Which nihon ken is for me?
Hey guys! Hope all are doing well 
Not many people know this but the shiba puppy I was originally getting...I never got. From some helpful tips from the loving members on this forum we concluded that the breeder really wasn't that great, so even though it was hard, [ & it also meant losing a $200 deposit![:\](http://nihonken.org/forum/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
] I ended up not getting the puppy. I have decided now instead to take my time, spend tons & tons & tons more research, & to really think & plan ahead. I've also decided to hold off on getting the pup until I move into a new apartment [ mid-late 2009 ] so that I can start completely fresh.
So...which breed do I get? After discovering this forum...I discovered all the other nihon ken too! & I have to say I absolutely am in love with all of them.
Now, unfortunately, other than the Akita I have never really met any of the other Japanese breeds. So I'd really super appreciate it if you guys could give me a nudge in which breed you think would fit my lifestyle. [ also if there's any way I can ever meet these breeds. I've tried looking up local dogs shows, but to no avail! I live in Orlando, which seems to lack in all Japanese breeds If anyone lives any where in the state I'd gladly drive out to meet your dogs if you don't mind
! ]
As much as I would love to have an <b>Akita unfortunately they seem to be a seriously restricted breed down here, so they're really not an option. The Shiba seems great since they're so clean & I love their little foxy look & their independent nature. However, I am a big-dog lover. I think right now the Shikoku is my favorite breed of dog. I really love their primitive look, & the sesame coats...They are also a medium-sized dog, which is more of what I love. Kai Ken I love the brindle, the primitive head shape...
From what I have researched about all the Nihon Ken is that they are really not off-leash dogs. I understand & accept this, & I do not believe in walking a dog without a leash anyway. The only time my dog would be off leash is in the house or in a well-fenced dog park.
A little about me:
I do live in an apartment however any dog I get will be sufficiently walked at least 2-3 times a day in 30-45 minute intervals. [ I take these walks for myself anyways ] I would also love to participate in agility trials with my pup. The apartments I've looked at moving into are also a pretty decent size, 1-2 bedrooms at 800-1000square feet.
The dog would never be home alone for more then 4 maybe 5 hours a day [ & I only work / go to school 5 days out of the week ] I'm not a "party" person. I work short shifts at work & go to University Part-Time or Take online classes. I also do some graphic design work from home, & as such, unless it's the rare occasion I'm meeting friends, [ once every two weeks or so ] I am mostly at home.
There would be no other animals or humans in the house, though I wont let this stop me from socializing the pup well.
Oh, & I am not a cheap person. I intend to spend good money on a well-bred dog & on everything in order to give the dog a great life. [ food, toys, vet, etc. ]
I research, research, research. Right now I have read & own 5 books on raising puppies / dogs & tons of books on dogs in general. I wake up every morning at 9am to watch "It's Me or the Dog" so that when the time comes, I am prepared to raise a dog as ever.
I am absolutely, onehundred percent terrified of flying on planes. So, I'd prefer to be able to have the pup shipped / driven down here. I will personally drive anywhere to pick up the pup. [ however, I think it'd be less stressful for a pup to fly 3-4 hours, then to drive 12-24 hours ] BUT, as an absolute last resort, I will fly to pick up a pup personally. Even if it means having a heart attack
Well, that was much longer then I would have liked it to be. The reason I'm asking you guys what breed you think would be best is because after I really decide on a breed, I can actually start contacting breeders & really start getting super in-depth on the dog breed, reserving a pup, etc. Also, even though I love all the nihon ken, & would be happy with any of them, I'm not really sure which is the perfect "fit" for me. I don't want to get a dog that doesn't match my lifestyle. So PLEASE, please, I would really love all your opinions. As much research as I get on the breeds from the internet & books, nothing matches the experience & opinion of another human being. Please, even if it means telling me "You can't get a dog with your lifestyle," [ as much as it would completely break my heart ] I would really love some honest opinions.~
Not many people know this but the shiba puppy I was originally getting...I never got. From some helpful tips from the loving members on this forum we concluded that the breeder really wasn't that great, so even though it was hard, [ & it also meant losing a $200 deposit
] I ended up not getting the puppy. I have decided now instead to take my time, spend tons & tons & tons more research, & to really think & plan ahead. I've also decided to hold off on getting the pup until I move into a new apartment [ mid-late 2009 ] so that I can start completely fresh.So...which breed do I get? After discovering this forum...I discovered all the other nihon ken too! & I have to say I absolutely am in love with all of them.
Now, unfortunately, other than the Akita I have never really met any of the other Japanese breeds. So I'd really super appreciate it if you guys could give me a nudge in which breed you think would fit my lifestyle. [ also if there's any way I can ever meet these breeds. I've tried looking up local dogs shows, but to no avail! I live in Orlando, which seems to lack in all Japanese breeds If anyone lives any where in the state I'd gladly drive out to meet your dogs if you don't mind
! ]As much as I would love to have an <b>Akita unfortunately they seem to be a seriously restricted breed down here, so they're really not an option. The Shiba seems great since they're so clean & I love their little foxy look & their independent nature. However, I am a big-dog lover. I think right now the Shikoku is my favorite breed of dog. I really love their primitive look, & the sesame coats...They are also a medium-sized dog, which is more of what I love. Kai Ken I love the brindle, the primitive head shape...
From what I have researched about all the Nihon Ken is that they are really not off-leash dogs. I understand & accept this, & I do not believe in walking a dog without a leash anyway. The only time my dog would be off leash is in the house or in a well-fenced dog park.
A little about me:
I do live in an apartment however any dog I get will be sufficiently walked at least 2-3 times a day in 30-45 minute intervals. [ I take these walks for myself anyways ] I would also love to participate in agility trials with my pup. The apartments I've looked at moving into are also a pretty decent size, 1-2 bedrooms at 800-1000square feet.
The dog would never be home alone for more then 4 maybe 5 hours a day [ & I only work / go to school 5 days out of the week ] I'm not a "party" person. I work short shifts at work & go to University Part-Time or Take online classes. I also do some graphic design work from home, & as such, unless it's the rare occasion I'm meeting friends, [ once every two weeks or so ] I am mostly at home.
There would be no other animals or humans in the house, though I wont let this stop me from socializing the pup well.
Oh, & I am not a cheap person. I intend to spend good money on a well-bred dog & on everything in order to give the dog a great life. [ food, toys, vet, etc. ]
I research, research, research. Right now I have read & own 5 books on raising puppies / dogs & tons of books on dogs in general. I wake up every morning at 9am to watch "It's Me or the Dog" so that when the time comes, I am prepared to raise a dog as ever.
I am absolutely, onehundred percent terrified of flying on planes. So, I'd prefer to be able to have the pup shipped / driven down here. I will personally drive anywhere to pick up the pup. [ however, I think it'd be less stressful for a pup to fly 3-4 hours, then to drive 12-24 hours ] BUT, as an absolute last resort, I will fly to pick up a pup personally. Even if it means having a heart attack
Well, that was much longer then I would have liked it to be. The reason I'm asking you guys what breed you think would be best is because after I really decide on a breed, I can actually start contacting breeders & really start getting super in-depth on the dog breed, reserving a pup, etc. Also, even though I love all the nihon ken, & would be happy with any of them, I'm not really sure which is the perfect "fit" for me. I don't want to get a dog that doesn't match my lifestyle. So PLEASE, please, I would really love all your opinions. As much research as I get on the breeds from the internet & books, nothing matches the experience & opinion of another human being. Please, even if it means telling me "You can't get a dog with your lifestyle," [ as much as it would completely break my heart ] I would really love some honest opinions.
~
Comments
Wow they kept your deposit? Suckage.
An Akita would be great too, but if there are that many restrictions on them then I guess you have to pass on them.
I would stay away from a Kai, IMHO. They are kinda wild and would probably not do well in apartment life. Kona is really like a wild animal - but some other Kai owners may feel differently.
As for meeting some Nihon-Ken - you are always welcome to come and visit our pups, tho that would be a long drive. We will be driving to ATL in December and you could meet us if you wanted to drive up to GA... but we may only have Akita with us, so I dunno if that really helps.
Good luck!
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Rina, actually most of the apartments I've looked at [ about 4/5 ] will either allow any size dog [ so long as it's not a restricted breed, ie; Akita, Pit, Doberman, etc.
& yeah...I'm happy I didn't get the pup though. I've been monitoring the breeder's website really closely since then & I'm really disappointed in myself I didn't see the clear-cut signs of a poor breeder before then...I consider the $200 loss my punishment for rushing into things I guess.
Brada - You know though...I really really love Shikoku xD Just because, if anything, they're a slightly larger dog. I'm pretty steady with my walks [ If I'm not walking, I'm roller-blading ] so I think, for the most part, I'd be ok with keeping a walking routine... I definitely understand how important routine is for dogs, this is something I'll think about a little more
I didn't think the Kai would be a good fit either. Too much energy & I hear they're real barkers
It really is a shame on how many restrictions the akita has down here. It's got almost as bad a rep as a pit, which surprises me as I've never heard an akita attacking anything. [ all the ones I've met were real sweethearts
I have Akita, so I can only speak to them and they would do well in an apartment situation. They mellow and only play indoors in small spurts. But with the FL restrictions, they're out for you.
What about Hokka? I don't know much about their personality, but they are slightly larger than a shiba.
My shiba is a bit of an odd duck but is perfect for me. I previously had a siberian husky and wanted to get a dog that was smaller, but still had a big dog personality - I mos def got that in Jazz.
With your fear of flying it wo uld probably be easiest to drive around and meet Shiba breeders, since there are so many more of them. Although there are some good breeders that do ship now too, I guess it would depend on if you want to meet the breeder and the parents of the dog.
I think Brad that you might be right about the bloodlines because I think that Kuma (my Shikoku) would do fine in an aparmtment if he got frequent walks. He is actually really calm and quiet in the house. But he does have a lot of energy in his walks.
So if you narrow it down to the Shiba or Shikoku, you also might want to search past thread that discuss the differences. Shibas are definitely more independent and less willing to please than Shikokus. Shikokus are easier to train and seem to like obedience, they are very loyal to their owners. Mine is super lovey to all new people and not standoffish at all (some Shibas are). We say that he would knock down a burglar with kisses (although he does have an alarm bark at times!).
I personally find that the Shikoku fits my personality and lifestyle better because of them being more responsive to learning/obedience and loyal. But it is whatever suits what you like best. The 2 Shikoku breeders are Katja Weber (http://www.akashima.bc.ca/shikoku-article.htm) and Peggy Graham (www.shikokudog.com -- click link for ikon kennel). Talking to them personally may help you as they have owned both Shibas and Shikoku.
The biggest drawback I see for you is that her temperament (and Kais in general) is not suited to only walking on the leash. We have to make opportunities almost daily for her to be off-leash. We are fortunate to be near a large well-fenced off-leash park, there are several neighbors yards here on our block where she regularly is invited to play with local playmates off-leash, and we have a 160-acre farm where my husband and I take her frequently for long weekends (not too mention two elementary school boys at the end of the block who love to play with her, get licked by her, etc.). Like Brad, I would NOT recommend a Kai for apartment life and leash-walking only.
Hope that is helpful.
Take care and best of luck with your decision.
But even their energy and play style seems better suited for bigger dog play. We have a much better time in the big dog side of the dog park, it just seems more adequate for them. Plus I think Tsuki sorta prey-stalks this tiny teacup yorkie that we pass on walks...
What is the physical size difference (per breed standards) between shibas and shikokus? Maybe a few inches and 10lbs or so?
Miko's sister is in Florida. Her name is Kitsune I believe her owners user name is Magmagal (
Diana and Jonathan (humans), Allie (Norwegian Elkhound), Zara (gray cat) and - at long last! - Kitsune (Shikoku). They haven't posted in a while but they are Floridians.
LJ - Thanks so much for the info on the dog shows! I've definitely got to see if I can make it to one. I'd been trying to find out how to look up dog shows but whenever I went to the AKC website I felt lost. I really would love an Akita, the whole family here actually loves akitas. Whenever my sister & father see one on tv they have a mini-freak out. "OMG AKITAAAAAAA!" haha To be honest I hadn't looked at Hokkaido too much since, other then the one paragraph I've read on them in a book, I know nothing about them
Brandon - Thanks Brandon! I almost made a big mistake before, so now I want to be extra careful.
Edgewood - I'll see if I can get in contact with them & if they don't mind me meeting her xD I'm kind of worried about the Shiba's independance since I'd be a first time dog-owner. EVen though I'd go to a million obediance classess, I think it might be easier to start off with a dog that is slightly more trainable. haha & Thanks for the links, since they both have had both types of dogs, Ill definitely see if they can offer any advice for me.
Dave - Don't let your imagination get to you ;p
Baanton - Yeah, maybe I'll wait until I actually own a house to get a Kai, I'd hate to get a Kai & not be able to keep up with him & give him the proper exercise that he needs. Thnks
Jen - The book I have [ Legacy of the Dog ] that actually has a little info on all the nihon ken [ I'll be scanning the pages soon to let you guys take a look, I know few books actually have hokkaido, kai, kishu, etc. in them so it could be interesting ] lists the height / weight as:
Shiba
- M. 15-16", 20lbs
- F. 14-15", 17lbs
Shikoku:
- M. 19-21", 40-53lbs
- F. 17-19", 33-44lbs
Height is at the Withers. The book is originally Japanese, so it might be based on their standards. Don't know if it's accurate or not
Jessica - Thnks~ I'll see if I can get in contact with her. Though to be honest, I'm a little embarassed to send her a random message saying "Can I meet your Kitsune?" lol
And than you have some shibas that are in the 30lb range..
When you find a breeder, hopefully you'll be able to spend some time with him/her, as well as with the parents. You'll find this elsewhere on the forum, but socialization is the key - I think with shibas it needs to be stressed above and beyond. Brandon & Jessica & others have made the statement, a tired shiba is a happy shiba. No matter what breed you select, know that keeping them active and socialized will go a huge way into making this a wonderful addition to your family.
But dogs are great! They're loyal & loving, but they also demand respect. They're just so different then any other animal in the animal kingdom. Different then cats, different then birds, whenever I see a dog, any dog, I really do think Man's Best Friend.
I also figure I have at least a year to a year & a half before I do get my pup, so I should make the most of it, be patient, & try to learn everything I possibly can
Either way, I still think a Shiba would be a good match for you. And not all Shiba are small.
Although the Shiba is independent, they will choose who they love. If your the trainer, the walker, the feeder, the lover, and everything else involved with the dog, then yes, a Shiba can become your best friend. A Shiba does need a lot of work, simply because of its independence and attitudes, but once you get past that -- they make great pets.
Toby can get ticked off every now and then AND will throw a fit, but he willingly lays on his back in my lap, and cuddles with me. Showers me with a little waggy tail and kisses everyday. And he normally only does this with me. I know not all Shiba do this -- but if you begin with these positive behaviors at an early age, they will mostly grow to love it, and return the favor.
It seems - and this is a generalization - Peggy's pups have more of a low maintenance temperament.
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Having said that, I was pretty surprised at how calm Ahi has been since she has been restricted after her surgery. So maybe their temperaments are more adaptive then(or than? Jessica/Dave?) I give them credit for. Our Shikoku have access to a large space to run and play all day and many many pups to play with... maybe that is why I feel they are so energetic, because they play all day, non-stop.
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Also, I want to clarify one thing about the Kai-Ken, our Kai-Ken [Kona] is actually lower energy than our Shikoku-Ken [Ahi and Loa]. He is more alert and reactive than our Shikas but he does spend a fair amount of time sleeping with the Akita.
The issue I see w/ a Kai-Ken and an apartment is their need to be with their owner. They can suffer some pretty bad separation anxiety and this can lead to barking, crying, chewing, etc. This type of thing doesn't work well in an apartment.
As for the barking - it comes and goes, and for Kona, it probably has more to do with maturing and not really a breed specific trait. For example, Kona has really stopped the barking thing... now it's Lani and Hilo that do the majority of the barking.
Kai-Ken do tend to bark more than the other Nihon-Ken tho, Shikoku too really... any dog that was bred to bay boar or bear will have the ability to bark - that is essential in being a baying dog.
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With the Shikoku, sometimes the wait can be over a year - so keep that in mind when planning.
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Steph - I didn't realize Toby was such a big boy!
Brad - Thanks for the clarification! I wouldn't mind a year-long wait though, I think I've learned from my past experience it's better to wait & wait & get something that's worth it. Though I suppose if I'm going to want to get one in fall/winter of 09 I should start contacting breeders now haha
Hmm...so I guess when it comes down to it, it's really either Shiba or Shikoku. Though I'd be super happy with either of them...I'm kind of slighted towards a Shikoku. [ I say this, but the desktop background on all three of my computers are Shiba haha ]
Oh! I had a question! I noticed on Peggy's site she had white Shikoku...I didn't know Shikoku came in a white colour? Or am I mistaken? Also, has anyone here received a Shikoku from Peggy? I know a lot of you guys got yours from Katja.
White is a non-standard color (ie, not in standard, not for showing) but they can occur with all breedings of Shikoku. Katja told me it happens more often if you breed two lighter red sesames together. But in Peggy's case, Tekai is a darker sesame (but not black sesame) and Sweety is a red sesame and they still occur in some litters. In this litter of 6 puppies, I believe only 1 was white -- the other 5 were sesame/red sesame. Three of these puppies remained in Holland and 3 came to the US (Peggy bred the sire/dam here and then shipped the pregnant bitch to Holland to whelp; the breeder in Holland kept 3 of the puppies and sent the others back to the US).
I believe that Peggy has only and a few litters as she has had the Shikoku for less time than Katja. Remember, they are still really rare outside of Japan. In speaking with Peggy (and Katja), they both are really into maintaining the purity of this rare breed (I have a female on order with Katja - in a future litter).
But Peggy's and some of Katja's come from the same stock which was originally imported into Holland from Japan (and then to Canada and the US). The breeder in Holland is still actively breeding Shikoku and showing them.
I sort of like the fact that they're a rarer breed outside of Japan, as in such a case as this, we know the only few breeders that breed them are actually good breeders. I hadn't heard anyone talk too much about getting their pups from Peggy, so thanks again
Moto was a rescue. Although allegedly his previous owner received him from a reputable breeder (it was his owner who neglected him abominably) . We lived in an apartment with Moto and were fine. We have a third dog, a pit bull (Piglet) and so Moto had a playmate and walking companion.
We got Miko after we moved in our house, and while I have never had a shikoku as an only dog so I have nothing to compare her to, she out plays Moto constantly. She exhausts him. He is only 2 and compared to her he is a little senior citizen. I can also say though that Miko is awesome in her play pen when we aren't home. She isn't destructive. Doesn't bark much. ANd will probably be amazing when she is a little more mature (I confess, I am WAY more a dog person than a puppy person).
It sounds like you have already made your decision. And are now exploring whether or not it is the right one. You may want to contact Katja just for her opinion too, as she breeds both shikoku and shiba inu.
Jessica - Thnks for sharing Jessica! haha I bet Miko's a real handful.
Tom - Yeah, I was kind of confused about the white colour as I'd never seen any white Shikoku before! I must have looked at the pictures ten times trying to figure out if they were shikoku or whether I had read it wrong haha. Aww I kind of feel bad for Sora haha She wants to...smell the world!