Where are they going from here?

Nikkoth

I was having a discussion with one of my dogs breeder and I wanted to pose it here.
We were discussing the direction so many of the shibas in America are going. So many are being breed to be champions before they ever hit a year old. The look like little adults, not puppies. The develop into over done dogs. Everything becomes out of proportion when they get older. Also so many breeders these days are finishing their dogs and selling them off and never looking back, rarely considering how they turn out at a much older age. Also more and more a developing neurological issues and worsening behavior issues.
Is anyone else seeing this trend in the breed? What about in the Akita?
Where do you think the breeds will be in 5, 10, and 50 years? What about the other Japanese breeds being introduced into the US?

tobyshiba

I think eventually they'll all have to be bred back to Japanese lines and rethink the standard. Because as Americans, we overbreed dogs and usually don't care about quality. I mean, as long as they win as a puppy, who cares what they look like as an adult. This is already done to the Shiba and sadly it will eventually happen to the other Japanese dogs, as well as they become more common in the states ( which is why most of them should be kept amongst ourselves ). Once they get out and flourish, you know that the Japanese standard will no longer apply, and people will try to americanize all of the breeds and pretty much ruin them.

Honestly, backyard breeders and breeders who breed for just the money should just stop breeding these dogs and ruining the lines. Theres a reason Shibas in my area have a bad rep. Poor breeding habits and the rest falls on owners who don't socialize at a very early age and get them used to everything they possibly can.

... but yeah, I pretty much went off topic there. Sorry about that. nn; I'm sure I got my point across.

dlroberts

Being a relatively new dog owner, I'm still learning a lot about breeding considerations and how the whole industry works. I must say, even just six months ago, I was essentially ignorant to the magnitude and importance of breeding considerations. And I think ignorance is exactly the issue. I can't speak for other countries or even other parts of the US, but I can speak for my interactions with dog owners in my neighborhood and around the Atlanta area. What I have learned is that the issue primarily comes down to ignorant dog owners. I know this because, like I said, I was one of them (although I still have tons to learn, I wouldn't quite call myself ignorant anymore).


Ignorant dog owners perpetuate a culture of irresponsible and ignorant breeding practices. This, unfortunately, is further exacerbated by economic considerations. The pet industry is HUGE. From health care, to insurance, to toys, to food, to activities, to gear, and beyond, economic pressures retard the efforts of well educated responsible dog owners and breeders from making any real progress. From a purely economic perspective, I can't blame the breeders who recklessly strive to achieve the goals you are talking about without regard for the longer term effects on the breed. And perhaps this too is a core issue: the AKC has turned even responsible breeding culture into a culture with economic pressures---albeit not monetary. In striving to create a better "product", improve their "reputation" in the breeding community, and gain "currency" (points) for their efforts, breeders will conform to the pressures the AKC's procedures have resulted in.


So where do I see our beloved breeds being in 10, 20, or 50 years? The short answer is I don't really know. One somewhat worrisome prospect is that we'll have a further stratified dog population. We'll have the poor quality, unhealthy, standard-missing dogs that backyard breeders and puppymills produce today; we'll have the apparently high quality "throw away" dogs that fit the standard early in life and subsequently end up in poor health or condition; and we'll have the responsible few that stick to their guns and turn out consistently high quality dogs that may not get them as much AKC "profit" as the second group of dogs, but will hopefully perpetuate the breeds in small way. Another even more worrisome prospect is that the few dedicated hobbyists who do breed to further the breed in the long run will run out of high quality breeding stock to work with. My intuition says that this is probably the most likely outcome. It is not frequently talked about, but the selective breeding that humans do with dogs is a genetic nightmare from an evolutionary perspective. Without regard for evolutionary pressures, we create offspring that have many meaningless characteristics we desire and in the process introduce many terrible characteristics like tendencies toward health or behavioral issues. We are, in effect, playing god to these animals but regularly don't have their best interests in mind. Sadly, the last outcome that I see which is by far the best but probably by far the least likely, is that activists and scientists will step in and prove that our genetics experiments are not in the best interest of anybody, dog or human---the culture will change and we will start breeding with the genetic ammunition in hand that will enable us to truly preserve the best qualities of our canine friends for their sake and not ours.

BradA1878

I just want to point out that in Japan breeders are just as irresponsible and over breed at the same level as America.

Where America goes wrong is w/ the AKC not following the standards of the FCI. If the Kennel Clubs would all follow one standard then there would be less descripancies in the bloodlines.

It is up to the breeders tho to follow the standards and the AKC / Kennel Clubs to set them, showing dogs and being awarded for showing is supposed to be an organic quality control system.

As for where the Shiba is going, I have no idea - to be honest I don't follow Shiba Inu as closely as the other breeds but the time I have spent on this forum leads me to believe they are being bred to be "accessory dogs", which is a shame.

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dlroberts

Just to clarify, I wasn't intentionally vilifying the AKC. I can see how that may have come across in my post. I was really just trying to point out how the system can be abused to yield undesirable results.

Leonberger

Unfortunately, the vast majority of breeders are not responsible as breeders. Some over breed, some just don't know the first thing about what they're doing, others tend to interpret the standards in their own way, to try and make their "mark" on the breed. Some of them shouldn't even be seen as breeders. Even among the ones that are responsible, sometimes a strange idea comes up and out of those some tend to stick and evolve. And turn into a fashion. That seems, for what I read here, what is happening to Shibas. Sadly, many breeds can complain about something similar, like the Rotts that got turned into massive chested "monsters" that can barely move, or GSD that got their hind quarters so sloped some of them barely have hips. Or the Bulldog, that got turned into an object that requires assistance to even reproduce.

That doesn't happen only in America, it happens all over the world. If anything and comparing American and FCI lines of some breeds, I would say that in America they get bred too much for the show, they tend to be bred for spectacular purposes. The Saint Bernard comes to mind. I've seen American type Saint Bernard that are very light, too light actually. But they move in a way that is more spectacular than the European lines, that are heavier and follow the original type.
There was a thread about how the ring is hurting the breeds, and that hits it right in the head. Some breeds are being completely ruined by the ring and fashion. Recovering those breeds takes time and hard work, some don't even make it back that much, look at the Dalmatian.

I don't know where it is going, but I doubt that in 40-50 years any of the breeds we like will be bred by today's standards. They will follow some trend that will probably ruin them or at least make a negative mark.

BradA1878

Well said Rui!

Dave - I wasn't directing my post at you, if that is what made you feel you need to clarify.

I agree 100% w/ Rui, I think trend and ignoring breed 'purpose' is what ruins breeds.

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dlroberts

Ditto, well said!