# Raw question! I am feeding a raw diet to my three shibas since July 10, 2008. We have had great results already: their coat, their stools, even energy, muscle tone is beginning, etc. Please know that before beginning raw, I did a ton of research - I have 2 binders FULL of everything from sources to protein and v… ## Thread In Food · started by tsukitsune · 21 replies - **Category:** [Food](https://nihonken.org/community/c/food) - **Forum:** [Nihon Ken Forum](https://nihonken.org/community/) ## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-08-12T11:52:46.000Z I am feeding a raw diet to my three shibas since July 10, 2008. We have had great results already: their coat, their stools, even energy, muscle tone is beginning, etc. Please know that before beginning raw, I did a ton of research - I have 2 binders FULL of everything from sources to protein and vitamin values to prey anatomy to meal plans. One thing I do not have sufficient information on is raw bone risks and benefits. I do have the nutritional value and the dental benefit information, but not any long term benefits of use and also long term or short term risks. I am now really thinking about it objectively since last night my grandfather told me about a GSD he had as a young man who died of punctured organs from chicken bones. Of course I assume he meant COOKED chicken bones, be he said all chicken bones will kill your dog, so if you want to see a grown man cry for days, keep feeding the way you are feeding. As he is my elder, I left it at that determined to do some extended research for peace of mind. All I'm really asking is if anyone A. Has been feeding raw for 1 year or more - had you any issues with any type of bones or meat and what did you do about it? B. Does anyone have any internet (or otherwise) sources on raw bone risk vs. benefit or case studies or examples? This isn't going to change what I feed, at the most how I feed, so if newbies are looking on, please know this is just for extended educational purposes and not to discourage you from doing your own research for your own situation before starting raw or any other diet. I actively feed raw chicken and fish bone sources with no incident, including chicken weight baring bones and salmon heads. I do not plan on feeding pork or beef bones as my dogs are too small to handle their density IMO. In fact, even in their stool, there hasn't even been undigested bone, its all been very good. **Edited to add: Before starting raw, we actually did an acidity test on a weight bearing chicken bone to mimic the PH level of a dog's stomach on meaty raw bones, it dissolved rather fast. I hope this post makes sense! Thanks ahead of time! ## ljowen123 (moderator) · 2008-08-12T12:10:34.000Z I wish I had info to give other than the fact I have heard about not giving chicken bones to dogs my whole life. However, that always involved cooked chicken, never raw. Hopefully someone will have the info that you need. I am very interested in the idea of feeding RAW, but am hesitant for some reason. No real logic behind it other than knowing with my schedule, it would leave the kids to feed the dogs at least three times a week. I always look forward to your posts about RAW just so I can keep learning about it. ## JessicaRabbit (admin) · 2008-08-12T12:22:53.000Z I have seen a number of raw sites that passionately endorsed the safety of RAW chicken bones. I totally understand you grandfather being concerned for the well being for your dogs, especially he lost a beloved canine family member to a bone incident. Cooked chicken bones can be very dangerous (you may recall a thread where I rushed Piglet to the vet because she ate a chicken bone off the street). I will see if I can find some of those sites. But take comfort in knowing a number of the RAW premade foods (all brands my dogs eat) Aunt Jennies, Natures Variety, and Steve's all contain raw bone. Merrick has canned food with raw bone in it too. You are being a good dog mom for being concerned but I think you have nothing to worry about. ## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-08-12T12:31:26.000Z I know , LJ. I think that was my major hang up when the thought of feeding raw initially crossed my mind, because it literally goes against everything I've been told (by professionals and non) - the harm of bone splinters, the risk of salmonella and other bacteria, as a common dog owner, I would not have enough ways to ensure proper nutrition, etc. But I think a major factor in my switching was doing my own research for the first time ever on the subject 2 years ago and uncovering where all those theories originated and compare them to proven stats of raw fed dogs over time, etc. I've read sources that conflict with one another and sources that are supposed to but coincide in favor of raw. In doing research, be careful to note WHO is sponsoring the research, WHO is conducting the research and WHAT type of bones (raw vs. cooked, poultry vs. beef) are being tested. It is on this fact that I find an insufficient amount of good honest research. **Thanks Jessica! I've had to take my mom's dog to the vet for eating cooked bones,too. I feel confident in what I feed them, I really do. I'm using the "KNOW THY DOG" approach to affirming what I'm doing is correct by them, I can see it, the proof is in the dog! We actually used the premade for a week before going total prey-model raw, and they really liked it, but dental benefit wise, we took a shot at raw bones, (chicken, turkey, fish and as of late pigs feet) and have had NO issues at all! But my grandpa was so passionate about what he was telling me, he - a retired marine - teared up talking about that dog he had who died in his arms.. I just thought holy crap - do I have enough research!?!?!? I think if more unbiased research was available on the benefits of biologically and size appropriate raw meaty bones in a dogs diet, the commercial dry dog food companies would be out of business, maybe that is why I'm having a hard time finding it!! How are you compensating for healthy teeth with home cooked? ## ljowen123 (moderator) · 2008-08-12T13:01:45.000Z I've got a question for both of you on the pre-made: Can I integrate Pre-made RAW into my normal grain-free rotation feeding schedule? or, would it be better to that as an addition overall? I think the kids could probably handle the pre-made. Un-biased research is my dream. Not just in dog food research but in everything. I find many research programs get skewed (sometimes unconsciously) by who is providing the grant. I know what I deal with in my market and finding research on specific species that wasn't backed by a specific institute or company is very difficult. ## JessicaRabbit (admin) · 2008-08-12T13:05:34.000Z I brush their teeth. They chew on organic cotton ropes. Miko is teething so I have tons of Nyla Bones right now and a bunch of the Planet Dog bones too. And then when a dog is getting some alone time with mom (they are all too aggressive to do bones together) they get raw bones. I do lamb bones or supervised beef bones. Truthfully, Piglet is recovering from knee surgery and Miko gets spayed next week. I am sleeping on the floor in the living room with Piglet and Miko so beyond their regular feeding and supplement schedule, I am just trying to maintain sanity in the Berndt houshold. You probably have already read this, but it is an interesting article about prey model diets vs. standard RAW ## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-08-12T13:24:44.000Z regarding mixing premade and kibble, certainly! but choose which meal is which, like AM is raw and PM is kibble, since digestion times vary so much - raw is usually digested within 4-6 hours and kibble between 12-16 hours. We were doing this with premade (am) and wellness core (pm) before totally switching to prey model raw. I think the main concern is letting the dogs naturally digest raw so the content doesn't ferment in the stomach or get held up in digesting letting the bacteria become stronger than it should. premade is definitely easier to handle, you can just cut their portion, freeze, defrost, dump into bowl. but make sure they know to treat it as sanitary as a raw piece of chicken, same thing just different form. ## brada1878 (admin) · 2008-08-12T13:54:56.000Z We gave our pups bone... A: We stayed away from Turkey backs [too much bone and can be kinda sharp], Beef bones [little Shiba mouths can't take that hard of a bone - excluding oxtail], Any "shank bone" [very very hard]. We only gave RAW [obviously] bone and only bone that would be digested. Our dogs did great with chicken bone [thigh, leg, wing], oxtail, turkey legs and wing, duck leg/thigh/wing, and some lamb. The only issue we have had is that Maui slightly chipped a tooth on a beef rib once - that's why we stopped giving those. B: http://www.rawlearning.com, http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html, http://www.rawmeatybones.com/ ---- *We did notice Maui would get powdery poops if we fed too much bone. *The risk of infection from parasites and bacteria from RAW food when ingested by dogs is WAY LOWER then humans due to a dogs extremely short GI tract. That is why its such a risk for humans, we have super long GI tracts and so the bacteria has more time to become an issue. Dogs eat cat/horse/dog poo and don't get sick - could you do that? *RAW bone is digested in the dogs GI - the splintering only happens with cooked bone. You probably know most of that, but that was my brain dump on the topic. Hope it helps some. ---- ## JessicaRabbit (admin) · 2008-08-12T14:00:30.000Z I always keep some premade in my freezer for when I just don't feel like going to the market. On a cool note my neighbor asked what a good "feel better puppy" gift is for Piglet. I told her Piglet LOVES rabbit. SHe shows up the next day with a whole rabbit for Piggy. I had the dogs share, they were SO PSYCHED. Apparently there is a market a mile from my house on Federal Hill (Providences Little Italy) that sells all their favorite meats! I am so excited. They have rabbits, pheasant, goat, the obvious ones (turkeys and chickens), quail, you name it. I can't wait to go shopping. And yes all my friends think it is hilarious to hear a vegan talk like this. ## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-08-12T14:22:24.000Z wow, thanks everyone, these responses are awesome, they really really are. I guess I sort of 'knew' the answer, just wanted some affirmation from longer-than-a-month raw feeders/experience! I did know most of it, but I'm glad that others use(d) the same info! I feel good about my research! See, we have not had any bone issues, but we are only feeding since July 10.. i'm sticking by these principles: 1. Know Thy Dog. 2. Feed Smart. I know which are gulpers (Tsuki/ Hachi) and which chew the bone to a pulp (Kitsu) - I know what a normal stool looks like, and their potty schedule. I know which cooked foods give them digestion issue, so we are slowly introducing those items in raw form with no issue at all. I know them. Feeding smart to me means giving them size appropriate pieces of bone-in meat to handle, like 1/2 a cornish hen or a chicken quarter or we'll hold a thigh/drumstick for safe measure - we base the piece of food by their head size, almost as big, as big, but not larger except of gorge days 2 days before a fast. Its become a passionate regimen or research and involvement. I guess at the end of the day, the question for me is: Do the benefits outweigh the potential risks? And, for me, the answer is a resounding yes. When I follow my 2 rules, I am able to minimize the risk to nearly null. And the benefits are so profound, it will always be worth it for me because this is such an incredible diet, it really makes you be involved in their entire system of eating and digesting and all around wellness. It feels really good to be this involved in my dogs' health. And the benefits of that far outweigh the risks of feeding kibble or the work it takes to do it all properly. = = = = = Jess! That market sounds awesome! So far i've only found asian markets for duck parts, quail eggs and fish heads. Our local farmers market sells stuff like pigs feet and fresh pigs ears and chicken feet and beef tongue. ALTHOUGH - visiting a slaughter house to pick up our order almost made me turn vegan... yikes. But, we need to do it, and I honestly enjoy hacking up poultry.. ## Leonberger (admin) · 2008-08-12T14:26:08.000Z I'm thinking you girls would love Portuguese markets! You'd find all those things in pretty much any of them, hehehe. I need to do some research to be able to give around 2 RAW meals a week to Kuma. On weekends, when I have time to prepare and plan food for him. And I have to keep in mind he's an Akita that will eat a S#itload of meat in one go. ## JessicaRabbit (admin) · 2008-08-12T14:50:40.000Z I didn't even think about portuguese markets! I live in Rhode Island as you may recall, and of course Rhode Island IS little Portugal. I will have to do some exploring. ## Leonberger (admin) · 2008-08-12T19:25:03.000Z Do explore, because you'll probably find everything you want to feed them. Around here we do eat loads of stuff you guys might find disgusting. Nat surely did when she came here, hehehe. If they have access to stuff from here you'll have no problem finding rabbit, quail, hare, cow's tongue and feet stuff like that. ## JessicaRabbit (admin) · 2008-08-12T19:26:14.000Z I am super excited now! ## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-08-13T12:35:16.000Z FYI - if you get a bird and need to cut it into portions, this is a great video how-to! I'm not this efficient with a turkey, but chickens and quails are a breeze! http://www.dogster.com/video/book?i=197235 ## JessicaRabbit (admin) · 2008-08-13T12:42:38.000Z I have been making Jay do most of the butchering. I can pull meat from bone WHEN COOKED. But raw, I am a big chicken (pun intended) I have to down load the video on my desktop probably. No audio card on my laptop still. It's on my list...(my perpetual list of things I have yet to do) ## kwyld · 2008-08-13T12:54:06.000Z I have a question regarding raw. I am feeding a balanced premade raw diet(Nature's variety), should I add extra Vit C to it? Should I get a supplement made for dogs or should I feed a little bit of fresh apples(minus the seeds of course!) There are apples in the ingredients already but I'm wondering if they should get more for an immune system boost? ## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-08-13T13:27:08.000Z We do not add vitamic C, but we do whole raw organs which do provide some vitamin C, but to varying degrees depending on which organ and also the animal it comes from. It's debatable that dietary vitamin C for a normal healthy dog is even a concern given that their bodies manufacture it, something the human body doesn't do. But given that it is a powerful antioxidant and has joint-healthy properties, perhaps it would be better to add for a dog with joint issues or an older dog. We give ours cooked peas sometimes as 'table scraps' which have vitamin C properties b/c Tsuki has joint issues. I also know of a BARF feeder that supplements with Ester C for his older husky and swears by it. If Tsuki has worse issues later in life, we'll probably look into a supplement regimen that includes vitamin C. Do the ingredients in the premade raw lend themselves to vitamin c added already? do they have organs? veggies? if not, I don't know too much about premade, but it would be worth checking into! (I'm going by information in: How to Have a Healthier Dog: The Benefits of Vitamins and Minerals for Your Dog’s Life Cycles authored by Wendell O. Belfield, D.V.M. and Martin Zucker) ## JessicaRabbit (admin) · 2008-08-13T13:59:56.000Z I don't think you need to supplement vitamin c. I also use the natures variety and it is pretty well balanced. I do give raspberries and blueberries as treats. My dogs love them, when its hot I give them frozen ones and they are psyched (especially Miko who is starting to teethe) ## kwyld · 2008-08-13T14:36:57.000Z Jen this is the ingredient list of the formula I feed the most often: http://www.naturesvariety.com/raw\_products\_orgchicken Thank you for the info, you know I have read that they synthesize their own Vit C, but I must have forgot. Aplaceforpaws.com got me thinking I should add it, they sell it and recommend it. But I'm not quite sure all of their diets are completely balanced maybe that's why they recommend it. ## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-08-13T15:19:02.000Z well the chicken formula boasts blueberries, which according to nutrition data has vitamin C in their raw and frozen form: http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/fruits-and-fruit-juices/1851/2 So you are supplementing. Maybe if they age and need more, you can supplement more, but they do make their own and are getting extra from the food. ## tsukitsune (moderator) · 2008-08-13T18:06:17.000Z Gooood article on raw written by a vet! http://www.dolittler.com/index.cfm/2007/11/11/pet.vet.veterinary.dog.cat.veterinarian.raw.BARF.diet.nutrition Having Hachi in for her spay and having to request they do NOT feed her Hill's, rather the orijen I packed for her because we feed raw got into quite a debate at the vet's office because she'll be on antibiotics and they will make her more susceptible to e.coli and salmonella per the vet tech. Phooey. I explained how I had researched for a month or so about how to supplement pre and probiotics while she was on the antibiotic after her spay. My vet's office just cannot accept the fact that a simple dog owner can possibly take control of her dog's nutrition and well being with complete research and dietary needs fulfilled efficiently without commercial dry food. Anyway, this article explains a bit more of the vet's standpoint I think. --- **Navigate:** [Forum home](https://nihonken.org/community/?format=md) · [Sitemap](https://nihonken.org/community/sitemap.xml)