It looks like you partially answered my question above as I was writing it
I always figured there was other medium and small dogs, but I guess I assumed that when 1920s and 1930s arrived and NIPPO went out looking for 'National Treasure' breeds these other breeds had either went extinct a long time ago or had too much western dog mixed in and basically became something else.
Is it that Ruyuku Inu is Okinawan and not 'Japanese-Japanese'? Okinawa did come under Japanese rule, but relatively late in the history of Japan.
Why do you think the small went and combined two distinct types and abandoned two distinct types to have one general type and the medium went the exact opposite?
Is there a large beyond Akita (not counting the current Japanese Akita vs USA Akita divide)(and not counting the Sakhalin)
I am sure part of the problem is that breed itself is an artificial construct so it will never sit perfectly on any population.
edit to add, I haven't heard of the Mikawa Inu but am skeptical of the Higo Rou Ken, or at least skeptical it really carries any japanese wolf blood.
wow... So that's a lot of questions. Also, many of them I do not think can be answered as a lot of the history of these dogs is not documented well. A lot of the information is passed down via word of mouth and not so much as fact written in books.
I can suggest a few books to read, that you may have already seen, but one in particular is "Empire of Dogs: Canines, Japan, and the Making of the Modern Imperial World (Studies of the Weatherhead East Asian Institute, Columbia University)" http://www.amazon.com/Empire-Dogs-Weatherhead-Institute-University/dp/080145025X
In pre WWII Japan, the Nihon Ken was seen as a bit of a nuisance animal. The concept of owning a pet was not really popular, and due to the lack of interest/need in/for hunting, the need for hunting dogs was decreasing. During this time, western breeds were much more popular in Japan than the native breeds (the Nihon Ken).
After WWII Japan became very focused on preserving its heritage, and that is when/why NIPPO was created - to preserve the heritage native Japanese dogs (the Nihon Ken). It was at this point when the Nihon Ken landrace was divided and split into the breeds that we know of today. It's my opinion that there was likely much mixing of the various Nihon Ken types (modern day breeds) between WWI and for several years after WWII (during the "reconstruction" period where the various NK types were being preserved into the breeds that NIPPO had created).
You are right that the Kai Ken is smaller, this is the reason the Kai Ken Aigokai (KKA) was created. The size of the Kai fell between the small and medium sized standards that NIPPO created and so the KKA was created in response to that - to preserve the accurate size of the breed. Today the KKA holds the majority of the population. Also, WRT hunting, you left out Kamoshika - this was really the Kai Ken's primary game.
The Hokkaido has two different preservations too (outside of NIPPO), and each have a different standard. So, there is a variation in the size of the Hokkaido Ken - some are Kai-sized, others are Kishu-sized. I wouldn't say that the Hokkaido is the largest of the medium sized NK.
Really, the story of the NK is not unlike many of the aboriginal hunting breeds found throughout the east. A landrace of hunting dogs with no particular standard and a variation in type based more on function than anything else was divided into separate breeds with separate standards and then became "pure"... In the majority of the breed description I have read there is verbiage that implies that the breed has always been pure - but this is just normal breeder indulgence. Realistically, there is no such thing as a "pure" aboriginal landrace.
As for the differences in the breeds today. It's going to be hard to pinpoint traits that are historically known to be specific to just one breed. The breeds we know of today are very different from what they were before the creation of NIPPO. The Japanese have done an amazing job refining each breed into what they are today, and with each passing year the breeds become more refined. A few subtle things I can think of is that Kai tend to have larger ears, Shikoku tend to have a longer back, and the Kishu tends to be rather square in proportions.
When it comes to temperament, they are all silent hunters and are primarily bay dogs. The Kishu is know for doing both catch and bay work, so that's unique to the breed, however I have come to learn that any dogs will "catch" as long as they feel their game is overpowered.
I've owned all the NK breeds now. Really, the breeds can be as similar or as different as you want them to be. You can find a million similarities between them, and you can find a million differences - it really depends on your angle. But, generally speaking, for sure the modern day NK are different enough to be their own breeds. I'm not going to bother listing the differences and similarities. That's too much.
^ I wrote that when there were just a few posts in this thread, but didn't submit it... Then went and had some dinner, came back and realized I had not posted it. Once I posted it, I see there were 26 comments since I wrote it! So, I apologize if I repeated anything that's already been written.
Brad did a good job answering questions on the history, so I'll just add itty bits here.
I believe that the Shiba was in bad shape after the wars, so the stories say that a couple of the lines/individual types were combined to help reinvigorate the Shiba as a breed, so this may have been when they came together.
I don't think the Higo Rou Ken has any wolf content today considering the Japanese wolf is long extinct, but does that mean that it isn't a type? I'm not so sure. I don't know enough about it other than that it is still used as a hunting dog, appears very rare, and is not NIPPO recognized.
I don't have any additional information on the Mikawa, but there is a thread around here on the Kawakami Ken.
a few questions on NIPPO. I have read that during WW2 Japanese dogs were killed for their fur to line the coats for soldiers which decimated many different sub-types, and that after the war's end, when there was an interest in in thing of 'cultural significance' that's when NIPPO went out and 'discovered' the 6 breeds were are discussing here.
I've also heard/read that NIPPO went out in the late 1920s and early 1930s when there was a great deal of national pride to uncover and document dogs of 'cultural significance' because western imports had so overtaken the original japanese breeds.
Do you have a strong opinion either way as far as when NIPPO was actually doing it's thing?
On one hand, just like issuing Katanas and talking up the connection to Samurai was used to bolster pride of culture and militaristic feelings during the 1930s run-up to WW 2, looking for the remaining pockets of dogs not crossed with western breeds makes sense to have happened in the 1930s. Also, there seems to be breed standards labeled 1935, and I think in the early 1930s is when the Akita and then Shiba were declared national treasures, then Shikoku and Hokkaido in late 1930s. I don't recall if/when the other 2 were declared.
From what I have read, during WW2 when harvesting dogs for jackets, German Shepherds and GSD mixes were exempt because that breed was seen as militarily useful, but Akita were not. This lead to a lot of GSD x Akita. This also seems to imply that being a national treasure didn't protect a dog from being made into a coat.
The lack of food plus being seen as a war resource, that seems to have taken a huge toll on the Japanese dog of both mixed western as well as 'original' breeds. If there were breeds or at least regional subtypes recognized in the 1930s (when it seems 6 distinct types even if 'one breed' were at different times declared treasures) and if being a treasure didn't help a dog survive I'd have expected 1 or 2 of those 6 to have been pushed to extinction simply due to WW2.
Is it possible that NIPPO actually did research in the 1930s and may have noted who knows how many regional subtypes of medium size, then, after the war it was found that only 4 regional subtypes remained in any sort of numbers so there was some 'backdating' Is it possible that somewhere between most and ALL of NIPPOs work was actually post WW2 and they fudged some dates to make things seem more authentic?
From a prominent Shiba breeder, Nobuo Atsumi, on the history of NIPPO:
On May 5, 1928 Dr. Hirokichi Saito and his group met to establish Nihonken Hozonkai, (NIPPO), Association for Preservation of the Japanese Dog. It all started when Dr. Saito was unable to find a single indigenous dog after a long search and realized that the Japanese dogs were in danger of extinction. In those days, pure bred Japanese dogs were non-existent in the cities. Early pioneers of Nippo traveled far and wide in search of indigenous dogs in the mountainous areas of Japan. Their intention was to preserve the Japanese dogs as true to original form as possible by seeking out those primitive hunting dogs still existed in the remote areas and setting up a planned breeding program. The academic circles supported the movement by carrying out researches from historical,zoological, archeological and anthropological perspectives. The first president of Nippo was Dr. Kaburagi, a professor at the Tokyo University. In 1932, Nippo published its first newsletter and began registering Japanese dogs. Nippo was recognized by the Ministry of Education in 1937 and received a support of the Japanese Government for preserving the Japanese heritage and culture. It has since been active as the oldest and most authoritative kennel club in Japan.
On November 6, 1932, the first Nippo Show was held in Ginza, the central area of Tokyo. Out of eighty-one dogs entered, only ten dogs were rated as having stock quality and awarded "Commendation Award". Out of ten dogs, four were Akitas, two were Hokkaidos, two were Kishus, one was a medium size dog from Shinshu area and one was Shiba Inu.
Does it strike no one else as odd that 6 groups of dogs were found...all in low numbers, and then after WW 2 which all but wiped out dogs in Japan, the only 'casualty' of the 6 groups was loosing a few subtypes of Shiba Inu?
Do you think they were just less selective after WW2? Or were the mountainous regions where these dogs were originally uncovered in the 1930s so isolated that no government officials went up there to round up dogs?
I know the spotty tongue has already been addressed... but my Kai has a very spotty tongue, and my Chihuahua (solid fawn color) has a spot on her tongue. You can only see the spot on the chi when she yawns, but the Kai's tongue has gotten spottier as her brindle has come out more.
@Crispy said "I believe that the Shiba was in bad shape after the wars, so the stories say that a couple of the lines/individual types were combined to help reinvigorate the Shiba as a breed, so this may have been when they came together." I remember reading this well. It would make sense with the large size differences between the Shiba. I've seen some that are about 30lbs and at a healthy weight, and mine is a little chubby at 16lbs. The other breeds seem to have a more regular weight and size range.
Does it strike no one else as odd that 6 groups of dogs were found...all in low numbers, and then after WW 2 which all but wiped out dogs in Japan, the only 'casualty' of the 6 groups was loosing a few subtypes of Shiba Inu?
Do you think they were just less selective after WW2? Or were the mountainous regions where these dogs were originally uncovered in the 1930s so isolated that no government officials went up there to round up dogs?
I'm sure the remoteness had to do with it, both in the info on the amount of casualties as well as access to those dogs. Some of the dogs, like the dogs in Kai, were kept in a semi-domesticated way, and so they could have escaped the harvesting of fur by retreating into the mountains.
But all the NK breeds had casualties from the war. The Shiba and Akita are just the most popular breeds, and so you find more info on them.
"the only 'casualty' of the 6 groups was loosing a few subtypes of Shiba Inu"
This really depends on your perspective. Breeds are human contructs, that is, we categorize dogs as one breed or another based on pretty arbitrary stuff. They could just have easily considered those "subtypes" to be a different small sized breed.
They decided to lump the dogs into a certain number breeds; that doesn't mean there were only that many types or landraces of dogs. They just labeled the rest of the dogs they found as whichever one they most looked like.
so, it turns out that in addition to the 6 most common Nihon ken that were declared national monuments, there was at least one more, the Koshi-no-inu, that had so few numbers after WW2 that it dwindled into extinction and/or was absorbed into other nihon ken 'breeds'
This makes me wonder if there was possibly an 8th or 9th (or who knows how many other) breeds that were noted by the NIPPO people in the 30s and declared national treasures who didn't survive the ravages of WW2
If you are interested in population numbers, you can see yearly registration stats in the writeups for each breed on Shigeru's blog (same info also available on the forum, but you gotta dig for it).
I just wanted to throw out there that my Kai does not have tongue spots. At all. Which I think is a fault for NIPPO. (and my GSD / Husky mix has the 3 cutest ones ever!)
Tain- we have KKA Kai not NIPPO Kai. Nippo isn't a fan of tongue spots- all other things being equal. KKA isn't fussed over tongues.
The NIPPO judge in Ohio last year said that (in NIPPO) spotted tongues were not a fault at this time, since most kai have them and they'd all be faulted, but pinker tongues were preferred and I should find Matsu a girlfriend with a pink(er) tongue since his is completely black.
And few years ago in Finnish Winner dog show there was JKC judge who wanted to see my Kais tongues. My female has really spotted tongue and the judge liked it very much ,
Okay, after doing some more reading and thanks to some links here I think I have a better idea of history, which I will relate. (However, my main question does remain)
12,000 years ago, Jomon people showed up with their dogs. 2,000 years agoA later immigration of people from mainland Asia called Yayoi brought new agricultural, weaving, ironworking, and bronzeworking...and their own dogs.
For the main Japanese islands, the Jomon and Yayoi people mixed and formed a new people the 'japanese-japanese' also sometimes called Yamato Japanese. Their dogs mixed as well. The Jomon who did not mix were pushed north and isolated on Hokkaido island, and became the people know as the Ainu. The Ainu hunted and fished more than farmed, and wore furs rather than weaved clothing. Their dogs didn't intermix much with the new dogs, but did some intermixing with some dogs from the North.
Additionally, there is a chain of small islands that includes the island of Okinawa that runs between Taiwan and the southern tip of Japan called the Ryukyu islands which were also populated by the Jomon (and their dogs). Like the Ainu in Hokkaido, they didn't mix with the Yayoi and stayed their own people (although from time to time over the last 1000 years Japanese rulers have conquered the islands and japanese-japanese have lived there) These dogs were also not influenced much by the Yayoi dogs, and show close genetic ties to the dogs on Hokkaido Island...but also had some intermixing with some other dog populations, probably pacific islander.
Time progressed and the Japanese people went through various cultural and government phases roughly covered as Ancient, Classical (power resided in the Imperial court), Feudal (clans lead by warlords/Daimyos had much power, emperor was a figurehead only, 'age of samurai', exactly who was ruling changed as military power of the big families fluxuated) running up to the Edo period which ran from 1600 to 1868.
Edo period was the period of Shoguns, strict class hierarchy, and an isolationist policy.
During the Edo period most Japanese were rice farmers and had no need for dogs. In the Edo period with it's class stratification, there was also very little moving around by the lowest tiers of people. Regional dialects sprouted up. The people living away from the cities and farmlands were quite isolated and they too had regional dialects develope, as well as regional variants of the basic medium sized Japanese dog which was used for hunting.
Edo period and isolationism ends, and the Empire of Japan is formed and rushes to modernize. Western influence is high, many western dogs and western styles of hunting are introduced. There is much mixing with local dogs. Except in the most isolated corners, this intermixing 'dissolves' the native breeds. It has been said that by 1920 in the cities the native dogs were totally gone, replaced by western dogs or heavy western mixes.
In the late 1920s, NIPPO is formed to codify the native Japanese Dog.
All native Japanese dogs are viewed as being the same 'breed' or 'type' and have the same standard, with some variation due to size.
All native Japanese dogs were bred for one roll: hunting.
Native dogs of sufficient purity are ONLY being found in the isolated mountain regions.
Findings:
One Japanese Breed, consisting of 3 size varieties. Within each size variety, there are regional sub-types.
The small ones, called Shiba Inu to cover many various regional subtypes, as a large group are recognized as a national monument.
the single large subtype (that not too long ago would have been just another medium sized sub-type, but was bred up in size for dog-fighting purposes ) the Akita, was recognized as a national monument.
Of the MANY medium sized sub-types, 5 were recognized as national monuments. (Kishu, Kai Ken, Shikoku, Hokkaido, Koshi-no-uni)
It is unknown why the various other medium size local sub-types were not individually recognized, but I speculate it relates to quality, purity, number of animals, and distinctiveness.
It is unknown why the small type were recognized as national monuments as a group rather than having the clearly identifiable regional sub-types is unknown, but I speculate it relates to a relative low number of small hunting dogs, as well as the fact that some regional small dog variants were actually not that much smaller than the medium type. However, it appeared there was an effort to mark distinct regional sub-types for the small variety as was done for the medium variety, but WW2 happened.
WW2 happened and the dog population was decimated.
Of the 5 medium sized version, the regional sub-types recognized as national monuments, thanks to extreme isolation, 4 of the 5 made it through the war with enough numbers to continue one. One had so few numbers it faded away by 1970. An untold number of regional sub-types were lost. A handful of regional subtypes that were NOT recognized as national monuments hung on, but got very little recognition by NIPPO or the Japanese Kennel Club (which concentrated more on western breeds) and by now may have faded into oblivion or been absorbed by the 'national monument' subtypes.
Of the small hunting dog, none of the regional sub-types had enough numbers to be viable as distinct entities, so much crossing was done and the modern Shiba Inu is a conglomeration of the earlier distinct Shiba types.
The single large version, the Akita, survived.
Each size version broken down into regional sub-types
Small Version Japanese Dog (given the name Shiba Inu and recognized collectively as a national monument) regional sub-types that were blended together to create the current Shiba Inu -the San'in: (currently "Shimane & Tottori" prefectures) actually more medium-small than small, -the Mino:(current "Gifu" prefecture) very similar to the modern Shiba, but had a sickle tail. -Shinshu Shiba: (current "Nagano" prefecture) - very similar to modern Shiba, but had round eyes and a black mask
These three exist to an extent as 'strains' in the Shiba bloodline. In some of the areas where these sub-types were found, there is effort to keep these subtypes pure (San'in especially), but with limited numbers this is proving very difficult.
Small Version Regional sub-types that either had faded away prior to WW2 or didn't make it through WW2 with enough numbers and exposure to be used in rebuilding the Neo-Shiba. Some may exist today, but with very little formal recognition.
-Kawakami - mixed info here, MAY have been used to rebuild the Neo-Shiba -Kimawa - foundation type of the Shinshu sub-type -Jukkoku S -Kiso Shiba -Sekishuken -Inabaken -Tateyamaken -Fukushima -Niigata -Gumma -Yamanashi -Nagano (probably alternate name for ShinShu Shiba) -Gifu (probably alternate name for Mino Shiba) -Hozonkai
Medium version Regional sub-types that either faded away prior to WW2, or didn't make it through WW2, or were sub-summed into the 4 sub-types specifically named as a national monument, or exist in small numbers yet today but with very little formal recognition
-Sekishu - one of the foundation types that formed the San-in -Imba - one of the foundation types that formed the San-in -Shinshu -Mikawa - found both on Shikoku island and Mikawa province, may have been subsumed into the Shikoku -Higo Rou Ken - dubious claim made that it is part Japanese Wolf. -Karafuto - probably subsumed by the Hokkaido, or may have been an alternate name.
-Koshi-no-inu - Recognized as a national monument prior to WW2, but survived with so few numbers that it faded away in the 1970s
Note, the Shikoku is a Regional Subtype of the Medium Variety of Japanese dog, but for a while there was an effort to have 3 different 'lines' based on some regional variation within the Shikoku, basically regional sub-sub-types -Awa, -Hongawa -Hata
These regional subtypes all fall under the broad description of the Japanese Dog as originally penned by NIPPO, but are viewed as distinct enough to to temperment and morphological differences.
Exactly what these differences are that set apart the Kai Ken, Shikoku, Kishu, and Hokkaido is what I am working on understanding. You guys have been helpful as now I known some (Kai smallest, differences between ear size and tip shape, etc)
This discussion is way over my head, but are you asking now about temperament and personality differences? If so, I only have a Kai and a Shiba (Well they're my only NK dogs), but from what I've read, the Kai seem to be more sensitive and eager to please than the other breeds. If I'm wrong, please feel free to correct me or ignore me altogether!
@Wrylybrindle Shelby's tongue has some serious spots now, too! What's strange is that she has more on the underside. I thought tongue spots went all the way through.
On a tangent, but during the Japanese occupation of Korea, they also grouped the dogs there as breeds. Jindo and Poongsan. They weren't assigned Japanese national monument designation but some other name, ie. Joseon national monuments or something to that effect.
Here's the cover to a report that triggered the Jindo's designation:
Another reason why WW2 was such a horrible time for dogs in Japan was due to the need for fur to supply the war effort. Many of the troops fighting the Russian invasion to the north needed warm clothing and so dog and cat pelts were mainly used to provide warmth. Also Since food was scarce, pet ownership was frowned upon and somewhat seen as unnecessary. Many dog and car owners were forced to relinquish ownership of their pets to this. So because of this, many of the NK living in remote regions survived to form the dogs we have today.
Nice thread. Always love good discussion.. @akodo1 you might like this link here.. has little bit of info on Mino, Kawakami and san-in shiba. Some of the links are buggy and will say link not found.
Comments
It looks like you partially answered my question above as I was writing it
I always figured there was other medium and small dogs, but I guess I assumed that when 1920s and 1930s arrived and NIPPO went out looking for 'National Treasure' breeds these other breeds had either went extinct a long time ago or had too much western dog mixed in and basically became something else.
Is it that Ruyuku Inu is Okinawan and not 'Japanese-Japanese'? Okinawa did come under Japanese rule, but relatively late in the history of Japan.
Why do you think the small went and combined two distinct types and abandoned two distinct types to have one general type and the medium went the exact opposite?
Is there a large beyond Akita (not counting the current Japanese Akita vs USA Akita divide)(and not counting the Sakhalin)
I am sure part of the problem is that breed itself is an artificial construct so it will never sit perfectly on any population.
edit to add, I haven't heard of the Mikawa Inu but am skeptical of the Higo Rou Ken, or at least skeptical it really carries any japanese wolf blood.
I can suggest a few books to read, that you may have already seen, but one in particular is "Empire of Dogs: Canines, Japan, and the Making of the Modern Imperial World (Studies of the Weatherhead East Asian Institute, Columbia University)"
http://www.amazon.com/Empire-Dogs-Weatherhead-Institute-University/dp/080145025X
I'll give you my take on the history of the NK, a brief version. Also, you could read my PADS article too, it covers some of these questions.
http://www.bradanderson.org/blog/2012/03/my-article-on-the-six-native-japanese-dog-breeds-has-been-published/
In pre WWII Japan, the Nihon Ken was seen as a bit of a nuisance animal. The concept of owning a pet was not really popular, and due to the lack of interest/need in/for hunting, the need for hunting dogs was decreasing. During this time, western breeds were much more popular in Japan than the native breeds (the Nihon Ken).
After WWII Japan became very focused on preserving its heritage, and that is when/why NIPPO was created - to preserve the heritage native Japanese dogs (the Nihon Ken). It was at this point when the Nihon Ken landrace was divided and split into the breeds that we know of today. It's my opinion that there was likely much mixing of the various Nihon Ken types (modern day breeds) between WWI and for several years after WWII (during the "reconstruction" period where the various NK types were being preserved into the breeds that NIPPO had created).
You are right that the Kai Ken is smaller, this is the reason the Kai Ken Aigokai (KKA) was created. The size of the Kai fell between the small and medium sized standards that NIPPO created and so the KKA was created in response to that - to preserve the accurate size of the breed. Today the KKA holds the majority of the population. Also, WRT hunting, you left out Kamoshika - this was really the Kai Ken's primary game.
The Hokkaido has two different preservations too (outside of NIPPO), and each have a different standard. So, there is a variation in the size of the Hokkaido Ken - some are Kai-sized, others are Kishu-sized. I wouldn't say that the Hokkaido is the largest of the medium sized NK.
Really, the story of the NK is not unlike many of the aboriginal hunting breeds found throughout the east. A landrace of hunting dogs with no particular standard and a variation in type based more on function than anything else was divided into separate breeds with separate standards and then became "pure"... In the majority of the breed description I have read there is verbiage that implies that the breed has always been pure - but this is just normal breeder indulgence. Realistically, there is no such thing as a "pure" aboriginal landrace.
As for the differences in the breeds today. It's going to be hard to pinpoint traits that are historically known to be specific to just one breed. The breeds we know of today are very different from what they were before the creation of NIPPO. The Japanese have done an amazing job refining each breed into what they are today, and with each passing year the breeds become more refined. A few subtle things I can think of is that Kai tend to have larger ears, Shikoku tend to have a longer back, and the Kishu tends to be rather square in proportions.
When it comes to temperament, they are all silent hunters and are primarily bay dogs. The Kishu is know for doing both catch and bay work, so that's unique to the breed, however I have come to learn that any dogs will "catch" as long as they feel their game is overpowered.
I've owned all the NK breeds now. Really, the breeds can be as similar or as different as you want them to be. You can find a million similarities between them, and you can find a million differences - it really depends on your angle. But, generally speaking, for sure the modern day NK are different enough to be their own breeds. I'm not going to bother listing the differences and similarities. That's too much.
Shigeru ( @TheWalrus ) did write up a post about the differences in them as pups: http://nihonken.blogspot.com/2014/01/puppybreed-temperament.html
I believe that the Shiba was in bad shape after the wars, so the stories say that a couple of the lines/individual types were combined to help reinvigorate the Shiba as a breed, so this may have been when they came together.
I don't think the Higo Rou Ken has any wolf content today considering the Japanese wolf is long extinct, but does that mean that it isn't a type? I'm not so sure. I don't know enough about it other than that it is still used as a hunting dog, appears very rare, and is not NIPPO recognized.
I don't have any additional information on the Mikawa, but there is a thread around here on the Kawakami Ken.
I've also heard/read that NIPPO went out in the late 1920s and early 1930s when there was a great deal of national pride to uncover and document dogs of 'cultural significance' because western imports had so overtaken the original japanese breeds.
Do you have a strong opinion either way as far as when NIPPO was actually doing it's thing?
On one hand, just like issuing Katanas and talking up the connection to Samurai was used to bolster pride of culture and militaristic feelings during the 1930s run-up to WW 2, looking for the remaining pockets of dogs not crossed with western breeds makes sense to have happened in the 1930s. Also, there seems to be breed standards labeled 1935, and I think in the early 1930s is when the Akita and then Shiba were declared national treasures, then Shikoku and Hokkaido in late 1930s. I don't recall if/when the other 2 were declared.
From what I have read, during WW2 when harvesting dogs for jackets, German Shepherds and GSD mixes were exempt because that breed was seen as militarily useful, but Akita were not. This lead to a lot of GSD x Akita. This also seems to imply that being a national treasure didn't protect a dog from being made into a coat.
The lack of food plus being seen as a war resource, that seems to have taken a huge toll on the Japanese dog of both mixed western as well as 'original' breeds. If there were breeds or at least regional subtypes recognized in the 1930s (when it seems 6 distinct types even if 'one breed' were at different times declared treasures) and if being a treasure didn't help a dog survive I'd have expected 1 or 2 of those 6 to have been pushed to extinction simply due to WW2.
Is it possible that NIPPO actually did research in the 1930s and may have noted who knows how many regional subtypes of medium size, then, after the war it was found that only 4 regional subtypes remained in any sort of numbers so there was some 'backdating' Is it possible that somewhere between most and ALL of NIPPOs work was actually post WW2 and they fudged some dates to make things seem more authentic?
Well, if nothing else, all my questions got this board hopping!
Do you think they were just less selective after WW2? Or were the mountainous regions where these dogs were originally uncovered in the 1930s so isolated that no government officials went up there to round up dogs?
@Crispy said "I believe that the Shiba was in bad shape after the wars, so the stories say that a couple of the lines/individual types were combined to help reinvigorate the Shiba as a breed, so this may have been when they came together."
I remember reading this well. It would make sense with the large size differences between the Shiba. I've seen some that are about 30lbs and at a healthy weight, and mine is a little chubby at 16lbs. The other breeds seem to have a more regular weight and size range.
His contact information outside the forum is on his website/blog: http://www.nihonken.blogspot.jp/
But all the NK breeds had casualties from the war. The Shiba and Akita are just the most popular breeds, and so you find more info on them.
Thanks for the link, I left a comment on one of his posts basically asking this same question.
This really depends on your perspective. Breeds are human contructs, that is, we categorize dogs as one breed or another based on pretty arbitrary stuff. They could just have easily considered those "subtypes" to be a different small sized breed.
They decided to lump the dogs into a certain number breeds; that doesn't mean there were only that many types or landraces of dogs. They just labeled the rest of the dogs they found as whichever one they most looked like.
This makes me wonder if there was possibly an 8th or 9th (or who knows how many other) breeds that were noted by the NIPPO people in the 30s and declared national treasures who didn't survive the ravages of WW2
If you are interested in population numbers, you can see yearly registration stats in the writeups for each breed on Shigeru's blog (same info also available on the forum, but you gotta dig for it).
(and my GSD / Husky mix has the 3 cutest ones ever!)
The NIPPO judge in Ohio last year said that (in NIPPO) spotted tongues were not a fault at this time, since most kai have them and they'd all be faulted, but pinker tongues were preferred and I should find Matsu a girlfriend with a pink(er) tongue since his is completely black.
12,000 years ago, Jomon people showed up with their dogs. 2,000 years agoA later immigration of people from mainland Asia called Yayoi brought new agricultural, weaving, ironworking, and bronzeworking...and their own dogs.
For the main Japanese islands, the Jomon and Yayoi people mixed and formed a new people the 'japanese-japanese' also sometimes called Yamato Japanese. Their dogs mixed as well. The Jomon who did not mix were pushed north and isolated on Hokkaido island, and became the people know as the Ainu. The Ainu hunted and fished more than farmed, and wore furs rather than weaved clothing. Their dogs didn't intermix much with the new dogs, but did some intermixing with some dogs from the North.
Additionally, there is a chain of small islands that includes the island of Okinawa that runs between Taiwan and the southern tip of Japan called the Ryukyu islands which were also populated by the Jomon (and their dogs). Like the Ainu in Hokkaido, they didn't mix with the Yayoi and stayed their own people (although from time to time over the last 1000 years Japanese rulers have conquered the islands and japanese-japanese have lived there) These dogs were also not influenced much by the Yayoi dogs, and show close genetic ties to the dogs on Hokkaido Island...but also had some intermixing with some other dog populations, probably pacific islander.
Time progressed and the Japanese people went through various cultural and government phases roughly covered as Ancient, Classical (power resided in the Imperial court), Feudal (clans lead by warlords/Daimyos had much power, emperor was a figurehead only, 'age of samurai', exactly who was ruling changed as military power of the big families fluxuated) running up to the Edo period which ran from 1600 to 1868.
Edo period was the period of Shoguns, strict class hierarchy, and an isolationist policy.
During the Edo period most Japanese were rice farmers and had no need for dogs. In the Edo period with it's class stratification, there was also very little moving around by the lowest tiers of people. Regional dialects sprouted up. The people living away from the cities and farmlands were quite isolated and they too had regional dialects develope, as well as regional variants of the basic medium sized Japanese dog which was used for hunting.
Edo period and isolationism ends, and the Empire of Japan is formed and rushes to modernize. Western influence is high, many western dogs and western styles of hunting are introduced. There is much mixing with local dogs. Except in the most isolated corners, this intermixing 'dissolves' the native breeds. It has been said that by 1920 in the cities the native dogs were totally gone, replaced by western dogs or heavy western mixes.
In the late 1920s, NIPPO is formed to codify the native Japanese Dog.
All native Japanese dogs are viewed as being the same 'breed' or 'type' and have the same standard, with some variation due to size.
All native Japanese dogs were bred for one roll: hunting.
Native dogs of sufficient purity are ONLY being found in the isolated mountain regions.
Findings:
One Japanese Breed, consisting of 3 size varieties. Within each size variety, there are regional sub-types.
The small ones, called Shiba Inu to cover many various regional subtypes, as a large group are recognized as a national monument.
the single large subtype (that not too long ago would have been just another medium sized sub-type, but was bred up in size for dog-fighting purposes ) the Akita, was recognized as a national monument.
Of the MANY medium sized sub-types, 5 were recognized as national monuments. (Kishu, Kai Ken, Shikoku, Hokkaido, Koshi-no-uni)
It is unknown why the various other medium size local sub-types were not individually recognized, but I speculate it relates to quality, purity, number of animals, and distinctiveness.
It is unknown why the small type were recognized as national monuments as a group rather than having the clearly identifiable regional sub-types is unknown, but I speculate it relates to a relative low number of small hunting dogs, as well as the fact that some regional small dog variants were actually not that much smaller than the medium type. However, it appeared there was an effort to mark distinct regional sub-types for the small variety as was done for the medium variety, but WW2 happened.
WW2 happened and the dog population was decimated.
Of the 5 medium sized version, the regional sub-types recognized as national monuments, thanks to extreme isolation, 4 of the 5 made it through the war with enough numbers to continue one. One had so few numbers it faded away by 1970. An untold number of regional sub-types were lost. A handful of regional subtypes that were NOT recognized as national monuments hung on, but got very little recognition by NIPPO or the Japanese Kennel Club (which concentrated more on western breeds) and by now may have faded into oblivion or been absorbed by the 'national monument' subtypes.
Of the small hunting dog, none of the regional sub-types had enough numbers to be viable as distinct entities, so much crossing was done and the modern Shiba Inu is a conglomeration of the earlier distinct Shiba types.
The single large version, the Akita, survived.
Each size version broken down into regional sub-types
Small Version Japanese Dog (given the name Shiba Inu and recognized collectively as a national monument) regional sub-types that were blended together to create the current Shiba Inu
-the San'in: (currently "Shimane & Tottori" prefectures) actually more medium-small than small,
-the Mino:(current "Gifu" prefecture) very similar to the modern Shiba, but had a sickle tail.
-Shinshu Shiba: (current "Nagano" prefecture) - very similar to modern Shiba, but had round eyes and a black mask
These three exist to an extent as 'strains' in the Shiba bloodline. In some of the areas where these sub-types were found, there is effort to keep these subtypes pure (San'in especially), but with limited numbers this is proving very difficult.
Small Version Regional sub-types that either had faded away prior to WW2 or didn't make it through WW2 with enough numbers and exposure to be used in rebuilding the Neo-Shiba. Some may exist today, but with very little formal recognition.
-Kawakami - mixed info here, MAY have been used to rebuild the Neo-Shiba
-Kimawa - foundation type of the Shinshu sub-type
-Jukkoku S
-Kiso Shiba
-Sekishuken
-Inabaken
-Tateyamaken
-Fukushima
-Niigata
-Gumma
-Yamanashi
-Nagano (probably alternate name for ShinShu Shiba)
-Gifu (probably alternate name for Mino Shiba)
-Hozonkai
Medium version Regional sub-types that either faded away prior to WW2, or didn't make it through WW2, or were sub-summed into the 4 sub-types specifically named as a national monument, or exist in small numbers yet today but with very little formal recognition
-Sekishu - one of the foundation types that formed the San-in
-Imba - one of the foundation types that formed the San-in
-Shinshu
-Mikawa - found both on Shikoku island and Mikawa province, may have been subsumed into the Shikoku
-Higo Rou Ken - dubious claim made that it is part Japanese Wolf.
-Karafuto - probably subsumed by the Hokkaido, or may have been an alternate name.
-Koshi-no-inu - Recognized as a national monument prior to WW2, but survived with so few numbers that it faded away in the 1970s
Note, the Shikoku is a Regional Subtype of the Medium Variety of Japanese dog, but for a while there was an effort to have 3 different 'lines' based on some regional variation within the Shikoku, basically regional sub-sub-types
-Awa,
-Hongawa
-Hata
These regional subtypes all fall under the broad description of the Japanese Dog as originally penned by NIPPO, but are viewed as distinct enough to to temperment and morphological differences.
Exactly what these differences are that set apart the Kai Ken, Shikoku, Kishu, and Hokkaido is what I am working on understanding. You guys have been helpful as now I known some (Kai smallest, differences between ear size and tip shape, etc)
@Wrylybrindle Shelby's tongue has some serious spots now, too! What's strange is that she has more on the underside. I thought tongue spots went all the way through.
Here's the cover to a report that triggered the Jindo's designation:
if it says not found look for the space in the url and fix it.. some reason that forum sometimes put a space in urls..
http://www.dogster.com/forums/shiba_inu/thread/663684
Can't really add too much more then what others have said already.