm...thats interesting rui. I just did a little search on google about tail wagging and there are many meanings for the tail wag. But Ninja's tail was wagging very fast like when we come home. So I assumed that he was excited and wanted to play. But since he was growling and making noises - maybe he was just trying to back him off. But his hackles weren't up either and thats like the first thing that happens when Ninja is about to go into that crazy mode. Ninja just turned 1 - so maybe he is maturing. A few nights ago on our night walk - john wanted to run back to the house once we got to our neighborhood. Ninja is super fast - too fast for john anyway and once John started running, ninja took off and john dropped his lead. John then yelled "NINJA!!!!" and then ninja stopped in his tracks and turned back at us. John then said "Ninja - sit" and he sat and waited for us to catch up. John said he felt tense and scared for a second and then realized that feeling isn't going to help - so he changed his feelings and became calm and confident that Ninja would listen. It was pretty amazing. I didn't think we would have so much vocal control over him - I guess the attentive training is really paying off! - or Ninja is just growing up! The laying down thing, im not really sure what that was about - but I rather take him laying down rather than charging at the gate! Oh and Rach - The GRINGO name is hilarious! When I first met them and they told me his name, I started cracking up! ## JessicaRabbit (admin) · 2008-08-18T00:17:02.000Z I think he is making progress. He is starting to feel secure in his home but at the same time he is used to feeling like he needs to be territorial. I think you are right, he is growing up. You have been doing a great job of being consistent in his training and now you get to reap some of the rewards. I say keep up the good work and he will only continue to flourish. ## brada1878 (admin) · 2008-08-18T02:25:11.000Z Usually if a dog's tail wags to the right more it indicates happiness - to the left indicates excitement. A fast wagging tail is excitement, coupled with a play-bow it means excited play. A fast moving tail w/ a growl is a warning with some excitement. Was Ninja's tail still wagging when he laid down? If he continued to wag his tail while laying down I would say that is giving a warning - laying down and focusing on an object is a forum of predatory sequencing - that's why border collies do it. He may have been saying "you come any closer I'll pounce on your ass! I'm ready!"... That's my $0.02... I agree with Jessica, he seems to be making progress, I wouldn't worry. ---- ## kwyld · 2008-08-18T13:52:02.000Z I agree with what Brad said regarding the laying down and the message he was trying to convey about pouncing on that dog whether wagging his tail or not at that point. I had this issue with Kohji when I would try to pet him he would roll over and wag his tail, he would growl at me while I was petting him while wagging his tail. The doctor of behavioral medicine at my work told me it's probably a confidence signal saying "I'm wagging my tail to back up the fact that I might bite you, but I'm growling to tell you to back off first." I don't think that was a nice wag from Ninja. ## Romi (admin) · 2008-08-18T17:02:59.000Z Ninja's tail wasn't wagging when he laid down. He also wasn't watching Gringo after he laid down, seemed like he kind of got over him being there and was just enjoying the nice sun on his back. Well, I think this behavior is a lot better than before. Before I would have to yell across the way to talk to my neighbor because everytime her dog would come up Ninja would go crazy and not back off. So i guess its nice that she and her dog can walk up to our gate and we can chat without having too much of a ruckus from Ninja. I'll have to have her come by again to see if Ninja's behavior is really getting better, or if that was a 1 in a lifetime thing! ## ljowen123 (moderator) · 2008-08-18T17:08:02.000Z Different dogs, different situations, but... Jazz does better with a barrier inbetween her and the other dog. It's as if she thinks that they won't be crossing over to her side. No barrier and we get a different story. Jazz is also a grumbler. She'll be doing a happy tail, but grumbling the entire time. Not exactly sure what it means, but it's a different vibe from when she's telling a dog to back off. ## Romi (admin) · 2008-09-05T01:23:31.000Z OK - something weird again (i think) - I didn't want to start another thread...so i'll just add to this one. My brother took the dogs for their evening walk before dinner today. I had to run some errands and decided that I would just pick up some food while I was out. After I get back my brother tells me that Ninja let him pet his belly today after the walk. I was REALLY amazed because he only lets John or I pet his belly. I asked him to go more into detail of how it happened because I didn't believe him and I thought he was just teasing me. He said after the walk, when he came back and took off his lead he just kept sitting there - so he started to pet him. (we have conditioned both our dogs to sit before the collar is put on or taken off). Then he stopped and was going to go inside. But then Ninja laid down and rolled on his back. So my brother kneeled down and started rubbing his belly. WOW. I could not believe it. Ok, ok...well that was super surprising to me...but then it changes. After we ate, we were all hanging out watching tv on the couch. Ninja jumped up in between me and my brother so we both started petting him. Then he laid down and rolled on his back again. So we continued to pet and praise him with words. I stopped, but my brother was still petting him all over. And then he started patting him. Then I told him to stop because I don't think Ninja likes it. He is not a big dog and I assume he prefers massages or rubs, not pats. But he continued for a little bit and said "it's fine." So I said, OK, but I bet he's going to growl or bite you if you keep doing it. Ninja didn't do either. My brother stopped and then Ninja got up. He was just standing there, so my brother attempted to pet his chest and then NIP! He nipped my brother. I grabbed him by the scruff, looked him in the eyes and said NO in a deep voice and let go. He continued to stand there for about 2 minutes, not doing anything and then jumped off. I asked my brother if he broke the skin or was hurt. He said no, he just put his hand in his mouth, but didn't bite down. So - this made me think that Ninja was giving my brother a correction? Because I see him do this to Portia a lot. When he has a bone or if he's just chilling and Portia comes around and starts being rowdy. He will open his mouth and kind of nip her but he doesn't bite down, just sort of puts his teeth on her. It just seemed kind of odd, because I assumed Ninja rolling on his back was a submissive move and possibly an understanding that he knew my brother was higher in the pack than him. But then then he nipped him - like a correction...so maybe he has accepted my brother into the pack, but still see's him as below him in the pack order? My brother says he acts totally fine when i am not there, but once I show up, he acts out more. He says that I baby him too much and thats why he acts the way he does around me. But I don't think i've been babying him at all ever since I realized he had issues. Maybe im doing something subconciously...not sure. Just kind of weird... ## Sangmort (moderator) · 2008-09-05T01:39:59.000Z lol I like the way you put it Romi "Ninja gave my brother a correction." It gives the image of a dog training a human to sit / stay / roll :)~ ## brada1878 (admin) · 2008-09-05T03:26:01.000Z Have you had Ninja tested for Thyroid issues? ## JessicaRabbit (admin) · 2008-09-05T07:37:51.000Z Sounds like Ninja is starting to trust your brother. I think you are right that the nip is a correction. Basically Ninja was like "don't push your luck buddy..." Don't think too much on pack order stuff. That only LOOSELY applies in our settings. I think he is making serious progress. ## brandon_w (admin) · 2008-09-05T11:02:29.000Z I agree with Jess. Ninja was saying enough. Were there small signals before the nip? Changes in body posture, turning away from petting. It could be that Ninja doesn't like the patting and that is why he flipped back over to hide his belly. A lot of dogs don't tlike being thumped on. ## Romi (admin) · 2008-09-05T15:40:31.000Z Brad - I have not gotten his thyroid tested yet. I have been lagging :(. But, Ninja did start blowing his coat last week. So maybe the thin hair on the legs was a sign that he was going to blow his coat soon as Jen (your wife) mentioned with loa. But I still want to get the tests done regardless, just to be sure. I will probably call in to get it done on monday and send it to dr. dodds as you referred (i read its best to get the bloodwork done on monday or tuesday?). As for signs of the nip, he looked uncomfortable when my brother was patting him on his belly. Thats why I told my brother he will probably growl or bite him soon if he doesn't stop. But once he got up, he didn't growl or anything before the nip. But I wasn't really paying attention to his body posture or anything - I was watching TV :X. I guess we'll just continue to do the same thing and hopefully my brother learned not to pat him anymore and just pet gently. ## sujewel · 2008-09-05T17:55:41.000Z I don't think showing the belly is a submissive position. Mika shows Keigo her belly during play all the time and she is absolutely dominant over him. Sounds like Ninja engaged the behavior. By petting Ninja's belly, your brother followed Ninja's lead. When your brother crossed the line, Ninja corrected him, showing your brother his place in the pack. ## CrimsonO2 · 2008-09-05T18:18:56.000Z Maybe we should take into account Romi's instant feeling as soon as her brother started thumping Ninja on the chest? Could it be that Ninja picked up on Romi's apprehension to the thumping and translated that as a bad thing that her brother shouldn't do? After that, Ninja may have translated that Romi's brother petting his chest was a bad thing and therefore nipped him? It's a guess, but there's many alternatives. It seems to me that the dog is very in tune with yours and your brother's attitudes and acts accordingly. It's when there's conflict is likely when he'll lash out because of your slight disagreements. Again, just my guess. Jesse ## MommyofNiko · 2008-09-05T20:02:08.000Z Remember when shiba's are done they are DONE. They want all beings to follow thier schedule. He was done ## brada1878 (admin) · 2008-09-05T21:40:45.000Z I agree with Barbara and Jesse... I think he may have felt a little of Romi's vibe, as Jesse pointed out. I also agree with Barbara that a dog rolling on his back is not always a sign of submission, it can be a sign of confidence too - especially during play. If you approach a dog and they roll on their back, that is submission. If a dog is playing and rolls on his/her back that is more than likely confidence. ---- Romi - Just wondering about the Thyroid thing. I'm glad his hair is looking better. :o) ---- ## _dlroberts · 2008-09-06T13:48:43.000Z Super late to this, but that sounds like Ninja is making some amazing progress! As far as corrections go, it does sound like that is exactly what it was. Like Jessica said, though, don't read too much into the pack order thing. As I understand it, corrections go in all directions---a lower status dog can/will correct a higher status dog if they are uncomfortable with the situation. I suspect Ninja getting back on his feet was a sign he was finished being pet and the correction was just reinforcing that signal your brother didn't pick up on. Whatever it means though, I think you should be very proud of the little man! :-) ## Romi (admin) · 2008-09-07T01:27:30.000Z Thanks guys - yeah it all makes sense. I am VERY proud of him. We just got back from our evening walk and we were passing by a siberanian husky. The owner of the dog moved to the side of the sidewalk to let us walk first and was trying to get her dog into a sit/stay but he was totally focused on us and not listening to her at all. As we were about to pass by, the dog tried to lunge forward but she was holding him back so he was on his hind legs. Ninja wasn't even phased...just walked by without a growl or stare. AMAZING! Right after we walked by I gave him so much praise and he was so excited - It kind of makes me think he knows he did good. ## okiron · 2008-09-07T12:58:28.000Z Holy moly nice job Ninja! That is some great news right there. ## MommyofNiko · 2008-09-07T13:45:43.000Z YAY NINJA!!! ## _dlroberts · 2008-09-07T19:14:29.000Z Wow! Great job little man!!!!! ## brada1878 (admin) · 2008-09-07T22:47:42.000Z WOW! That's amazing progress - maybe he just needed to mature more? He is 1 now! --- **Navigate:** [Forum home](https://nihonken.org/community/?format=md) · [Sitemap](https://nihonken.org/community/sitemap.xml)