Herding? Really?

edited March 2011 in General
The Wikipedia article on the Kishu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kishu) says that Kishu can be used for herding. Also, the shiba article on the Wisdom Panel website (DNA testing) says that shiba were used for herding (http://www.wisdompanel.com/breedinfo/small/shibainu.html).



  • Well wikipedia can have some off information on things, I've seen a few incorrect pages on there. I don't have a Kishu so I can't say for sure though.
    Maybe Shibas were used to herd like, ducks? I don't really see that happening with most Shibas though, I think they'd rather eat them.
  • Yeah herding wild hogs. I saw that too awhile back and can't see a kishu herding live stock. I guess if some one has a really responsive dog that won't blow you off than maybe it might work. My dogs would never be able to do it.
  • LoL Tetsu would be good at herding small livestock into his stomach.

    I'm wondering if maybe someone saw a video of a Kishu baying, maybe even one of those training session video with the fencing and stuff, and they thought the boar was being herded and not hunted. Some people can really misinterpret things especially if they don't know the back story or that such a thinking (hunting with dogs) existed.

  • edited March 2011
    "Tetsu would be good at herding small livestock into his stomach." <<-- LMAO

  • Yeah, I figured it was misinformation, but I just had to check!
  • LMAO @ Beth!

    Yeah, I am not sure I could ever see either of my two herding anything that would remain alive afterwards. They do however, do a good job of herding the neighbor kitties from one side of the yard to the other (outside of the fence).
  • "Tetsu would be good at herding small livestock into his stomach" - BWAHAHAHAH!!! ROFL!

    You can't always believe books/articles. In one of my dog encyclodepias they say the shiba can be grey and brindle (on top of 3 types of sesame, red and white)!! -.-' DUH!
  • Shiba are obviously not a true herding dog, but I know Shiba will stalk and wait, and stalk and wait like a border collie. I see this pattern frequently towards other dogs, and it's hilarious when one of mine does it to an Aussie or BC at the park, but it always quickly ends in a pounce, retreat, and bay to hold, where a BC would continue stalking and waiting under extreme distraction.

    I don't see them driving an animal at all with any purpose, and certainly not under direction. They will go for a kill if the animal is small enough, and mine have done this with quail and chickens who flew the coop. I think with real herders, the stalking pattern is extremely developed and prolonged, without the "going for the kill" part. I think herding would be impossible for any NK.
  • I think the term "herding" is a rather encompassing term. Under the label of "herding" falls sheep herding (think BC), cow herding (ACD), bull baiting (CC), bark-and-hold type behavior (FSM or AB), and droving (FSM and Kelpie). I'm sure there are others.

    Point is, there are a lot of breeds with "herding" mentioned in their description who do not preform typical herding-dog work.

    Like the Cane Corso, they are said to have helped move bull from the bullpen to the butcher's slaughter house and then held them for the butcher to slaughter. That's a form of herding and baiting, perhaps a Kishu-like dog could preform a similar task (with pig)?

    In the LGD community, it's a common argument. LGD are not herding dogs, but they do herd. LGD enthusiasts get kinda pissy if you say their dogs herd - they don't herd they guard. But then what is this?

    Those are "Tobet" dogs, basically Central Asian Ovcharka from Kazakhstan. They are LGD, not herders.

    You remember this video?

    If you saw an ACD puppy do that exact behavior, wouldn't you call it "herding"?

    After all, herding is simply an altered predatory sequence. At some point it had to have shown up naturally in (hunting) dogs, which kinda implies any dog has the potential to be a herder. right? And a dog with a full predatory pattern would be more likely to display the behavior than a dog with very litter predatory pattern...

    oh, but wait, LGD don't have "prey drive" (and therefore lack intact predatory patterns) and yet I just posted videos with LGD herding (which is altered predatory behavior). See, there is always a gray area.

    Like I wrote in the other thread, I'm no expert. LOL

  • I like the idea of the Shibas herding animals into their stomachs! Certainly mine are like that! And like Lindsay, I've often observed the stalk and wait pattern in my Shibas. However, it usually ends in the death of the creature being stalked!

    I saw Oskar do it just the other day, too (though his pounce is rather dramatic given his size). He was after my friend's caged parrot. What was scariest was how patiently he waited til the parrot was down near the bottom of the cage, and then he bit only at her feet (avoiding her beak). Luckily I was there and intervened, or the parrot--an African Grey with more bravery than sense--would have been missing some toes. (He's started all this with a creeping into the kitchen, then freezing in place, then more stalking, and we were laughing at how silly he looked, instead of worrying that he might actually do some damage. Lesson learned--Oskar's not that dumb afterall, and the humans need to pay a lot more attention to the NKs and the caged birds).
  • Well, all the drives are in degrees. I suppose a really dedicated person with a particularly biddable shiba could accomplish something that might be called herding.
  • edited September 2011
    I said a while back: "I don't see them (Shiba) driving an animal at all with any purpose, and certainly not under direction...I think herding would be impossible for any NK."

    Foot in mouth, I seriously take it all back. A friend and I took 5 Shibas representing 2 seperate lines, and my CO, to a herding test today. 1 of the lines is the "softer" temperament that has produced some outstanding and very agreable dogs that are very nice to live with. The other has produced very edgy and drivey dogs who have a strong prey drive and strong desire to work.

    Two of the dogs from the "sharper" line with a common sire/grand sire, did really well actually and took to it right away. I'm pleased, since this was the most feasable alternative to testing them on pigs. Now, the sheep were enormous, bigger than the CO, but experienced and not dog sour so it was actually really safe for the dogs to do this.

    I got video and will upload it to a seperate thread later, but this was really fun and the CO and Shibas were invited back. An interesting thing, that the two Shibas who did the best, are a related male and female pair and the herdsman actually suggested they start working them together as a pair. So they did, and they did better, and they bayed the sheep and brought them to us. I mean, it took very little stretch to see how a hunter in Japan could have hunted a deer or hog with a good working pair of dogs. This is probably the closest I will ever come to that, so it was cool.

    It was also super hilarious to watch a 19 pound Shiba bitch with that much chutzpah steering around some 200lb sheep like she was born to do it.



    Farrah stalking

    Farrah cutting the sheep off

    Farrah holding the sheep

    Farrah, the eye

    Farrah, driving the sheep

    Koji and Farrah working together

    Farrah and Koji working together

    I like this bitch so well :)
  • That is so awesome Lindsay, I can't wait to see the video:)
  • I will tomorrow, I can't get Youtube on this station.
  • Lindsay, where the shibas nippy at the sheep at all, or did they just have more fun chasing than biting? Also, how did Grym do, and how did the less drive shibas react to the sheep?
  • Farrah was most mouthy, and she was doing what appeared to be heeling nips on their hocks, which the herdsman encouraged. She made a few air bites to their faces at times also if they tried moving where she didn't want. When she drove the sheep back in to their pen, she took some pot shots and jumped up to grab some flank wool to drive that point home to them (it seemed).

    Beebe and Maluko were uninterested in taking the sheep on by themselves (ignored), so we had to get in the pen and encourage them to work. Ike wanted to play and did some play bows, but the sheep were kinda boring to him.

    I have some excellent vids of Grym, he was freaking intense, and LGD types can definately herd. I'll be interested to hear what Brad has to say about his style (droving, bark and hold, etc).
  • edited September 2011
    Grym part 1

    Part 2

  • "have some excellent vids of Grym, he was freaking intense, and LGD types can definately herd."

    That kind of brings up a thought I was having. If a herd/flock was protected by a LGD, how would/should the LGD react when the owner uses a herding dog to move the herd/flock? Or are the two not mixed together, that you can only have one or the other or have a LGD that can multitask? I know that some LGD worked with small yappy dogs that alerted to threats, but those dogs didn't affect the flock like a herding dog would. @brada1878

    LoL, nice to hear that Farrah was so assertive with the sheep, maybe she was trying to dominate them :P Funny that Ike did play bows, I'd imagine that Tikaani would be the same way at first.
  • @Calia

    Do these videos show up for you?
  • @lindsayt - Nope, no vids:(
  • Hmm, Sandra made them private. I will have to post the links for now:

    Grym part 1

    Grym part 2
  • How about now?
  • edited September 2011
    Farrah part 1

    Part 2

    Part 3

    Part 4
  • Yep, can see the videos:)

    I find it funny how the sheep stuck to the guy with Grym in the ring. And is it just me, or did they give Farrah bigger sheep than Grym
  • He got the fast livelier sheep which happened to be smaller apparently. Her sheep were boring and slow and big. Ike wanted something like what G got.
  • LoL, now you make me want to try this with my pups...Too bad all these herding places by me only allow herding breeds since the only reason to herd sheep here is for trials.
  • That looks like fun! Time to add another use for the NK.
  • I never thought the Shibas will actually herd, but I am very glad I tried this with my two dogs. It was so great to have Lindsay and her pack to go with us. That triples the fun!

    I thought Koji would either be confused or go crazy with the sheep, but he surprised me by showing interests in the sheep and not getting overly excited with them. Farrah did super well and took to it right away. The two are related, so the genes definitely play a big role in this.

    My mellow girl Maluko was not interested in chasing sheep, but she was a good solider following her people who was told to act all crazy and wanting to kill the sheep to get the dogs excited. Maluko stayed calm and very zen-like and followed me as I growled, made funny noises and pushed the sheep really hard to get her worked up.... Did not work with her and I was breathless trying to wrestle with the sheep!

    I really look forward to our next visit and hope Koji can learn from his aunt Farrah. :)
  • That was awesome! I love Farrah!

    That seems like a great experience. :)
  • Here's Koji:

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