shiba lunges at me

I have had my shiba koda since it was eight weeks and he has been great he is house broken and does sit, stay, speak, roll over, crawl, shake and a couple other tricks on command all at 3 months. however when we are playing he bites pretty hard and when i scruff him and tell him no or yelp and get up and walk away he lunges at me and bites at me still. Its like he doesnt get the message. Also he plays very rough with other dogs even big ones he goes at their face and I have socialized him with all sorts of other dogs. He especially plays rough with my moms westie. They fight for hours and its playful but sometimes it turs into too much biting how do I get him to stop biting me and other dogs? I just want my moms dog and him to sit peacefully.
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Comments

  • edited November -1
    well, he is a shiba puppy, that will be difficult to get him to sit peacefully without really, really tiring him out with exercise.
    The biting a human thing can be twofold:
    1. you can acknowledge the behavior as bad and yelp as another dog would, that should stop him from biting you, as it would with other dogs, then you can use a positive reinforcement of his reaction (that he stopped biting). Scruffing him might be sending a rough play OK signal.. i'm not sure on the scruff thing though..
    2. by giving him a reaction to his action, he is getting attention from you, which shibas thrive from - good or bad attention, its all they really want. that might be making him more inclined to repeat the biting to get your attention.

    with other dogs, if they are older, and are well socialized, they should be correcting the pup if what he does crosses the line of appropriate behavior. He may just be playing rough, as shibas do. Just keep socializing, dogs carry their own means of communication with one another and he can only become a successful dog-dog communicator with extended socialization.
  • edited November -1
    You want a 3 month old Shiba to sit peacefully? You will have better luck finding a suitcase filled with 10 million dollars in your backyard.

    Shibas tend to be very rough when they play, it's very common in the breed. All of what you have mentioned is normal, although not always appropriate behavior, for a Shiba. Scruffing your Shiba isn't going to help teach him anything. If the biting gets to be to much when you play, try replacing your hand with a toy that it is ok for him to bite on. If he goes for your hand, just keep sticking the toy in his face. If that doesn't work you could try rubbing mouth wash on your hands before playing as dogs don't like the taste. Yelping is a good thing to do, and so is walking away. If he lunges a bit when you walk away try to redirect him into a sit.

    Shibas do not learn well from physical correction. I would suggest you enroll in a Puppy Socialization class, followed by obedience classes. Only sign up at places that have positive reinforcement training. Your trainers will be able to help you teach your Shiba how to properly play with other dogs and with people. The classes are worth every penny they may cost you.
  • edited November -1
    Well we are taking him to classes soon but this only happens in our home he doesnt do it any where else really so I dont know if they will be able to witness this behavior. Also when I ignore him he will start chewing on the couch or something he knows hes not supose to. Ive just never seen a puppy lunge at someone or even other dogs. I know they are very rough when they play ive read books and have done my research on them. Ive heard by replacing your hand with a toy is bad becuase you are giving them attention and its like rewarding them with something good after biting me. I also never use my hands as a play toy I always have ropes or balls or a chew toy for him he just goes after the hand. The mouth wash idea is a good one though ill have to try that. Thanks for your help guys.
  • edited November -1
    The advice so far is great so I am not going to add much.

    Yeah the scuff thing doesn't do much other than give them the idea to push back when the opportunity strikes . At three months puppies are testing and taking the wide world in through their mouths. Go to a puppy class so he has others of his own age to play with. I would give a time out using a crate if he gets too out of control with you or the westies. As Brandon suggested divert the "bitie bites" with a toy stuffed in his mouth or face so he knows to play bite with that instead of your hand etc. Eventually he will learn to calm down when you ask. No puppy or dog hould be allowed to overly harass another. 10 or 15 minutes of monitored play at a time is about enough for young dogs. They have to learn to get their bodies in gear with their minds and that takes time to develop. Referee in the mean time.

    Snf
  • edited November -1
    Oh forgot to mention, at this point I would not worry about your angst of rewarding with the toy. He is not conscience of the biting as being a bad thing so it is better at this point to get a positive outcome with fetch or toy time together so he bonds. Later if it is still a problem then you would take the away the reward of playing with him. Right now you just want to redirect the behavior to a more positive activity.

    If he is chewing on chair legs etc. you may want to invest in "Bitter apple" or "phooey" that tastes bitter. It is sprayed on the object the dog wants to chew. Note, test on a paper towel some dogs like the weird taste and will lick up the stuff. All taste buds are not created the same. (LOL)

    Snf
  • edited November -1
    orange essence (that you get right out of an orange peel, squeezed) seems to really repel my dogs - if bitter apple spray doesn;t work.

    shibas are the cutest puppies because if they weren't, you would realize how horrible they actually are!
    when my tsuki was that young, we'd put her in her pen with chew toys if we couldn't monitor her, it saved much damage to the house, showed her what was appropriate to chew, and it was a bigger area than a crate. it forced us to really come up with an age appropriate exercise plan because she seemed to never run out of energy.. and we should have gotten stock in dog toys - she murdered way more than I could count trying to redirect her puppy teeth!

    Brandon's idea to redirect your pup when he goes to lunge into a sit is a really good idea, you can reward for a sit instead of punish for the lunge. Positive reinforcement is the only thing that really gets through to a shiba.
  • edited November -1
    thank you for your advice everyone my grandma hooked me up with that apple spray a while ago and i might use it eventually he just goes to different stuff to chew all the time. We also have the play pen set up for him going to his crate he actually loves his crate because i would give him his food in the crate and treats so he likes that.
  • edited November -1
    Last week somebody joined the board with a girl named Mochi, today I find out about a boy named Koda. I’ve a male named Mochi and a female named Koda. While it’s kinda weirding me out, it’s nice to know my dogs have non-evil twins out there in the world somewhere. ;0)

    Welcome to the board Bud, I concur with the advice you were given here. A three month old shiba is going to be mouthy, and a scruff shake is really just an invitation to more roughhousing. You’re going to have to teach bite subsidence and invest in a cheap pair of welding gloves in the interim. I’m sure you’ve done your research, but I really have to stress that conventional wisdom; even from well meaning and well informed “dog people”, doesn’t always apply to a pre-adolescent pseudo-dingo. You probably found this link already, but it is typically the first place I point folks:

    http://www.shibainus.ca/ (Home of the Misanthropic Shiba)

    Whatever you do, try not to get too discouraged. You’re doing great by exposing him to dogs, people, and formal training; socialization is huge and every effort you make now will be rewarded down the road in the years to come.
  • edited November -1
    Yea ive checked that out and I guess every dog is different he is a great dog other than that and yes he will probably grow out of this stage eventually. Do you guys have pics of your shibas? Here is a couple of mine
  • edited November -1
    at 8 weeks
  • edited November -1
    another
  • edited November -1
    here is one at 3 months
  • edited November -1
    3 months
  • edited November -1
    He is a good looking pup! If you search for "The Nemo Thread" you will find a lot of pictures of my Shiba, Nemo.
  • edited November -1
    How many shibas do you have man? How big are they? Koda is 12 lbs right now how big do you think he will get and when do they usually stop growing? i WANT HIM TO GET LIKE 30LBS ANY CHANCE FOR THAT?
  • edited November -1
    I have one Shiba, he has a lot of Shiba friends.

    He weighs in at about 25-27lbs. 30lbs is big for a Shiba, and over standard, however a lot of people have 30lb Shibas these days. Males should be around 20-22lbs, I think.
  • edited July 2008
    Bud - I have a thread called Jazz Spam and I think Dave's is Lucy and Joey Spam, there's one that is Ryu Spam as well.

    - Under the Choose a category to the left, you can select Photo/Video Shiba and that will pull a fair number of us shiba owners up.
  • edited November -1
    I know I was just curios as to what they looked like there are tons of pics i know i was just trying to put a face to the name on this discussion which is easier for me to keep track
  • edited November -1
    25lbs isnt bad they look a lot bigger with the winter coat too. When does that usually start comming in?
  • edited November -1
    that may vary for you - my Jazz appears to be one of those few shibas that doesn't blow coat (or at least hasn't in the 9mos I've had her). I believe Sept-Nov is around the norm for the fall blowing of coat.

    Here's a shot of my Jazz:


    Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

  • edited November -1
    The coming and going of Shiba coats tends to be different for each dog. I have a friend who bases his theory on the changing of the seasons, winter/summer solstice. Nemo is not a big shedder, he just recently blew his coat for the first time in a year. This winter was very cold and it got thicker than ever, he is still losing some of it. I have heard from a lot of people with older Shibas that sometimes the blowing becomes constant, much more than twice a year.

    Nemo:
    Dogs_-_Squirrel_Tail-0057-1
  • edited July 2008
    what might be easier for you to associate us to our dogs - you can click on our names in red, then it goes to our acct. info, and click 'discussions started' - you can find our dog spam!

    Size wise, I think my shibas fall into the standard, although compared to other shibas I have met, they (my dogs) seem so small! The females are 17lbs and 18.5 lbs while my male is creeping up on 20lbs. I think they go down like 1/2 lb or so when their coats are done blowing out - there is a LOT of hair that happens!! Tsuki blew her coat for the first time this past spring - when she turned a year old - even though we'd been furminating on a regular basis..

    Its hard to get a good shot of all 3 - this is the best so far!
    image
  • edited November -1
    I also was wondwering if you guys know anyone or have a shiba you can keep off leash and if you have any suggestions on training a shiba off leash? I am doing off leash training right now with koda (3 months old) and he is doing really good he follows me and ignores stuff but when someone walks by with a dog he would go towards them so i train him with a long lead like 20 ft incase he does take off i can grab it. Is there an age that the shibas instincts will be too much for them and they will get board with listening to me and just take off no matter what or will the training im doing stay with them?
  • edited November -1
    Mylie does the same thing and she's about the same age as your shiba. I've learned that if I jump back and scream "OUCH!" She immediately gets this sympathetic look on her face and will start licking wherever she had nipped me. I do this whether it hurts or not, and she seems to have gotten the idea. The problem is that your pup probably doesn't realize he's hurting you, it's all fun and play to him. Try giving him something to chew on when he bites, and stop playing with him. There have been a few times that Mylie has gotten me pretty good, and when she sees that I'm in a bit of pain, she'll whine, crawl on my lap and bury her face.
  • edited November -1
    I think the coat blowing cycle is based on individual genetics, health, food and hormones. I also heard that some dogs hold on to the full coat longer as a mature dog. Males holding on longer than females. I know when females are spayed etc they may go through a full shed.

    My cream looks almost bald during a full blow out. One can see the pink skin up through the remaining hairs. My red female stays in full coat almost year round. Both are fed and cared for in the same way. Our male rescue never seems to get the same thick lush coat as the girls, particularly his the pants and tail fullness.

    Snf
  • edited November -1
    As for your leash question, I have trained Mylie to walk beside me, never ever off in the distance. She can't be trusted off a leash, she's too curious and I don't want to risk having her run off. I've seen a few adult Shiba's that can't be trusted off a leash as well. When people start walking towards her, or she sees them, she's too scared to approach! So I never really had that issue.
  • edited July 2008
    A lot of people ask about off leash shiba success rates, I think I can safely say it just doesn't happen, even if they are extensively trained and it works - thats maybe 0.0000000000001% of the time, even then, there are still no guarantees. They just can't be trusted!
    I'm finding in rescue that there are more and more shibas that end up as strays in shelters - what I hear are "this one is a stray" (slipped collar and took off, or was unreliable off leash) or "I had a baby, don't have time, shiba doesn't like baby" - this happens far less than stray shiba.
  • edited November -1
    Ditto....Unreliable off leash. Even if you have a Shiba that is 75% reliable that is considered good. However, it only takes once and if you really love your dog it devastating if you lose one and never get it back. Not worth the risk

    Snf
  • edited November -1
    I'll be the third or fourth to say that Shibas belong ON-LEASH at all times when outside and not in a securely fenced yard. It is not worth risking your dogs life.

    If you are interested in doing off leash work with a dog, may I suggest getting a second dog that is more suited for off leash work.
  • edited November -1
    The only estimate I have is based on the fact that one of my classmates who got hers to do it reliably in the ring after about two years. If you’re going to do obedience training budget your time accordingly, until then I would consider the longe line to be your best friend’s best friend (as long as you are far from any roads). Anywhere near the street, don't chance it ever.
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