Nihonken Invitational - November 2nd 2014 Claremont California Trophy Sponsors Sheet Posted 8/18/14



  • crap, now I gotta get going registering my Shikoku in UKC :P

  • I might have to reduce the number of dogs I bring and fly. Car rental and fuel is looking to be too expensive. It is looking to be cheaper to fly with Kuma and Ritsu.
  • The corrected listing should be up any day now. I'm still waiting on the quote and samples from the ribbon lady before offering awards out. For those of you that want to show but do not want to be registered UKC, you can do so by putting in for a temp listing on the UKC website.

    The one big * on the TL numbers is for the Japanese Akita. UKC now requires all JA to provide pedigree for a TL number. TL cost $20 and single reg is $35 so its up to you.

  • @sjp051993 You're coming to Cali? Oh shoot! Now I have to go!!! I'll bring Mika and Koda.
  • @sjp051993 Do you want to handle your nephew in the altered class?
  • The plan is for me to come out to cali for the show. Most likely for just the weekend. I would be more than happy to show Koda :)
  • Tara you have to come... if you don't I'll add you to the show committee.
  • @sjp051993 I would be honored if you did. It would be great to have Koda work with you. He will love you so much.

    @*JackBurton* ha ha ha. No show committee!!! I will be there though. I promise.
  • edited April 2014
    So is this a UKC show? I don't register any of my NK with UKC...
  • It is UKC.
  • It's UKC, but you can get a TL number right (if you're not registering your dog UKC)...but then if you win anything, will that show up as whatever registration your dog has with the title or will it show UKC?

    I was going to look into it, but I figure people here have plenty of that knowledge :)
  • Any points earned would stay with the dogs TL number. You cannot receive a title on your dog until you have a permanent registration number. If anyone with a kka Kai is interested in getting full UKC registration, please message me. It can be done, just a certain person made it a little difficult since it did not benefit them. I have successfully done it though. With a UKC registration you can also enter UKC performance events beside conformation.
  • i wouldn't be interested in getting a full UKC registration, i just thought it might be fun to see what it's like in the ring once (i wish NIPPO was closer!)...i just didn't know what happens when you have a TL if you win...sounds like nothing really? which is totally fine by me, considering UKC probably has different standards on conformation for Kai anywho..

    It may just be easier to be a bystander and get to meet all of you! :)
  • The UKC standard truthfully is jacked up. A well structured Kai does very well in UKC even if it does not match the UKC standard. Ritsu does not fit the UKC standard and the judges that saw him LOVED him. Most judges do not see enough to know the standard that well. I have been educating a lot of Midwest judges on what is incorrect with the UKC standard. You would not pick up enough points in the 2 shows to earn a title. Anyone who would like to try showing just to see what it is like, I would be more than happy to help you out.
  • One thing that I've always thought of as a positive about the UKC judging, despite the divergent standards, is that many of the judges do know sound movement and can give feedback about that aspect. I know one of the judges selected for the NK Invitational is a known movement judge, and the other I suspect is a movement + "Can this dog do its job?" judge.

    For type, I would prioritize the feedback from AKIHO, NIPPO, or KKA judges.

    Nothing wrong, IMO, in getting feedback from multiple sources if you know how much weight to put into each kind of feedback. Even with Japanese judges within the same org, you place their feedback into context. ie. Have their judging changed in response to a dog that was placed controversally?

    But besides thinking about what a person can get out of the UKC judging at the show, the reverse is going to be happening. What can you give to the UKC judges? There are some strong-minded judges who really do want to judge a breed correctly and they're not just going to follow what another judge is placing or producing.

  • Having Kais in a UKC show brings up some breed politics I'm sure for a lot of us.

    I look at it this way. This is an AKIHO sponsored show. Just like us Kai owners would like to control our own breed club, for AKIHO the only way to do this was to join UKC since AKC will not recognize the JA as a separate breed. Kudos to AKIHO for taking the bull by the horns and creating their authentic breed place within the structure of UKC. I'm happy to support their efforts and triumphs by putting Koda (a UKC Kai) in the show.

    I have been thinking about Mika's place in all of this as a KKA dog. I could get her a temp number and show her. On one hand, I would be supporting the fascist nature of the Kai UKC breed club owner, on the other if she kicked the butts of the UKC dogs, it would be a little victory for us KKA owners who have all heard from the UKC Kai leader that our dogs are not the "right type", their legs are too short, bodies too long, and yeah they tend to be fat don't you know!

    For now, I will support and attend this event as a UKC dog owner, since I do proudly own Koda and love him very much regardless of all of the politics.

    I will however be bringing my KKA dog if anyone would like to meet her. She will be happy to show off for all of you.
  • edited April 2014
    It has been said that the Kai standard is messed up, but a verbal description can only go so far to paint a picture of a dog. It is difficult for anyone who has never seen a Nihon Ken to draw a picture of one from the standard alone, and it probably will not look like the breed in question. The standard must be accompanied by real live dogs for the judges to learn to recognize breed type. Otherwise its like trying to describe a color to a blind person.

    The more judges you show a KKA Kai to, the more they are going to expect that a correct Kai looks like the KKA ones and not those belonging to "a certain person." Breed exposure and education is important. Not showing, not registering accomplishes nothing. It sets back the KKA Kai and it gives a clear playing field for the "other" Kai to sweep the points and titles.

    There are some Japanese Akitas in UKC that are not a part of AKIHO/JACA. Many people believe that non-AKIHO Japanese Akitas are inferior or lack breed type. I've heard other members of our club disparage UKC because those non-AKIHO dogs still received points and even titles. They refuse to show in UKC because of it. Yet if we don't show the UKC judges our AKIHO Akitas, then the only dogs they're going to see are the other ones - so the judges are going to come to believe that is what correct breed type is. Instead, we should be out there showing our JAs against those dogs and beating them at their own game.

    EDIT: Registering with UKC doesn't support the Kai UKC breed club owner. The breed club gets nothing by you registering your dogs. All you would be doing is adding more competition. If anything it hurts them, especially if you can get more KKA Kai registered and being shown than that single person can do on their own. Flood them out.

    EDIT x2: Standards can be changed. I understand its not easy and there's politics involved. But changing the UKC standard requires, at a minimum, being a part of UKC. Joining UKC doesn't guarantee you'll be able to fix the standard, but not joining it guarantees you wont be able to.
  • Thanks, @poeticdragon for putting into words what I wanted to say. It's hard to write it all out on my phone from work. In just one weekend I opened the eyes of 5 UKC judges on correct structure of a Kai. I had 3 dogs there. A full UKC North American bred dog, a kka dog and a hybrid of the 2. We had intelligent conversations about each dogs strengths and weaknesses. They understand quite clearly the politics and most judges don't like it. They have no problem putting one of my dogs up over a breeder judge's dogs. They are all very excited to see more of Ritsu in the ring in the future and hope to see more kka dogs as well.
  • edited April 2014
    All interesting and valid points...I was only just thinking it would be fun to see what it's like, if it brings up too much politics I won't do it, not looking to stir the pot by any means...again, the most important part is i get to see everyone, so if it means watching from the sidelines i'll be just as happy. i do think it's funny they think our kais tend to be fat as @tjbart17 was saying...kona and kimber are both petite little twigs lol :P
  • @mdokic Maybe Mika is chunky. I'm Italian and she loves her food. :-P

    I think we should all attend, and if you feel like you want to put your dogs in the show then that's great! That's what my post said. There are two sides to the story 1) yes it's a UKC show and our KKA dogs are not allowed to be registered with the UKC but 2) our KKA dogs could kick some bootie and show everyone who's number 1!!!!! :-) I'm very competitive. lol
  • I don't foresee there being any issues with politics. That pretty much seems to stay right here in Ohio and Michigan. There is no one outside of Ohio/michigan showing Kai's that I am aware of. I do enjoy showing UKC and like the other performance events they offer. I just don't like how UKC handled the KKA acceptance. Acceptance of the KKA pedigree was turned down by what te UKC considers to be the parent breed club. Last I heard that breed club had 3 members. There is a work around to it all. Brad put a bunch of work into the first step of that prices which is AKC/FSS. I put in the work of getting the AKC pedigree accepted by UKC. So Michelle, if you would like to try the show ring out for 1 time just to be able to experience it, go ahead and get a TL number. You can do that with a kka pedigree. I would love for these judges to see several kka Kai in the ring. Word of better quality dogs travels fast amoung the judges.
  • I think my post was taken way out of context. I DO SUPPORT this show wholeheartedly! I hope ALL the Kai owners do.

    @PoeticDragon's response to my post took everything way out of context. It was meant to be a positive thing, with a little joke inside. Please let's not go down a negative road with this. I really want everyone to support and have fun this weekend.

    I'm looking forward to finally meeting so many people that I've wanted to over the past 5-6 years. And @sjp051993 get's to finally meet Koda!!! I'm really excited, overjoyed that Mika will also meet her daddy again.

    It's about time we had a West Coast show!!!
  • LOL @tjbart17 about the italian comment...i love you guys. :P and the competitiveness. you're awesome haha.

    @sjp051993 thanks for all the background and info...i'll definitely think about it. :)
  • If you have any more questions, you know how to get ahold of me. Again above all else, participation in the show supports JACA.
  • Will do Stacey!! :D
  • aykayk
    edited April 2014
    I think it'll be neat to see Ritsu placed in the UKC Top Ten Rankings. For that to happen though, he'll need to beat an intact Kai.

    Any takers? ;-)
  • Not showing, not registering accomplishes nothing.
    This is why - while I don't show- I registered my KKA kais AKC/FSS, why I made their CGC and CGCA's "titles" (why I bothered to CGCA Juno at all actually- I know she's a super dog, title or no- but somewhere, if one was researching kai temperament they could find that Yamabushi no Momiji Juno CGCA, a KKA/AKC/fss kai ken, passed an advanced public behavior title test) and why I posted all Matsu's OFA results publicly at OFA- I want it on record that KKA kais are GREAT: they are healthy, sound dogs of good temperament who can do their work (we hunt, track and hike) and be great companions and citizens.

    If I have the chance, I will run Matsu at barn hunt again (he made a splash and won his group at the Fun Match last year, and a lot of dog-people enjoyed meeting him and Juno and asked us great questions) or try lure coursing, but I know it is not my role to do lots of dog sports, or show. I just don't live near that stuff. Sarah will run Rajah in dog sports, Stacey will show her kais and actually get the strains mixed, Brad will (indeed has) improved diversity with quality dogs. Brad doesn't have to show or do events, but the owners he places dogs with will. It's like in hockey- one of us is the goalie, the center, the left wing, the right wing, the defensemen- we don't all do the same job, but we do our part for the KKA Kai as we are able.

    I hope that by promoting Matsu and being public about his health, character and achievements that he will be helpful in breeding great kai in the future. But this involves coordination with bitch owners and logistics and since I am not right there in the midwest I am not sure how effective that will be. Maybe as the kai spread out good females will be easier to get to work with. (If not, then I hope someday to add a female and focus on breeding away from kai-startle and concentrate the features of curious, rugged, outdoorsman's hiking/birdy kai.)

    I think it is not for all of us to do everything that can be done with each dog- but it is for each of us to do what we are able to do. I say take the show as a fun thing to do with a weekend, see friends, try showing, and dont feel you need to commit to showing or to UKC. That's kind of how I took NIPPO Classic- tho now I feel a little competitive like I want to go again and show Matsu as an adult next year. I'm completely biased, but I think he's a great looking, very well exercised male with some solid character attributes. :)
  • @ayk @mdokic Ooh take the challenge!!! Show Kimby. She's adorable.
  • Ritsu will be in the top ten there is no doubt about that. He has shown me he enjoys being in the ring with me. That is what really makes it fun, when the dog enjoys it. That is why I still show kuma with all the shiba politics, because he loves doing it.
  • LOL! Awe, no challenge, it would be fun for them to be in the ring's just the way Kimber focuses on me and prances when we're together, I have a feeling she would enjoy it too. Are you allowed to hold a treat in your hand btw?? Sorry if that's a stupid question...both Kimber and Kona are so food driven it makes everything easier :P

    Kona, it's debatable...she loves agility, and with me only (poor Nate lol), so she may or may not like it. But she sure gets that derpy smile when she looks at me during agility "oh OK! go throught the tunnel...WATCH ME!!" gets to the end and sits on the table "treat? did i do good? what's next, ok yay jump that thing!" I think the physical and mental challenge aspect of agility is what she likes though, which is why with her i wonder if she would really enjoy a show.
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