# From 2 to 3 dogs I was talking to Romi about "pack behavior" when you have a third dog a few days ago and I've been watching Brodie, my friend's neurotic JRT (that is allowed to get away with whatever he wants at home) the past few days. I've also had Thea, my other friend's Swissy, here for 3 weeks at one point. I… ## Thread In Behavior · started by _dlroberts · 28 replies - **Category:** [Behavior](https://nihonken.org/community/c/behavior) - **Forum:** [Nihon Ken Forum](https://nihonken.org/community/) ## _dlroberts · 2008-12-14T13:50:41.000Z I was talking to Romi about "pack behavior" when you have a third dog a few days ago and I've been watching Brodie, my friend's neurotic JRT (that is allowed to get away with whatever he wants at home) the past few days. I've also had Thea, my other friend's Swissy, here for 3 weeks at one point. I know this topic has come up on the forum a number of times in the past and the general consensus seems to be that adding a third dog in some way is more difficult than adding a second or in some ways "unlocks" more "pack behavior". I started this thread because, to be brutally honest, I don't see it. Here is what I have noticed: Brodie is quick to sound the alarm when he hears something outside. Joey reacts excitedly to that so he and Brodie end up running to the window a lot. Lucy will or will not go depending on how loud the noise is. Joey is much less likely to do that when Brodie isn't here. When Thea is here, this does not occur so I don't necessarily attribute this to an increase in "pack behavior". IIRC the same thing occured when Brodie stayed here before getting Joey, only Lucy followed him to the window a bunch. When Thea is around, Lucy gets very excited at feeding time, often giving Thea corrections for waiting too close to me while I prepare the food or actually shaking when I make her wait before releasing her to eat. Again, I don't attribute this to an increase in "pack behavior" because I observed the same behavior from Lucy when a friend's Shiba named Sasha stayed here before getting Joey. I think this is just a female dynamic with Lucy (and the main reason my third dog, when I'm finally ready, will be a male). IMO, the transition from 1 dog to 2 was much bigger than 2 dogs to 3. Going from 1 to 2 I suddenly had to monitor my dogs' interaction with each other, and not just a dog's interaction with objects. "Competition" for high valued items started with the second dog. I must admit it is more pronounced with a third dog simply due to the increased potential for conflict as a result of more dogs interacting. The thing I am finding the most difficult with three dogs is walks. Not that I find it hard to walk three dogs, I just haven't developed the dexterity to finesse three leashes for corrections, managing their distance from me, or when one of them decides to walk on the other side of me. Picking up poo has gone from a 10 second affair to a 1 minute operation that requires dancing around the leashes to free up a hand, getting all the dogs in position so I can reach the poo, picking it up, tying it off, and then manipulating the leashes back into position to continue the walk while holding onto a bag full of poo. So, to all of you out there that have 3 or more dogs....what am I missing? Or is it the case that "pack behavior" really starts at 2 dogs and just becomes much more obvious when you have 3? ## kwyld · 2008-12-14T14:36:27.000Z The solution to walking 3 dogs together is using Gentle Leaders on all 3. I cannot walk my 3 sucessfully with regular collars and leashes, but they are angels with their Gentle Leaders on. It is impossible for a dog of any size to pull really hard with one on because of the way they are designed. What exactly would one define as "pack behaviors?" I don't remember the other threads discussing it. ## _dlroberts · 2008-12-14T15:12:49.000Z I'm actually able to walk them just fine on regular collars as long as I keep moving. When I am leaving the house or if I stop for any reason is when things are difficult. ## kwyld · 2008-12-14T15:19:57.000Z I c. ## _dlroberts · 2008-12-14T15:29:42.000Z Kelly: I just realized I missed your question at the end there. I don't know what the "pack behaviors" are either, that's why I put it in quotes. If I knew, I'd probably be able to observe them in my pups! ## kwyld · 2008-12-14T15:33:38.000Z True, True. I started typing a long response but then deleted it, because I don't really know either. A lot of the things I was typing that they do as a 3 dog group, Kohji and Taj kind of did before when it was just them. ## _dlroberts · 2008-12-14T15:58:42.000Z I guess that was kind of my point. It's been said a bunch of times that three dogs is where the pack behaviors really begin to show, but everything I've seen have been the same as the behaviors I've observed with my two. I just see them more often because there are a super-exponential number of relationship dynamics. With two dogs, its binary. Each dog either cares about something or they don't care enough to make an issue out of it. So for a particular issue with two dogs, there are four possible dynamics: 00, 01, 10, 11 (which represents both don't care, Lucy doesn't care but Joey does, Lucy cares but Joey doesn't, they both care). With three dogs, its gets a lot more complicated because now its not binary, its ternary (as in a dog doesn't care, they care more than one dog but less than the other, or they care enough to make an issue with both dogs). So you have relationships that look more like this: 000, 001, 002, 010, 011, 012, 020, 021, 022, 100, 101, 102, 110, 111, 112, 120, 121, 122, 200, 201, 202, 210, 211, 212, 220, 221, 222. So with 2 dogs you've got 2^2 = 4 dynamics to observe (potentially), and with 3 dogs you've got 3^3=27 dynamics to observe (potentially). With 4 dogs you're up to 256 different possibilities. In Brad's case, with 11 dogs, there are 285,311,670,611 (that's right more than 285 billion possible relationship dynamics). Maybe that's what they've been getting at? Once you hit 3 dogs, the dynamics of their relationships become so much more complicated? ## Sangmort (moderator) · 2008-12-14T16:05:08.000Z ...haha Dave & his numbers succeed in reminding me why I got A's in English, Anthropology, & Humanity but failed college Algebra this semester. Thanks Dave :p lol I am rather curious about this meself also, the pack "dynamics" :) Another question I have is when you have more than one dog [ for example, let's say just two ] do you find the dogs bond less with their human than if there was only one of them? ~ ## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-12-14T16:13:20.000Z I have to think about this critically before I answer because right now my answer is 'you just kind of find things that weren't as pronounced or enacted before" ....but thats a shoddy answer! let me think about it.. but your figures are a pretty fair assessment, what happened between two dogs now gets shifted and rearranged to fit three dogs, who gets to keep the toy might be redefined, who sleeps on/under/next to the bed might be different, who gets humped and who is the humpee might change... without really defining my thought, I'll say that the 'changes in pack dynamics' from 2-3-4-3 dogs were subtle but obvious when you put your finger on it. Some changes happen instantly and some take time (after adjustments) to awaken. like this: with a toy - we have a box of toys, Kitsu would select and Tsuki would take it without hesitation from Kitsu but they'd have a game of it, one getting it, the other taking it, chase, a fun game. but 3 shibas, Kitsu would select the toy, Tsuki would want it and gurgle to get it, he'd release it with some hesitation, tsuki would do a victory dance and Hachi now wanted the toy and Tsuki instantly released it. Kitsu never would get it back from Hachi. During play though, Tsuki could hump Hachi and Kitsu could as well, but during non play, they would never do that. From this we assumed Hachi was either in charge or had the most confidence in dog-dog interactions and was therefore somehow 'above' tsuki who was always able to manipulate Kitsu. When Hachi was spayed, things became more fluid of an order then before, but it was still pretty structured. When Eva the cairn stays for a few days, or my mom's dog Honey, Hachi would have to either chill or correct Eva over and over again (the latter of which she did). Honey got her own way though. If we let the dogs stay here longer than a few days visit, that dynamic would have either been consistent or just as fluid as with the three. From the outside, it looks like all is great with some gurgle from tsuki here and there but when watched close, there are unheard rules being applied and language being conveyed that they all understand. I'll come up with a better answer later, i promise! ## _dlroberts · 2008-12-14T16:21:05.000Z Ick. Sorry Osy. Next time you take Algebra, I'm available as a tutor for a minimal fee... ;-) If it makes you feel any better, I generally tanked my humanities classes in college too. My brain just works differently than people who do well in those subjects. As for your question: I don't think it has much of an effect, if at all. Humans, for whatever reason, are special in dog's eyes and they will always bond closely with us if we treat them halfway decently. This will happen regardless of whether or not other dogs are around. Granted I only have one data point on this, but it my belief that if you spend a sufficient amount of time with a dog then it will bond closely with you no matter what. Now, if you have like 40 dogs and can't devote enough time to being with and interacting with all of them, they are likely not to bond as closely. I don't think I could quantify what the right "amount of time" is to make that bond happen. I think it probably varies from dog to dog. Some are trusting immediately and others take some time. Just yesterday we had a woman turn in two GSDs at the shelter (that she had adopted from the shelter a year ago) that had been starved for months. I mean, it was sickening how bad the condition of these dogs was. But they still licked her face to say goodbye and resisted being led away from her. It broke my heart. Those dogs were completely neglected but still bonded closely with their owner. We had another dog come in yesterday who was in good body condition, but was turned in because she was "destructive to the outside of the house and yard." Well, if you were kept in the back yard 24/7 with no human contact you'd probably get destructive too. It took one of the shelter staff all of 5 minutes to have this dog on her back getting belly rubs and eating treats. Some dogs, like Shibas, you have to work a lot harder for a good bond with them. You may see the beginnings of it after a few days, but it can take months or more to fully develop. At least that's been my experience with Lucy and Joey. ## _dlroberts · 2008-12-14T16:29:17.000Z If I read you right Jen, I think you are basically agreeing that the behaviors and dynamics are the same, they just become more visible when you add a third dog to the mix. Its not that pack behavior wasn't there before, its that it is more obvious or prominent with a third (or fourth, or ...) dog. Is that what you are trying to say? Or am I just imposing my interpretation on it? ## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-12-15T00:19:36.000Z no, I think you got it, I don't even really get it, but you got what I was trying to say. One dog will show limited pack behaviors with its people (at least Hachi does with her person) and two dogs bring in their own pack dynamics but with three+, they become very pronounced and obvious to the human what those dynamics are within the dogs themselves. ## Sangmort (moderator) · 2008-12-15T02:38:51.000Z Thanks Dave :) ~ ## ShikokuSpirit (moderator) · 2008-12-15T19:56:14.000Z Yeah, thus far....I don't feel much of a change with having 3 dogs. Only feels more exciting, but that might just be the "new puppy" synptom (sp?). I really felt a change from 1 to 2 dogs. Mainly cause Lynx and I were together for 2 years and she went with me EVERYWHERE! I've had other dogs around before tag along with us on our ventures, but never stayed long enough to make much of an impact. When I got Shoushuu, that made a difference. Now having grown accustomed with 2 dogs in the household, the 3rd doesn't seem any different. Our routines are the same. The only thing I can see as a potienial complication, is the 3 dog walk. I've barely mastered the 2 dog walk! lol. I let my friend barrow my only gentle leader...I should probably get that back. I've been wanting to try it on Shoushuu. already, I don't think he will like it! Oh well... ## ShikokuSpirit (moderator) · 2008-12-15T19:59:16.000Z Lynx is always "snarky" with new dogs in the household, but then she just gets use to them, after the "newness" wears off...they just become apart of the pack. Like it's some kind of amunity -shrugs-. ## Zinja · 2008-12-16T03:38:53.000Z Osy, do you go to UCF? I have a lot of friends there. I'm just wondering.. -Joe ## Romi (admin) · 2008-12-21T02:29:25.000Z Sorry I'm so late on this thread. But this is why I think it is a big change adding a 3rd dog to a household... First off - I think where you live makes a difference. If you live in the country or away from the city with less distractions around - it is much easier walking 3 dogs. But if you live in the city that will be a tough task. For example - My neighborhood is pretty small and right off a major street. So when I walk my dogs, walking them around my neighborhood is probably less than 1/4 mile. So to give them adequate exercise, I have to go out of my neighborhood and walk on the major streets. There is a starbucks a mile and a half down the street from my neighborhood that I usually go to in the morning. I have to cross 4 cross walks in order to get there. It is quite noisy with cars and I have to go under a freeway bridge to get there. There is also lots of people walking, riding bikes, skateboarding, etc. So there are A LOT of distractions on our daily walks. But, if I lived out in the country or lived in a bigger neighborhood where walking around the whole neighborhood would be a few miles, that would be a lot easier to manage walking 3 dogs since there would be less distractions. The second thing I want to mention is the dogs' temperment. Portia gets very excited once she is comfortable with a dog and starts to get pretty boisterous and pushy during play. I would have to monitor her for a while until the new dog understood her type of play. She thinks she is a chihuahua or something and bumps and slams into Ninja all the time. Ninja is dog reactive - so I would definately have to keep a very close eye on him and make sure that all interactions with the new dog are positive. This can make things tough. Trying to make a bond with the new dog to build trust as well as trying to keep the routines as normal as possible for the other 2 dogs. It's a lot of work to give all dogs attention, especially if a dog can't be in the same room with the other yet. It is mentally and physically exhausting having to constantly keep an eye and rotate dogs and make sure that everything is secure. But, if the other 2 dogs are well socialized - it would seem to me that it would makes things easier. Instead of slowly introducing them and keeping them separated for possible months, it could be only a few weeks or even days depending on how well they all get along. Portia was well socialized - she was very open and playful and loved attention from anyone or any dog. Adding Ninja to our pack was nothing. We let Ninja explore the front yard by himself and then John took Portia on a walk and I let Ninja go inside and explore his new home. An hour later we brough portia back to the front yard and introduced her to Ninja. She was really excited and didn't show any bad reactions to Ninja. Ninja didn't seem scared of Portia or uncomfortable with her. But still, I kept them separated when we were not able to supervise. I put Ninja in a smaller pen and Portia had roam of the house like always, when we got home from work a few days after we had Ninja, he was out of his pen and everything seemed fine between them. Since then, we allowed them to be together all the time. They actually have never had a serious spat. Ninja will correct Portia when she gets too rough, but he has never broken her skin. I can fully trust them together and know that nothing will come between them. Another thing when adding a new dog - you start to really see issues about your dog that you didn't see before. I'll use Ninja as my example. When we brought Hanzo to our home, they had a pretty awesome introduction. I thought that it would take some work, but it looked very promising from the introduction. However, as days went by, Ninja's behavior became worse and worse towards Hanzo. First, Ninja would get so frustrated that he would take it out on Portia if she was near him. And second, Ninja started snapping at us. It was very heartbreaking to see a dog that you love and care for charge YOU out of frustration. When one dog is constantly growling and charging the other dog, it makes things very tough to manage. You worry about fights happening, dogs getting hurt, you getting hurt, possibilities of what might happen, it's very stressful. It was a good experience for us, we learned a lot more about Ninja and his behavior. Now we know that bringing in an older intact male would cause for some major difficulty. If I were to add to my pack, I would definately have to get a female and a puppy. I think adding puppies to a multi-dog household would probably be a lot easier than adding an adult. I would be able to pick up the puppy and move them around a lot easier than an adult. And only really have to worry about Ninja's reactions to the puppy - instead of having to worry about if Ninja reacts a certain way and how the new older dog will react back. I know Ninja and his behavior, but I didn't know Hanzo well enough to know what his behavior was like in certain situations. So I was really afraid of what would happen if Hanzo were to react to Ninja. He could cause some serious damage to Ninja if he wanted, but with a puppy - I would only have to worry about Ninja causing damage to them. I feel like I am blabbering and I'm not sure if I am making sense anymore - lol. Anywho - I think since Brad and I both had a dog-reactive dog when adding a 3rd - it really made behaviors pop out that we didn't see before. So it made it tough and took a lot longer for all dogs to be comfortable, happy and safe living together. So to us, it seemed like there was a big difference when adding a 3rd dog compared to adding a 2nd because of all the extra work, patience, stress, time. Since Lucy and Joey are pretty well socialized, I think it was easier for Dave to handle 3 dogs because everyone got along and he didn't have to worry about one of the dogs attacking the other for no reason. ## _dlroberts · 2008-12-21T05:52:45.000Z Its "fewer distractions", not "less distractions". :-P (sorry, one of my pet peeves :-)). I totally understand what you are saying---especially about walking three dogs in a distracting environment. That is the point I was getting at when I talked about the dexterity required to carefully manipulate three leashes. If one of the three dogs is lunging for a squirrel, to greet another dog, or just decides to circle around behind you and you pull back on the leash, it can be difficult to avoid jerking the collar of another one of the dogs that is behaving appropriately. I would assume that walking three dogs in a place with fewer distractions would make the task more manageable simply because there would be fewer circumstances where you would need to subtly manipulate the leashes. I've been practicing the last few weeks walking Lucy and Joey with one hand, and its getting easier, so I think it can be done with three. It will just take some practice. But, to be honest, I'm not convinced the problems you describe between Ninja and Hanzo are the result of adding a third dog. Don't you think it would be the case if you had Ninja and not Portia, that you probably would have had the same problems with adding Hanzo? I say this based on my experience with Lucy and Thea. Thea has been a guest here by herself (before I had Lucy and Joey), with only Lucy, and with Lucy and Joey. It's tough for me to compare to when I just had Thea here alone since it was the first time I had ever "lived" with a dog, so let's start with just Lucy and Thea. Specifically, I noticed Lucy became frustrated and/or excited with toys and at feeding time when Thea was here. Lucy usually waits patiently a few feet away from me while I prepare her food. She typically lays down and rests her head on her front paws. When Thea is here, Lucy become quite agitated and throws a tantrum when I'm preparing meals. She will whine, shake, cry, and even lunge at Thea for getting too close. I have trained her to be calm by reinforcing that behavior, but when Thea is here she feels the need to assert her status and gets frustrated because it is counter to what she's been trained. I interpret that as a pack behavior. Lucy does not exhibit this behavior with Joey at all; however, it does occur when Thea and Joey are here. Joey stays out of it, but I could imagine a scenario where the third dog might get involved as well. Anyway, I digress a bit. Getting back to the point I made in one of my last posts. I don't disagree that a third dog can make things harder than just having two. The "exponential" relationship I described in my geeky mathematical analysis of the situation would support that claim completely. The point I attempted to make is that the pack behaviors don't begin when you add the third dog, they begin when you add the second. Adding the third only makes them more obvious because there are many more opportunities to observe them. Would you agree with that? ## JessicaRabbit (admin) · 2008-12-21T11:59:49.000Z Logistically a third dog in my experience is always much more challenging. Now I only rescue (with the one exception of Miko) and so I have always dealt with my dogs past issues. When we had Moto, walking the three dogs as one person for more than a block or two was a trial in patience. Mostly because each dog had a very different energy level. Moto, would walk very nicely but then would suddenly see a leaf and would be off in one direction, Miko would be trying to engage one or both dogs in play, while chasing a different leaf, and wanting to sniff everything and greet everyone, and Piglet just wanted to walk next to me and would get annoyed by the whippersnappers (I mean Moto and Miko). God forbid you ran into someone who wanted to pet your dogs, Moto and Miko would maul each other to get pet. Piglet would wait her turn but would be annoyed. Basically it was a cluster f*&%. I have similar situation with earlier packs, but those I think were further amplified that I was often taking in severe abuse cases and living in New York City. I think after reading this I am pretty comfortable saying that the situation is clearly determined by the individuals comprising the group, and if you have an insecure member of the pack (humans count too in this) that will always complicate the dynamic. I have seen complications with multiple dogs who were for the most part well adjusted confident dogs. I think whenever you have more than 2 dogs, personality types will be amplified. I think when you are in a more rural situation (for instance Brad and Jen's location) where the dogs are having considerably more off leash time out doors you will witness a pack dynamic. When you are indoors, on leash, and in a controlled environment you are going to have a harder time witnessing pack situations, because there is less need for the dogs to express them. If you think about it, pack mentality is an expression of survival instinct. Sitting in a cushy home with plenty of food shelter and toys, a confident dog will have little to no sense of urgency to be the "boss" or secure resources. Eh, my 2 cents. ## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-12-21T15:09:30.000Z "If you think about it, pack mentality is an expression of survival instinct." well put, Jessica! And while we only rescue as well having to deal with a multitude of different pasts, learned behaviors and mentalities, and for the most part strictly from my own experiences, I'm convinced it has a lot to do with the individual dog being added (Hachi was a breeze, others not so much) sometimes it works right away, sometimes it doesn't work at all, sometimes you make it work until you have another option... and I don't think we've had any 3rd dog here long enough to determine the long term effects of pack dynamics like Brad has. But in our home, with plentiful food, water, toys, comfort and affections - we see less of a natural pack dynamic, but we still see personalities that clash and personalities that mesh - and those personalities are evident with 2 dogs, but I rely on the consistency and amplification of those personalities as a method of control more so with 3+ dogs. Which is interesting that this be revived, since I have Eva the Cairn here until the 28th and usually her and Tsuki are inseparable play buddies but this time around there is significantly more snark, which throws my original mind set about their dynamic right out the window. Fun times. ## Sangmort (moderator) · 2008-12-21T15:16:43.000Z I also second what Jess said about it depending on the individual personalities. I think that would make a huge difference. ~ ## Romi (admin) · 2008-12-21T17:23:47.000Z Dave - I don't think that if we didn't have Portia and it was just Ninja and Hanzo it would be the same. I think it would still be a lot of work to get them to be ok around eahother - but much more easy to handle. If something were to happen, it'd be a lot easier to control with just 2 dogs. For example - Ninja and Portia would wait by the gate that separated me and Hanzo from them. When i would walk out the the gate, they were both very excited. Hanzo would come up to the gate and Portia would get excited and start trying to play...while Ninja would start growling and showing his teeth. Since portia was moving around excitedly and Ninja was about to charge - Portia would be an easier target for Ninja so he would lash out on her. Even though she was no threat to him - it was just misdirected frustration. Now if it was only Ninja and he was growling - It would be easier for me to control the environment - only having to get Ninja's attention and know that nothing else around us would get in the way. So even though Portia was fine with Hanzo and she was fine with Ninja - when Ninja got into that frustrated state of mind, he would lash out on her and and so we would have to keep Portia away from Ninja when Hanzo was around. Every dog is different and every person is different. I had no idea it would be that much of a change from going from 2-3 dogs. Since adding Ninja was no big thing. But to us, it was - we weren't ready...we didn't understand Ninja's behaviors completely and it was a rushed "in the moment" decision, which was a bad one. I don't know if Ninja's behaviors were there before, or if they were new...but we had never seen them before so I can't really agree that it has always been there and that adding a 3rd dog just made it visible. ## Romi (admin) · 2008-12-21T17:30:06.000Z BTW - I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here...just experience. ## _dlroberts · 2008-12-21T23:15:53.000Z Perhaps I'm not communicating effectively. I am in complete agreement that keeping harmony among a pack of three requires significantly more cognitive processing than a pack of 2. I also agree that a particular dog's upbringing will have a notable effect on the dynamics of the situation. Maybe it comes down to me misinterpreting what has been said in the past. I started this thread because I had a recollection that someone (or a few people) on this forum had said that "pack behavior begins when you add a third dog" (or something to that effect) and my observations just don't agree with that. In my experience, I began to notice "pack behavior" once the second dog was part of the household. My original question had to do with what "pack behavior" becomes apparent when you have a third dog that isn't when you have a second, not if it is more difficult to manage them (which I firmly believe it is). And Jess, I think pack behavior is partly an expression of survival instinct. It is also an expression of a social need that animals have and a way to maintain social relationships and keep order. But that is further digression from the question I'm trying to get answered here! ## Romi (admin) · 2008-12-21T23:56:54.000Z Ok - I understand now. Well I don't really understand pack behavior - or know what actions are associated with "pack behavior" so I don't have anything else to say! LOL - sorry...I skimmed through most of this thread...I thought this thread was about what the difference was between adding a 3rd dog compared to adding a 2nd. ## JessicaRabbit (admin) · 2008-12-22T11:05:17.000Z Dave, I think one of the reasons you are not noting a significant difference in pack behavior between 2 and three dogs is this, the third dog that has been added to your pack has been temporary. You know that and in some ways may be energetically transferring that to your pack. I believe that pack dynamics do manifest when you add a second dog. I think what people are trying to say when they say that pack dynamics are expressed more when you get up to three dogs, is that dogs then can get all they need emotionally from each other and then are using us as their source of food and shelter. Jen, Romi, and I may not be the best at explaining this seeing as Jen and I have rescued some emotionally needy dogs who cling more to humans, and Romi as Ninja who up until recently was not exactly the best at interacting in dog groups. I am really interested to hear Brad's take on all of this because he is the most qualified to give us a first hand experience on this one. But you can see it in this, when your dogs are playing they come to you to throw the ball, do you ever see Brad's dogs come to them for entertainment? You are right that pack behavior is an expression of social needs as much as survival needs and I think the Anderson pack is a great expression of that. ## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-12-22T12:03:55.000Z I dunno, I guess I'd have to determine what Pack Behavior actually is to try to answer your question, but like Jess said, I've not had 'normal' or well adjusted dogs so I'm sure in a natural state of mind, things might have been different for the times we had 3-4 dogs at one time. And like Jess said having a temporary pack member changes the dynamic but I would assume not as noticeably as a permanent third pack member. The longest we had a third pack member was 6.5 months, and after the initial adjustment weeks, I think we did see what a pack could be. I stopped trying to figure out canine hierarchy inequality a while ago, I hate to label dogs as dominant or say that one is alpha or not because ONLY after I had a three dog two human pack did I see that the 'order' of things is constantly changing. With two dogs, I think they work out on a more permanent level who is above the other in their petty pecking order. Its more prominent with two dogs who is who in that order I should say - like the Keiko and Belle cuz video - Belle could take it right out of Keiko's mouth, but Keiko had to basically put on a show and beg to get it back. Maybe because Belle isn't a shiba there wasn't theatrics, but between Tsuki and Kitsune, Tsuki would take a toy then sound like a chainsaw if Kitsune tried to get it back. With dogs that aren't emotionally/mentally/physically stable, its a whole other ball game. We've all seen the snarkies, but a dog fight is much more defining of that order when 3 or more dogs are trying to coexist. We only had a male foster for 3 days when he and Kitsune really got into a fight - but afterward it was so obvious that Kitsune would have submitted to the foster if the situation was allowed to happen again (which it wasn't). But I think its because the foster was not mentally stable and Kitsune knew that... he knew it even if we didn't right away. So in a domestic, companion dog pack - since they don't really have to fight like wild dogs who gets food, who sleeps where, who mates when, etc - I think the main difference in pack behavior between 2 and 3+ dogs is that a human can't really determine the pecking order or the reason behind pack behaviors because the order is really a fluid thing, whereas in my limited experience with two dogs its pretty evident who is who in their order of things. I think I'm even more off the track here, but let me try to get what I want out: -Dogs historically are supposed to see the world in terms of pack order, one dog is totally reliant on the human, bring in a second dog and pack order becomes defined between the dogs, and sometimes the human, too, I suppose. -Since I am not a dog, I am limited in my understanding that every pack needs an “alpha”. If I believe this to be true, I hope that the human takes the alpha (or pack leader, etc) role. Between the dogs its entirely different since we can never truly communicate 100% effectively with our dogs, so I think between the dogs themselves they work out who is entitled and who is not. In my pack of two dogs, if I had one bone, I know Tsuki would claim it and let kitsune know that it is hers until it is devoured. When Hachi came, she would get the bone first and would even be able to take it from the mouths of the other two dogs with ease, while they were not allowed to get it back. Over time though, Tsuki became more assertive with Hachi and while they never had scuffles, Tsuki began to take toys from Hachi - nothing of great value - but it was still happening. The order was more fluid, or Hachi was more relaxed in the pack and wasn't guarding her resources as much. Its really hard to tell as a human, but I think the pack order, and subsequently the pack behaviors, became less defined over time in an urban pack out house dogs that never wanted for anything. Therefore, while Hachi was probably still "alpha" in many situations, she gave up that "right" sometimes to the other two dogs when the object wasn't as valuable. I'm not sure wolves or wild dogs would be the same in that regard. -Now, I do think that being the "alpha" in any situation means choosing, teaching and reinforcing rules that are useful for the health of the group/pack. And as the human leader of 2+ dogs, it is your job is to help your dogs understand the rules of the human community in which they live... so my correcting Tsuki for getting snarky with Kitsune over a treat is breaking whatever pack instinct she's following, taking a toy from Hachi's mouth myself and throwing it across the room for play is destroying her claim over that object in front of the other two dogs. As humans, I think we can watch 2 dogs play and interact and take roles among themselves and say when asked "oh my female totally rules over the male". When I watch 3 dogs play, at times I could say "she takes everything from them and they can't ask for it back" but then if I interject and begin to mold their interactions to how I want to see them, I think the pack order becomes more fluid and relaxed since they are not fighting for resources of any kind and reliant on the human for pretty much everything. -So I basically understand pack behaviors to be an extension of a dogs instinct to view the world in terms of inequality and thats why we have structured introductions when adding dogs, to avoid or quell any need for them to assert themselves as above the other dog, etc. At least in my pack, I want them to all be equals in terms of the distribution resources and thus avoid fighting or turmoil in the pack. In doing so, I think we sort of determine which pack behaviors are acceptable and create a sort of peaceful coexistence in a house dog pack. SO to really get at the answer you want - maybe watch a video of 2 dingos interacting, then watch a video of 3+ interacting... or maybe Brad can help... I don't think I can! I think Brad can help us understand what its like to have 5+ dogs in a pack, I think that dynamic is completely different from 3 dogs and brings out more pack behaviors, but it's something I know nothing about. ## TeamLaika · 2008-12-23T00:31:15.000Z Well, I don't know about more or less "pack behavior", but I do know alot about walking three dogs together in a distracting environment. The item I have found invaluable is the over-the-shoulder leash. In fact, I have two such leashes. Then two dogs are attached to me, leaving one hand free for poo pickup etc. The other thing that really helps is a solid "wait" command. That means no dithering around when I am picking up the poo or getting the mail, etc. I like for my dogs to be comfortable walking on either my right or my left side since I attend agility classes, but once they are on a particular side they are expected to stay there. There is to be no crossing in front of me unless I ask them to switch. I walk right into them and bump them with my shins if they are not paying attention to where I am. I have also taught them a 'behind' command. This is used for narrow hiking trails or steps. I guess with three pairs of eyes, you have the opportunity for amplified interest in whatever ONE sees...a cat, a squirrel, a groundhog... Some dogs definitely take a cue from others. Triepak is like this. If Tuli is riled up about something, he is going to be excitable. Sort of a symbiotic brain phenomenon. The same situation with Triepak solo, would have been totally ignored. (I think they only share bad habits though...never good ones LOL!) --- **Navigate:** [Forum home](https://nihonken.org/community/?format=md) · [Sitemap](https://nihonken.org/community/sitemap.xml)