Last Night.... :o\
[this is a long one - sorry]
So for this post I would like you guys to be a little open minded on the husbandry and of keeping dogs - keep in mind where we live, our land, our fence and our situation...
We have this issue with Kona, and I'd like some advice on it. Also, you should know, I realize we are being totally manipulated by him.
Kona LOVES to be outside - he LOVES it! He seems to especially like to be outside at night.
We have a few females going into heat right now, we have no AC so we keep the windows open at night. The scent from our females carries for miles.
Last night our house was literally swarmed by a pack of Coyote. The woke me up at 1am howling at the house. Kinda interesting. As soon as I looked out the window they ran off, like ninjas - totally quite.
This woke all the pups up, but it especially upset Kona. He cried for about an hour, until I couldn't take it anymore so I let him outside thinking he may need to use the bathroom.
He went outside and disappeared into the night. I kept calling him to come in and he wouldn't come in. After about 30 minutes I got my flashlight and started looking for him. There he was just standing in the Sagebrush looking at me... he wouldn't come in, he ran when I approached him... it was frustrating.
I closed the door and gave him another 30 - 45 minutes then tried again. Same thing. At this point its pushing 2:30am and I'm starting to lose my patience for him and his game.
So I made the choice to just leave him out there, I mean he obviously likes and wants to be out there. I went back to bed. I laid in bed listening and worrying about him - I was freaking out a bit.
I know Kona could take a Coyote, but not a whole freaking pack... so I just kept having visions of him being "jumped" by them in the darkness.
So I got up and went outside to try and get him in again, now its about 3:30am. I looked all over the yard for him and finally found him curled up in a little ball just sleeping away, happy as could be. When I approached him he rolled over and i pet his belly then picked him up and took him inside. He gave me a kiss on the chin [rare].
I let him sleep out with Lani and Hilo and not in hi crate hoping he would not wake us up at 6am to go outside like he always does. No dice, he woke me up 2 hours later at 6am wanting back outside.
He has slowly started getting up earlier and earlier. He clearly prefers to be outside, that's all he wants is just to be outside. He is really primitive like that. We can't kennel him outside because then he cries for hours, but if is free he is fine.
So that's the background, this has been going on for months. My thoughts are, if the dog wants to be outside he can be outside, but I fear for him when he is out there alone. I would put another dog out there with him but none of them love to be outside like he does, they want to sleep in their "den" at night - seems Kona is more like a Coyote and the rest are more likes wolves.
Ahi would love to be out there with him, and if it was them out there together I wouldn't worry about the Coyote issue - but Ahi is not healed enough for that.
I don't want to just put a dog out there with him unless they WANT to be out with him.
Few things we have tried that have failed:
1 - Giving Kona free run of the house.
2 - Leaving Kona outside until just before we go to bed at night.
3 - Leaving his bark collar on him and using the pager feature to correct him when he start whining in the AM.
4 - ignoring him [impossible and will go for HOURS]
So I dunno what to do. What should we do? What would you guys do in this situation?
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So for this post I would like you guys to be a little open minded on the husbandry and of keeping dogs - keep in mind where we live, our land, our fence and our situation...
We have this issue with Kona, and I'd like some advice on it. Also, you should know, I realize we are being totally manipulated by him.
Kona LOVES to be outside - he LOVES it! He seems to especially like to be outside at night.
We have a few females going into heat right now, we have no AC so we keep the windows open at night. The scent from our females carries for miles.
Last night our house was literally swarmed by a pack of Coyote. The woke me up at 1am howling at the house. Kinda interesting. As soon as I looked out the window they ran off, like ninjas - totally quite.
This woke all the pups up, but it especially upset Kona. He cried for about an hour, until I couldn't take it anymore so I let him outside thinking he may need to use the bathroom.
He went outside and disappeared into the night. I kept calling him to come in and he wouldn't come in. After about 30 minutes I got my flashlight and started looking for him. There he was just standing in the Sagebrush looking at me... he wouldn't come in, he ran when I approached him... it was frustrating.
I closed the door and gave him another 30 - 45 minutes then tried again. Same thing. At this point its pushing 2:30am and I'm starting to lose my patience for him and his game.
So I made the choice to just leave him out there, I mean he obviously likes and wants to be out there. I went back to bed. I laid in bed listening and worrying about him - I was freaking out a bit.
I know Kona could take a Coyote, but not a whole freaking pack... so I just kept having visions of him being "jumped" by them in the darkness.
So I got up and went outside to try and get him in again, now its about 3:30am. I looked all over the yard for him and finally found him curled up in a little ball just sleeping away, happy as could be. When I approached him he rolled over and i pet his belly then picked him up and took him inside. He gave me a kiss on the chin [rare].
I let him sleep out with Lani and Hilo and not in hi crate hoping he would not wake us up at 6am to go outside like he always does. No dice, he woke me up 2 hours later at 6am wanting back outside.
He has slowly started getting up earlier and earlier. He clearly prefers to be outside, that's all he wants is just to be outside. He is really primitive like that. We can't kennel him outside because then he cries for hours, but if is free he is fine.
So that's the background, this has been going on for months. My thoughts are, if the dog wants to be outside he can be outside, but I fear for him when he is out there alone. I would put another dog out there with him but none of them love to be outside like he does, they want to sleep in their "den" at night - seems Kona is more like a Coyote and the rest are more likes wolves.
Ahi would love to be out there with him, and if it was them out there together I wouldn't worry about the Coyote issue - but Ahi is not healed enough for that.
I don't want to just put a dog out there with him unless they WANT to be out with him.
Few things we have tried that have failed:
1 - Giving Kona free run of the house.
2 - Leaving Kona outside until just before we go to bed at night.
3 - Leaving his bark collar on him and using the pager feature to correct him when he start whining in the AM.
4 - ignoring him [impossible and will go for HOURS]
So I dunno what to do. What should we do? What would you guys do in this situation?
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Comments
But at the same time, why not just leave him outside to protect like he wants just like you would do with say a TM or other guarding breed? If you leave him outside he might bark and keep you up all night though.
Jeez, you might have to use the bark collar on him in the house at night! I know I kind of discouraged you, but you are kind of running out of options.
I doubt it will make you feel much better, but it does sound like you're in a tight spot. Sorry you have to deal with this.
We were actually discussing this about Hachi recently. She seems to be 'lighter' and happier when outdoors, especially laying under a tree in the backyard or going on a walk, and if the situations were better and we had a more secure system, we would honestly consider letting that be an option for her, living comfortably outside. But in our circumstances we cannot grant her that sort of freedom yet... maybe in the spring when the fencing is done at the new house.. but all this time I never wanted to have an 'outdoor dog' but it might be best for her longterm.
Maybe that is what is best for Kona?
My only big concern would be that he is an intact male and God forbid he was unsupervised and figured out an escape route and got out, intact, procreating with whatever, that would be twice as awful.
Is it like a form of separation anxiety that he won't be still in the crate overnight? If your expectations are for him to be quiet indoors at night, he pretty much has to learn that there is no other option, and be re-crate trained. Or just wear the bark collar overnight, since he seems to keep quiet just wearing it, right?
i dunno, man. its a tight spot.
**couldn't you contact his breeder for advice? I assume she's been breeding for a while and has lots of Kai Ken, maybe she's experienced this type of dog before?
I'd probably advise you to try the shock collar. If you feel you don't have any more options, or if they aren't feasible, it will be the logical step to take (hard has it may be).
It might be really dangerous to leave him outside, because of the coyotes. I mean, even if it's just one and he can take it, he might still get bit and you don't know what the coyote might transmit him. And if he starts barking without stopping your neighbours might start complaining.
Jen had a good idea, contacting hi breeder might be helpful.
1) I know you've said in the past that Kona is really super attached to Jen. Maybe he spends his time at night already a bit stressed since Jen isn't around and so whatever else happens just sets him off worse. Perhaps an option for you is to move his crate into the bedroom so he can be closer to Jen at night, farther away from the other pups who may set him off, and hopefully not in a position where he can see what is going on outside. Further, since he's close, you can also try other dissuasion techniques (like a squirt bottle or something) that wouldn't work if he's in another room.
2) Maybe he will calm down and stay calm if you drape a heavy(ish) blanket over his crate at night so the scents, sounds, and more importantly sights are all muffled for him. I know a few dogs that will sleep like babies for hour and hours with a blanket covering the top and sides of the crate but will wake you up at the first sign of daylight if they can see it easily. I know you said its hot right now, so you might want to put a small fan in there to keep the air moving for him.
Just a couple thoughts. I'll let you know if I have any others.
To me, by Kona not responding to your commands outside the house, maybe he thinks that when he is outside, he is the pack leader. Therefor not listening to your commands and dogding you when you approach. I think you may have given him TOO much freedom and now he thinks that its his turf and he owns it. (just a thought)
I would try some attentive training outside in your yard. I know you guys take him to obedience training and do some training in your home, do you guys ever do any attentive training outside?
You should get like a 30 ft. lead and give it a try. Don't give him too much slack at first, maybe 10-15ft. Let him get distracted, then slowly make a circle behind him and once you are right behind him out of his eye site - make a noise or whatever you use (anything except his name - he will start to associate this noise/word with "Crap - my owner doesn't want me to do what im doing and I need to find my owner and pay attention to him), yank on the lead, kneel down and call his name. He SHOULD come to you, then give lots of praise. Walk around a little bit, and then let him get distracted again and repeat. You have to make sure that he is totally distracted and not aware of where you are when you yank on the leash. After 2-3 times of this, you will notice his eyes will be on you at all times, wherever you move, he will follow. Then you can give him more lead and try it again. Since you also have a large enclosed yard, after you think he has gotten the hang of it, you should try it off lead.
Again, just a thought - it worked wonders with Ninja. The other day I dropped his lead - mid jog by accident in our neighborhood. I stopped, made the noise - he turned around, looked at me, then I said "Ninja, Come!" and he trotted back to me. I was really thrilled that he responded so well! So - its a good training tool if any of your dogs ever get loose too.
We have tried spray deterrents for the barking but they don't work on any of our dogs.
Kona doesn't bark in his crate in the AM he whines, so a bark collar will not work. His whining is very loud but bark collar work based on the jarring vibration from a bark and a whine doesn't create enough of a vibration - I was told this by the manufacturers of the bark collar we purchased [then sent back].
We do have one of those normal shock collars with a remote that our trainer/friend gave us. I just tested it at 100% on the underside of my arm, it wasn't really very bad. It didn't feel good, but it didn't hurt either... so we may explore that route.
Usually when Kona is in the yard he comes to us fine, he takes a bit more work than the others but nothing that would make me feel like he doesn't respect my authority. I think last night he was just really freaked out by the Coyote and so was acting strange. He acted as if he didn't recognize me, so maybe the flashlight freaked him out or something.
I think the blanket over the crate thing may work, its cool enough at night here to where it shouldn't be to hot.
As for bringing him into our room - I don't want our dogs sleeping in our room. That's my allergy "safe zone".
I emailed his breeder about all this to see if she has some suggestions - good idea Jen. I know she just kennels her dogs outside, so she may not know to do anything.
I agree about the intact thing, that honestly is the main reason I can't let him sleep outside - that and I don't want him hurt... but I am very doubtful that he will escape. We put a lot of thought into our fence in order to make it extremely difficult for a dog to get in or out. Plus, like I said before, all he did was go out in the yard and go to bed. He seems to just want to guard the yard.
I think its just going to take good old fashioned ignoring to break him. We just don't have doors to our bedroom or upstairs so it is REALLY LOUD when he does this. Its impossible for even Jen to sleep through, and she will sleep through ANYTHING.
We are going to go look for earplugs, maybe that will help.
If the blanket thing, shock collar, and earplugs fail I am just going to kennel him outside. Next week we are having a concrete slab put in under the kennels to make it impossible for the dogs to dig out of. We barely use those now, only for RAW bones and time outs but if this keeps going I may just kennel him out there since he obviously would rather be outside. That goes against what we believe, and like, but I think this situations is different enough that it may cause us to think outside of our comfort zone.
Thanx!
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The only concern I'd have with him constantly being outside is that he may grow a little distant from you. But, if you don't mind that risk or are willing to accept it, couldn't you install a small doggy-door so that he could come in & out as he pleases? I don't know if you'd be comfortable with that as I know raccoons are known to use these doors as well ;p
If you really don't want him to keep going outside, I would use the ignore method. From what I understand it takes some time to make the transition but is pretty effective. Just make sure once you start doing it you never cave in ;p
That's my advice
The other thing I'd agree with (as you mention above) is to ignore the behavior you don't want. By reacting to it (even in a presumed punitive manner such as using a shock or other technique) is more likely to reinforce it, rather than stopping the behavior, in my opinion and experience. It seems that dogs are kind of like young children in that regard --- some attention from you when they are "acting out" is better than none at all in their eyes!
Having said all that, we did succumb to Josephine's neediness quite early on and put her crate in our bedroom, and now that she is not crated at night (most of the time) she sleeps on her doggie bed in our room. As she has gotten older, though, she sometimes will sleep on the living room floor or in the hallway instead. It may have to do with our daughter moving home again a month or so back --- maybe trying to "guard" Megan, as well as my husband and I.
Best of luck with your busy boy, Kona!
Coyote in the purist sense are just like you described, but most "Coyote" now are Coyote/Wolf hybrids. That is why they are much bigger than a Coyote should be.
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I agree that ignoring him is the key. Maybe moving him to the bedroom might help.
Jen and I are the King and Queen of ignoring dogs and puppies. We have ignored 7 so far with no issues. Our other dogs were all ignored as pups and are now are pretty quiet and sit in their crates like good dogs till we let them out. Kona is the exception, he is impossible to ignore and will go on and on for hours [really I have timed it for 4 hours before].
Just so we are all clear, here is a video from when he was younger of what he sounds like... now he does the same thing only LOUDER:
Could you sleep through this and ignore it?
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That video is so sad awww. It breaks my heart to hear baby Kona crying. I don't know, I'm pretty good at ignoring things, [ like annoying people ;p ] though I have to admit it must be really hard
Just don't get a Maremma, their primary line of defence is to bark at anything that may be a threat. Your neighbours might not appreciate that.
Edit: After a second look, it seems this is the same for all breeds of LGDs. I've only had experiences with Maremmas, so I was unsure about how other breeds guard.
Once we move to our small farm [2 years or so], where we plan to have Alpaca & Sheep, we will probably employ 2 SARs and an Akbash.
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The land we are buying for our farm is pretty high up [9k feet] and very remote with lots of Coyote, Mountain Lion, black bear and some wolves. So we will definitely need some LGDs.
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lol :x~
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livestock_guardian_dog
I love the Great Pyrenees the best out of the lot.
...
I want one
Haha, I'm imagining them guarding penguins now. http://www.warrnambool.vic.gov.au/page/page.asp?page_Id=527
Who would've thought?
[ on a side-note, sorry for hijacking your thread Brad
So last night Kona slept upstairs with us, not in a crate just on a dog bed on the floor. He made it to 7am before he started pacing. He didn't whine tho and let us sleep an hour longer than normal!
Thanx for the advice guys!
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Also, I now understand why the outdoor sleeping would not have assured a restful sleep for you from your post about the "aggressive" coyotes. I think they can grow to be about the size of Kona and I have read articles about them attacking dogs just like the wolves have done in some areas where civilization has encroached on them.
The video was great -- I can tell Kona is nothing if he's not persistent! Another dog on the verge of human speech!