# Schutzhund Training for Shikoku?? Has anyone here considered schutzhund training for their Shikokus? I am curious about everyones thoughts and opinions on how a shikoku would fair in that type of training. ## Thread In Shikoku Ken · started by the_november_rain · 11 replies - **Category:** [Shikoku Ken](https://nihonken.org/community/c/shikoku-ken) - **Forum:** [Nihon Ken Forum](https://nihonken.org/community/) ## the_november_rain · 2009-03-27T03:17:50.000Z Has anyone here considered schutzhund training for their Shikokus? I am curious about everyones thoughts and opinions on how a shikoku would fair in that type of training. ## Leonberger (admin) · 2009-03-27T08:01:40.000Z I've never trained a Schutzhund dog, but I like it and I've been reading a few things about it over the years. I wouldn't consider a Shikoku for that kind of work. For what I've seen here and read of the breed, they don't have the protection instinct needed for Schutzhund. Also, Shikoku are supposed to like people, right? I'm not seeing a Shikoku standing its ground against a human. Of course there are exceptions to this rule. Having said that, I've seen a Golden Retriever that was a trained protection dog. In the other areas of Schutzund, tracking and obedience, they have a good potential to excel. But you can train and compete in those separately. ## JessicaRabbit (admin) · 2009-03-27T11:49:59.000Z I think Shikoku are too small for Schutzhund. And honestly it really defies their nature (at least with my experience with Shikoku). Seeing as Corina does Schutzhund with Lynx and has 2 Shikoku I will be curious for her input. Although I am comfortable saying I think training one for Schutzhund would be very uphill. I just think there are far more appropriate breeds for it. I actually think Kai would do better. Although they too are small. ## Edgewood · 2009-03-27T12:59:00.000Z I agree with all of the above. I think it would be easy to train the obedience and tracking portion of schutzhund but a lot more difficult to train the bite and hold aspect with a Shikoku. My guy loves to come running at you and body slam you, but he has a very soft mouth and doesn't like to hold down, which is the opposite of what they are supposed to do in Schutzhund. FWIW, I had a friend in the late 90s who went to the World Championships for Schutzhund several times and her dogs were REALLY intense working GSDs from Germany. And I mean really intense, much more so that regular GSDs I see around. Some were so intense that she sold them for police dogs. But I did get to see her train a lot and it was neat. I have lost touch with her (and we met in VA) but it is funny that we now live in PA (although relatively far away) http://workinggermanshepherd.com/ ## TeamLaika · 2009-03-27T14:40:09.000Z There is no size or breed restriction. Check out Mr. Murphy at the 2001 Nationals. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTN5kTkdvME Here's a wee Italian Pinscher getting the job done http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFwkc3fXS4U To me, Schutzhund- the sport, is a bit different than personal protection work, but I care not to argue about the definition of 'sport'. In Schutzhund training, the bite is the reward for the obedience work. There are many dogs that possess great enthusiasm for tugging/gnawing on a jute, but are unwilling/unable to transfer that to a sleeve. Many hunting breeds are 'handler soft' (this is intentional so they can be easily handled by any member of the hunting party) and to top it off, the hunting spitz are darned independent so there are inherent challenges with the Shikoku. They might just not care enough! Nonetheless, if the individual dog has aptitude, I say go for it. It's no different than partaking in agility or some other dog activity. P.S. I completed a Schutzhund AD (endurance test) with the Laika Trios dam, Mussa. 12 miles on the bike and then obedience afterwards. She passed with flying colors. So, Rui is correct, you can train/compete in Schutzhund events that are not bitework. ## the_november_rain · 2009-03-27T15:04:50.000Z lol, Mr Murphy is awesome! ## brandon_w (admin) · 2009-03-27T15:10:05.000Z A JRT being good at Schutzhund training doesn't really shock me. They are tenacious little dogs. ## lindsayt · 2009-03-28T03:34:24.000Z I met a policeman (off duty) at work a couple weeks ago with a boxer in for regular yearly shots, and he was doing Schutzhund training with her, and drug sniffing. It was neat to see an atypical breed like that doing traditional GSD police work. At this point, after all the hours of working with the Shiba on obedience, I don't want to make it any harder on myself. I want a more willing, bigger breed to train for personal protection/Schutzhund if I ever go that route so I would go with a Malinois. I like the Belgian breeds for their all around total package trainability and drive. Not to say that Shiba or Shikoku can't master some of the aspects of Schutzund work, or even Akita, but some dogs seem to just have it in them. ## ShikokuSpirit (moderator) · 2009-03-28T08:43:29.000Z Now you're totally stepping on my territory -grins-. In Schutzhund, the dog has to be big enough to clear the jump and stop the decoy. Temperments vary from dog to dog. Some dogs take their job too seriously. Others are very cautious and leery but do the work anyways (usually these dogs get run off the field by the decoy --- meaning ---> decoy scares the dog away <--- not good). The average Schutzhund dog though is just playing a really fun game. They are taught to go through "push" (barking) the decoy to get their reward. No matter what the decoy does, they are to be persisent and stand their ground until called off or relieved of their duty by the handler. It's a great way for the dog to burn off energy. Allowing the dog to bite the sleeve also relieves any frustration or tension the dog may have. The dog is to bite full and grip hard no matter what the decoy does. Once the dog learns the correct way to bite, an "out" is taught. So now, the dog learns to out on command. Schutzhund is all about control on the dog. Protection is only 1, 2 or maybe 3 bites of it...the rest is all pure Obedience with some Tracking thrown in. It's a competive sport, great for foundation on a dog and excellent for control. It's actually a great way to teach bite inhibition. The dog will learn "this is okay to bite" and "this is NOT okay to bite". Most dogs just target and lock-on the equipment. They are taught to bite the equipment and not people. The BH is to "pre-test" a dog worthy to actually compete in Schutzhund. You do the obedience portion on and off leash. Then there is a temperment portion and traffic portion: * Temperment - the dog is tied to a fence and the handler hides out of sight. Someone will walk their dog or dogs pass that dog. That dog is not suppose to react aggressively towards the dog or those dogs passing by. Then the dog must sit and down in a crowd of people. The dog can pretty much do anything except react aggressively towards people. There's also normally a recall...the dog squeezing through the crowd to get to handler. * Traffic - usually includes 2 joggers, a biker and a car - to make sure the dog is okay with it (i.e. doesn't chase after or try to nip jogger or biker. With the car sometimes the judge will have the handler talk to and/or shake hands with the driver <--- dog is suppose to remain calm throughout). -------- Okies, now that you know a little bit about the sport. What about breeds? Well, I do Schutzhund with my 3 year old, Malinois female who is 22 inches by the way. She's my little 48 pound pocket rocket. Now because she is a bit on the small side, I actually worry less about injury. She's a really nice powerful female and very agile. I've only put a BH on her but I'm hoping to trial her for her SchH 1 in late spring or summer. Here's a video her breeder took a few weeks ago during training. She's SO HAPPY! As for my Shikoku, I'm currently training for Tracking and Obedience. I'm aiming to do a BH with Shoushuu sometime late this year or next year. Then hopefully Kotomi as well. It's different training Shikoku then Malinois though. It's much more difficult to keep their interest. Whereas Malinois are easily amused, lol. Anyways...Shoushuu has a great bite but horrible, horrible grip. Or there lack of one. I'm pretty sure I could train him to do the protection work. However, unless he learns to grip - NO WAY! I can already see a senario...he goes in for the bite and then...comes off the sleeve (dummy!). KERPLAT on the ground...yeah he would definitely hurt himself. He has the temperment for it, it's in him but he can't grip to save his life...poor guy -sighs-. I don't want him to sustain any injuries. Having said that, it's still fun to mess around on the bitework with him. At 1 year with the bite pillow: If you're interested in the Schutzhund sport and want to go somewhere with it. I suggest getting a German Shepherd, Malinois or Dutch Shepherd. Heck, go get a Border Collie. They aren't often seen in the sport but they can excel in it. I'll continue to dabble and "test the waters" in Schutzhund with each of my Shikoku. It's just for kicks though. I don't expect to go to Nationals or World's with a Shikoku <--- that would be awesome though, huh. I have Malinois for that. I do expect to eventually earn obedience titles and tracking titles with them though. Wanna hear something exciting? I taught Shoushuu how to bark on command! Oh and there's Kelly who has a Dutchie and a Kai and Schutzhund experience with both. She's lurking around somewhere. -sits and waits- ## the_november_rain · 2009-03-28T11:03:34.000Z thanks for the info Corina, Love it! ## kwyld · 2009-03-30T17:41:00.000Z The vid of the JRT is just awesome!! The trainer I was working with when I started Schutzhund told me Kohji could definitely be trained to do the sport, but I did not continue training him and focused more on rally obedience training with his wife instead. He would do very well with the tracking part and is a GREAT obedience dog, but just like Corina said with Kei's grip, Kohji doesn't like to tug on things or grip anything in his mouth, and I had a heck of a time trying to train him to hold anything in his mouth. I'm sure you can train a Shika to do it, but you might want to start with a working breed such as a GSD, Dutchie, Pit Bull, or Malinois. My Dutchie would be great at it and that's what they are meant for, well any type or working or sport training really. I focus on flyball with him at this point though. ## the_november_rain · 2009-03-30T18:49:17.000Z Thanks for the info everyone. I have never wanted to take a pup to nationals or any major serious competition. Otherwise I would get a more suitable dog but I would like to try it for recreational purposes and extra training-see what their potential is. --- **Navigate:** [Forum home](https://nihonken.org/community/?format=md) · [Sitemap](https://nihonken.org/community/sitemap.xml)