# raw vs. kibble vs. rotating

(just a note, i posted this to a raw forum and got chewed out for thinking of non raw options, SO i'm trying here!) ok, we've been 100% raw since July 10. We've been having an issue getting Tsuki to eat a lot of it - mostly the bone-in poultry and organs - we've tried searing the organs, cutting th…

## Thread
In Food · started by tsukitsune · 22 replies
- **Category:** [Food](https://nihonken.org/community/c/food)
- **Forum:** [Nihon Ken Forum](https://nihonken.org/community/)

## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-08-17T13:35:19.000Z
(just a note, i posted this to a raw forum and got chewed out for thinking of non raw options, SO i'm trying here!) ok, we've been 100% raw since July 10. We've been having an issue getting Tsuki to eat a lot of it - mostly the bone-in poultry and organs - we've tried searing the organs, cutting them small, blending them with yogurt - nothing. She hates her organs. And in prey model raw, you need to eat your organs! And bone in poultry, if she eats it, it takes her a really, really long time. My real concern for her is her tooth situation - we extracted a top incisor which has healed and hadn't really made a difference eating non-bone-in raw like beef and tripe or even with whole fish - but I just don't want to take ANY chances as she has less than normal set of teeth to eat with. Another tooth has started to shift a bit... So with those two things in mind, i'm considering putting her back on wellness core and giving her a rotation of raw meals when the other dogs have their beef portion or tripe or bison burgers or something, giving her that in place of the kibble. They have these meaty meat portions daily but Tsuki will get it 3-4 times a week. Does anyone see any harm in mixing raw and kibble (at different meal times) longterm? Ideally, it will just be Tsuki's special diet with an occasional chicken leg for the clean-teeth benefits, but mostly grain free kibble. i've considered home cooked but have not done significant nutrient replacement research yet. any thoughts?

## ljowen123 (moderator) · 2008-08-17T13:37:56.000Z
Well, I want to eventually go to a process of alternating premade with kibble - doing the premade in the morning and the kibble at night, but I'm still researching. My two are on grain-free, already.

## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-08-17T13:42:09.000Z
naturesvariety.com has a pretty accurate feeding guideline for grain free kibble (base protein around 35%) and premade raw. You can even factor in canned and get a pretty good feeding guideline. I had a question about how they factored in digestion rates and emailed customer service and they sent me a $5 coupon for their premade raw. I also have a buy one/get one coupon code for nature's variety if you want to use it!

## ljowen123 (moderator) · 2008-08-17T13:53:24.000Z
Email it to me, if you don't mind! Thanks!

## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-08-17T14:01:22.000Z
you have to register to get the coupon (I just realized my name is printed on it!) go here: http://www.naturesvariety.com/tryit and register and they email it to you. or you can go here; http://www.naturesvariety.com/iloveit/ to register for a coupon for free grain free kibble or canned nature's variety

## JessicaRabbit (admin) · 2008-08-17T14:06:37.000Z
I LOVE the natures variety and my dogs do too. I mentioned in another post that I also use the Aunt Jennies pre-made raw as well the Steves. As far as organ meat goes Jay and I by tubs of hearts and livers from the butcher, cook it like a stew just until their soft in their own juices and then throw the whole nasty batch into the food processor and mix it with the ground meat and veggies. You may want to try that. Check out my holistic vet she might even answer any of your questions via email or suggest someone to you in PA. She has a message board on her site too. http://www.holisticanimalvet.com/

## kwyld · 2008-08-17T14:23:17.000Z
Jen, I haven't been feeding premade raw and kibble for very long(only about 1 1/2 months) but it seems to be working very well for my guys. I settled on Nature's Variety raw after reading through The Whole Dog Journal's raw unbalanced and balanced diets issue. I also am able to buy it from a pet store near me which makes things easier too. I'm pretty impressed that they have an organic formula. I feed the raw in the morning and Wellness Core Ocean Fish at night, but I feel horrible feeding them any kibble now after giving them these yummy raw patties. Jessica, your comment about your vet saying kibble being "bags of death" has really gotten me on the ball regarding feeding more raw! I have bought the other protein formulas and nothing compares to the texture and softness of the organic chicken, it literally falls apart in the bowl, and the beef or venison formulas I have to literally cut with a fork and knife into pieces even though it's fully thawed. I go by caloric requirement for the size of the dog and body condition scoring as opposed to their feeding guidelines though. Thanks for the info regarding the coupons! The only problem I see in mixing them at different meal times is feeding any kibble at all, I would prefer to feed only the Nature's Variety, but it would cost me $390.00 a month to feed only that, as my dogs would go through 6 8oz. patties per day, at $26 per bag :(

## MommyofNiko · 2008-08-17T14:40:15.000Z
Jess...how do you do all that with out freaking out? Im a meat eater and I wouldnt be able to handle that...EWWWW.... Kudos to you brave brave Vegan girl!

## JessicaRabbit (admin) · 2008-08-17T16:17:38.000Z
my vet charges me $14 for a bag. you are getting robbed.

## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-08-17T16:55:10.000Z
thanks Jessica! I wrote her an email. I would love to find a holistic vet that will work with the nutritionist. The issue with the nutritionist is she's mostly equine so I take her know how and do extra research and create our own diet from it all. But with Tsuki, we've tried tough love with raw - if she doesn't eat in 15 mins, take it away, give it back in the pm, etc. She just doesn't respond to raw as well. but her coat never looked better, and her teeth are white as they come, her stool is small and odorless, it does wonders for her, she just doesn't like to eat it.. I'm seriously considering a fish based home cooked diet for her though. we're using this as a basis for which fish to use http://www.gotmercury.org/ anyone use this source for home cooked recipes? http://www.hcfrgroup.com/recipes/

## kwyld · 2008-08-17T17:24:33.000Z
JEEZ, $14!!! I need to find a new store that can order me Nature's Variety!!! My work carries Aunt Jeni's but they are not able to get it discounted for me and I would probably end up paying more for that food than Nature's Variety.

## JessicaRabbit (admin) · 2008-08-17T18:57:08.000Z
At the price you are paying you are better off cooking for your babies.

## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-08-17T21:14:33.000Z
Need homecooked advice!! So I am beginning research for a predominantly FISH or novel protein (quail, rabbit, etc) based homecooked diet for Tsuki. She has issue with chicken and some beef formula kibble. even the orijen turned her a tad pink. I'm going to try to avoid them in cooked form for a while then maybe try to integrate as time goes on. I also am aiming for a totally grain-free home cooked diet. Does anyone have any good info on what to start with - meat/veg/vitamin/mineral wise? Where to look for nutrient info for cooked foods because as I understand it, the food loses a great deal of nutrients from its raw form, right? i'm using nutritiondata.com but a lot of times, the portion size is a little off. How to begin measurements and formulations per pounds of dog? What veggies to get, what to avoid? I know of gotmercury.org for fish selection, are there other sources?

## Sangmort (moderator) · 2008-08-17T23:02:55.000Z
Jen, I can't really give you any advice on this matter [ since I know absolutely nothing lol ] but, I have to say it's really great to see how well you take care of your babies & how much effort you put into making sure their health is great! It's really nice to see people like that exist :) [ the members on this forum included, as all are the same way of course :) ]~

## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-08-17T23:47:08.000Z
Thanks, Osy! I'm sure you will use everything you learn for your pup, it'll be one lucky dog!

## Sangmort (moderator) · 2008-08-18T00:09:57.000Z
Thanks Jen, it's only cause I have you guys to learn from & help me! <3!~

## JessicaRabbit (admin) · 2008-08-18T00:26:51.000Z
As far as veggies go my vet gave me a pretty long list of foods to use, greens, squashes, sweet potatoes, beets, peas, green beans. What I do as far as cooking is I steam the veggies, until JUST cooked and then I toss them in the food processor mix them all up until I have a beautiful colorful mash. Steaming and roasting are the best ways to keep the nutrition in, boiling is the worst because that does leech nutrients out. We cook the meats out side in a roasting pan on the grill, but that is mostly because we are vegan and I hate when my house smells like bunnies, and fish. I had a supplement work up done by Dr. Doolittle, so I don't worry about that I just follow her orders. And when I cook, I do a 50/50 meat to veggie ratio.

## kwyld · 2008-08-18T13:57:14.000Z
I've heard to avoid veggies in the nightshade family like tomatos because they can aggrevate arthritic conditions.

## JessicaRabbit (admin) · 2008-08-18T14:10:46.000Z
Piglets doc okay'd them for her. I did not realize that tomatoes were in the nightshade family. Learned something new.

## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-08-18T20:34:25.000Z
I have an appointment with the (horse) nutritionist this weekend, but in the meantime I'm trying to collect any and all info on home cooked diets that I can: I ordered the updated version of Dr Pitcairn's book - does anyone else have this? And I found this seemingly credible source: http://www.drbasko.com/nutrition.htm#dog\_diets

## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-08-19T11:42:35.000Z
This is called Tsuki Stew: hmmm Tsuki had successfully gone three days without eating. There is nothing medically wrong with her. She just hates raw. Our vet must be getting sick of seeing us!! Instead of feeding her the wellness core ocean i ran out to buy, we wanted to try home cooked first. So as per instructions from my nutritionist friend, we put together an everything but the kitchen sink quickie meal for Tsuki to eat SOMETHING. So, the Tsuki stew: Beef liver Chicken meat from drumstick - boiled intact first for broth Chicken gizzards and heart Rosemary Olive Oil Solid Gold Seameal (sprinkled in after it was done) Carrots Yellow Squash Sweet Potatoes Peas Kale Apples (with skin, no seeds) We boiled the meat, removed chicken meat from bone, added the veg to the boil, added the seameal when it was all done and mashed to a chunky consistency. We added probiotics in yogurt before serving. The broth went to Kitsune. She ate it enthusiastically!

## _dlroberts · 2008-08-19T12:14:17.000Z
I bet she did. Three days without food makes for a hungry pup! I hope she continues.

## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-08-24T07:54:07.000Z
JessicaRabbit - did you know about this group: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Totally\_Home\_Cooking/ Its great. We've been integrating more home cooked now, i've made a few meals in large quantity and froze some, fed some. i'm still mixing in raw, like the last two days meals have been a cooked cornish hen/pork kidney/zucchini/carrot/kelp stew in AM and turkey neck/tripe/spleen (raw) in PM. I like this mix, the dogs like it too. I'm waiting for a few books from Amazon. Any suggestions on canine nutrition/diet books? I have Volhards, Lonsdale, Schultze, and Pitcairn's books.

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