Hi Rui - Since they are from your neck of the woods, and you know a shitload about dog breeds, I was wondering if you knew anything about Estrela Mountain Dog?
I know a bit about them. Do you have a specific thing you want to know? As you know they are LGD, and acoording to the shepherds in Serra da Estrela (Estrela Mountain) very good at it. They are very territorial dogs, that will protect their family against anything in their power and with their own lives. They have a reputation, around here, of being very serious dogs and kind of rough. They are true working dogs in essence, although some modern selection has tried and succeeded in getting some of that out of them and making them more of a family dog. While they did so, the Serra da Estrela still maintains his working dog side and will get it done if needed. I'm sending you the tranlated standard od the Portuguese canine club, along with the standards of the Castro Laboreiro and the Rafeiro Alentejano, two related breeds to the Serra da Estrela. The Castro is very likely my favourite portuguese breed and is still in use for it's original job of LGD (not trying to influence you here)
Thanx for the info and the emails! I really appreciate it, I figured you would be the guy to ask abut this breed. )
Here is the short version of the long story as to what I am doing...
Jen and I have seen some Mountain Lions and Black Bear while hiking, it freaked Jen out a bit. We started toying with the idea of how effective our dogs would be in preventing an attack and came to the conclusion that, with the exception of *maybe* Kona or Ahi, they would not be very effective. So we started looking at KBD/RELs as a packing / protective dog.
Then this Coyote thing has become a bigger, and real, threat. So this got me to start thinking about LGDs. We plan to open a farm in the next 2 years, once we move, so we had already planned to own some LGDs.
So with the Coyote issue starting to materialize [which will only get worse as it gets colder], and the hiking thing being a concern I started wondering if there was a molosser LGD breed that would be able to handle both roles.
From my research and speaking some breeders I think a Sarplaninac would work really well for this dual role job... but then someone recommended the Estrela Mountain Dog to me. I did a little research and they sound like they would work well but I wanted to get a bit more info.
I don't know the breeders around there and, I'm sorry to say, but in general when dogs are taken to America they tend to get away from what they used to be. I'm sure that there are exceptions to the rule. If the breeder where you get them selects them taking into consideration working ability, I think you'll get a good dog that will defend you guys form anything it can. You'll just have to be aware to any possible aggressiveness towards the other dogs, because Serras are usually very hierarchical, as is pretty much every Portuguese guard dog (and not only Portuguese). They don't inhibit themselves to give any other dog a piece of their minds (and teeth!) if they think he or she is crossing the line. I've seen it with Castros when we went up north last year and it sounded pretty hectic, but it was just normal pack dynamics, as I'm sure you know. They're very rustic dogs, that will stand a lot of cold and altitude, as Serra da Estrela stands at 2000m at the top and gets kind of cold in Winter.
If you want my opinion, the best Portuguese breed for you might be the Cão de Gado Transmontano. They're bigger than the others, but softer dogs while still getting the job done. Of course it's much easier for you to get a Serra, as you can get it from there. Also, I think you'll need at least a pair of them, whatever the breed you choose, as no dog alone will stand up to a bear f the bear means business. KBD's scare them because they're hectic, but I doubt they will match the bear if the bear would ever decide to stand it's ground at fight.Same thing goes for Pumas, probably even more so. The only dog I know that would, alone, give the Puma hell would be the Argentinian Mastiff, but those would have some trouble standing the cold, I think, and even those normally work in pairs.
Also, get that shotgun thing cleared out, cause you'll definitely need it to defend yourself and Jen as well as the dogs. You don't want to take the chance of a "lucky" bite getting one of them. I was thinking if there are any "perimeter detectors" that would sound some alarms or light some bright light if your fence was crossed or something. That might heavily reduce the chances of an actual face to face happening.
Glad to help, if you need anything don't hesitate to say.
Thanx again for the info. I really like like the Cão de Gado Transmontano, they remind me a bit of a Kangal. My only issue is with their size, I'm concerned it would make them less effective in packing. I also have no idea where I would get one in the states.
As for the Estrela Mountain Dog, they are really growing on me. I spoke to a breeder that I think is great. I'd love to hear what you think:
I would much prefer to import one from Portugal, maybe even one with "pure" lines but it seems silly to import a working breed and put it in harms way protecting us from predators.
As of now I am on this breeders list for the breeding in September, for a female. I have not put $ down or anything tho.
I am also taking your advice in regards to having 2 [the breeder mentioned above recommended it as well], so I am on a list for a male Sarplaninac pup that should be born early next year. I think that pair will be an effect force... also if the Akita do ok with them then I think we got it covered for sure. )
Once we move to our farm [2 years or so] we will probably add an Akbash to our LGD group.
Just had a look at the website, it seems that they take care of their pups the good way. Thy have nice dogs too, just from the pictures and without seeing them live or anything, I'd say they have better males than females, I seem to see a lot of flat ears on their females when they should be slightly rolled back, but that won't be in the way of their work ability. They do have one male that I would like to see more of "Choupo" his head look good and by what they say about him, seems to be a great dog. If I'm not mistaken your dog's sire will be Dennis or Dourado, both of them look very nice, I might say I prefer Dennis based on the pics I can see. That breeder seems great to me too, probably even better than what you'd get here.
About the CGT, I don't think you'll find them anywhere outside Portugal for now. Even around here they have only been recognized as a breed 3 or 4 years ago. You would have to import and they're probably too early in the selective process to be able to have any guaranties. I still think that a good CGT would be the right choice for what you want as I think they would get along with the rest of the pack. But I doubt a puppy brought up with your pack will give you any trouble other than a few dominance scuffles than happen in pretty much every pack.
I think, if you're getting into Serras, you made a good choice of breeder, and you'll have a good guard dog. Together with the Sarpla, it would be an effective pair, I'd say. Then if you had the Akbash, you'll be very well taken care of (you know me and the Anatolians). Of course then, I'll have to visit to see the Akbash, :-P
One day, if I may suggest, consider getting a Castro. I liked them already, but since I went up north last year and got to go to Castro Laboreiro village and see them there, I was kind of in love. You have no idea how hard it was not to bring one home, we had to refrain ourselves a lot, heheh.
I thought I would bring you up to speed on the LGD thing...
I have talked to 10+ breeders of various breeds. I am still sold on the Estrela but it will be some time before they have a working litter. So I was looking to get a Sarplaninac first and then add the EMD [Estrela Mountain Dog] later.
Well, something I learned changed that plan, in a way I never thought it would go...
After speaking with several Sarplaninac owners and breeders I learned that they are extremely dog-aggressive. I was referred to a few Caucasian Ovcharka breeder instead, and I was shocked by this... But after speaking with them, and some owners, come to find out, COs are less dog aggressive than Shars!
I did a few days of research and speaking with rescuers as well as breeders and came to a decision that a CO is the safer way to go [NEVER thought I would type that!].
I spoke to a lady that's doing a breeding. This is a repeat breeding and she is VERY confident a female CO from this breeding would work well for us. Since this is a repeat breeding [something I would usually not be excited about] she knows what she will get form this breeding and is confident it will work. Most of the Shar breeders I spoke to, even if they were doing repeat breedings, was not willing to guarantee that it would work. They really made me feel like the Shar temperament was less-predictable than the CO's.
So we have decided to go with a CO. I never in my life thought I would own one, but I'm excited about.
Assuming all goes well with the CO we will either add a EMD or rescue another CO to use as an LGD team.
WOW! I would never believe that, if it didn't come from someone like you! I'm still in awe and kind of suspicious about that, LOL! Those crazy "beasts" are "safer" than a Sarpla? Unbelievable! I've read the sort version of a series of letters written in the 19th century (if I'm not mistaken) by a breeder of Bulldogs that was offered an Istrian (Caucasian Ovcharka) from a breeder. She said that the Istrian was an angel and that her bulldogs used to taunt him and he would just "grin and bear" it. The CO breeder wrote back saying "Beware of the fury of the Istrian". A few weeks later she wrote back saying "You were right, this dog is a demon. My Bulldogs provoked him and he killed them all!"
So, all I can say is I'm excited that you're getting one and "Beware of the fury of the Istrian"
Yea, Jen and I are still kinda shocked too. Honestly, I'm freaked out about it from stories I have read and heard, but then I have read and heard a lot of stories that go the opposite way too. I think it comes down to how they are raised and the bloodlines they come from.
I mean how many horror stories have you read about Akita? Could you see Kuma doing anything like that - I mean his best friend is a kitten!
So, I think you just have to filter out the hype. If you want to treat them like crystal dragons and put them in a glass case, then that's what you will get - same goes for Akita, and any dog really.
Who knows tho, until I own one I am just a speculator as well. The good news is this breeder gives a life-time guarantee, so if it goes bad at least I know I can give her back - not that I want to do that, but if it came down to the safety of my other dogs I most certainly would.
This is the kennel... their site kinda sux, but its got some good info on it.
Yeah, you're right. Before I got Kuma, I was kind of worried about his possible reactions to other dogs and all the aggressiveness/dominance thing. I still am, since he has reached full maturity and something might change.
The COs are truly beautiful dogs, always thought so. It's the stories we read that just get me thinking "Impossible to control". But then again, I got Kuma thinking on the principle that no dog raised by me would be on his own "schedule" and I would do what I could to socialize him properly. I'm sure you thing the same way and that that female will get a fine education form you guys and all of the pups.
Having said all of this, I still think that you have balls of steel, heheheh and that they are beautiful dogs that will lay their lives for you if needed
OK, I need to correct myself on a little snippet of information. Just checked my books, because I starte dto doubt myself, and the Istrian I was talking about is not the Caucasian. It's actually a close relative of the Sarplaninac, called Kartsky Ovtchar or Karst dog. They are a bit smaller than the Sarpla, and are generally calm dogs, rugged, that are "insensitive to pain". They were also used to fight off wolves, bears and thieves. Although calm, they have a very shallow tolerance to provocation and will fight back fiercely (think of the story above) The breeder of the Istrian in the story,was Karl Kammerer and I still have no confirmation on the 19th century thing. Sorry about the misinformation. There are so many breeds I have read about that I tend to mix them up sometimes.
Comments
As you know they are LGD, and acoording to the shepherds in Serra da Estrela (Estrela Mountain) very good at it. They are very territorial dogs, that will protect their family against anything in their power and with their own lives. They have a reputation, around here, of being very serious dogs and kind of rough. They are true working dogs in essence, although some modern selection has tried and succeeded in getting some of that out of them and making them more of a family dog. While they did so, the Serra da Estrela still maintains his working dog side and will get it done if needed.
I'm sending you the tranlated standard od the Portuguese canine club, along with the standards of the Castro Laboreiro and the Rafeiro Alentejano, two related breeds to the Serra da Estrela. The Castro is very likely my favourite portuguese breed and is still in use for it's original job of LGD (not trying to influence you here)
Thanx for the info and the emails! I really appreciate it, I figured you would be the guy to ask abut this breed. )
Here is the short version of the long story as to what I am doing...
Jen and I have seen some Mountain Lions and Black Bear while hiking, it freaked Jen out a bit. We started toying with the idea of how effective our dogs would be in preventing an attack and came to the conclusion that, with the exception of *maybe* Kona or Ahi, they would not be very effective. So we started looking at KBD/RELs as a packing / protective dog.
Then this Coyote thing has become a bigger, and real, threat. So this got me to start thinking about LGDs. We plan to open a farm in the next 2 years, once we move, so we had already planned to own some LGDs.
So with the Coyote issue starting to materialize [which will only get worse as it gets colder], and the hiking thing being a concern I started wondering if there was a molosser LGD breed that would be able to handle both roles.
From my research and speaking some breeders I think a Sarplaninac would work really well for this dual role job... but then someone recommended the Estrela Mountain Dog to me. I did a little research and they sound like they would work well but I wanted to get a bit more info.
Thanx!
~Brad
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If you want my opinion, the best Portuguese breed for you might be the Cão de Gado Transmontano. They're bigger than the others, but softer dogs while still getting the job done. Of course it's much easier for you to get a Serra, as you can get it from there.
Also, I think you'll need at least a pair of them, whatever the breed you choose, as no dog alone will stand up to a bear f the bear means business. KBD's scare them because they're hectic, but I doubt they will match the bear if the bear would ever decide to stand it's ground at fight.Same thing goes for Pumas, probably even more so. The only dog I know that would, alone, give the Puma hell would be the Argentinian Mastiff, but those would have some trouble standing the cold, I think, and even those normally work in pairs.
Also, get that shotgun thing cleared out, cause you'll definitely need it to defend yourself and Jen as well as the dogs. You don't want to take the chance of a "lucky" bite getting one of them. I was thinking if there are any "perimeter detectors" that would sound some alarms or light some bright light if your fence was crossed or something. That might heavily reduce the chances of an actual face to face happening.
Glad to help, if you need anything don't hesitate to say.
As for the Estrela Mountain Dog, they are really growing on me. I spoke to a breeder that I think is great. I'd love to hear what you think:
http://www.trailsendestrela.com
I would much prefer to import one from Portugal, maybe even one with "pure" lines but it seems silly to import a working breed and put it in harms way protecting us from predators.
As of now I am on this breeders list for the breeding in September, for a female. I have not put $ down or anything tho.
I am also taking your advice in regards to having 2 [the breeder mentioned above recommended it as well], so I am on a list for a male Sarplaninac pup that should be born early next year. I think that pair will be an effect force... also if the Akita do ok with them then I think we got it covered for sure. )
Once we move to our farm [2 years or so] we will probably add an Akbash to our LGD group.
----
About the CGT, I don't think you'll find them anywhere outside Portugal for now. Even around here they have only been recognized as a breed 3 or 4 years ago. You would have to import and they're probably too early in the selective process to be able to have any guaranties. I still think that a good CGT would be the right choice for what you want as I think they would get along with the rest of the pack. But I doubt a puppy brought up with your pack will give you any trouble other than a few dominance scuffles than happen in pretty much every pack.
I think, if you're getting into Serras, you made a good choice of breeder, and you'll have a good guard dog. Together with the Sarpla, it would be an effective pair, I'd say.
Then if you had the Akbash, you'll be very well taken care of (you know me and the Anatolians). Of course then, I'll have to visit to see the Akbash, :-P
One day, if I may suggest, consider getting a Castro. I liked them already, but since I went up north last year and got to go to Castro Laboreiro village and see them there, I was kind of in love. You have no idea how hard it was not to bring one home, we had to refrain ourselves a lot, heheh.
I have talked to 10+ breeders of various breeds. I am still sold on the Estrela but it will be some time before they have a working litter. So I was looking to get a Sarplaninac first and then add the EMD [Estrela Mountain Dog] later.
Well, something I learned changed that plan, in a way I never thought it would go...
After speaking with several Sarplaninac owners and breeders I learned that they are extremely dog-aggressive. I was referred to a few Caucasian Ovcharka breeder instead, and I was shocked by this... But after speaking with them, and some owners, come to find out, COs are less dog aggressive than Shars!
I did a few days of research and speaking with rescuers as well as breeders and came to a decision that a CO is the safer way to go [NEVER thought I would type that!].
I spoke to a lady that's doing a breeding. This is a repeat breeding and she is VERY confident a female CO from this breeding would work well for us. Since this is a repeat breeding [something I would usually not be excited about] she knows what she will get form this breeding and is confident it will work. Most of the Shar breeders I spoke to, even if they were doing repeat breedings, was not willing to guarantee that it would work. They really made me feel like the Shar temperament was less-predictable than the CO's.
So we have decided to go with a CO. I never in my life thought I would own one, but I'm excited about.
Assuming all goes well with the CO we will either add a EMD or rescue another CO to use as an LGD team.
Just wanted to let you know.
----
I would never believe that, if it didn't come from someone like you!
I'm still in awe and kind of suspicious about that, LOL! Those crazy "beasts" are "safer" than a Sarpla? Unbelievable!
I've read the sort version of a series of letters written in the 19th century (if I'm not mistaken) by a breeder of Bulldogs that was offered an Istrian (Caucasian Ovcharka) from a breeder. She said that the Istrian was an angel and that her bulldogs used to taunt him and he would just "grin and bear" it. The CO breeder wrote back saying "Beware of the fury of the Istrian". A few weeks later she wrote back saying "You were right, this dog is a demon. My Bulldogs provoked him and he killed them all!"
So, all I can say is I'm excited that you're getting one and "Beware of the fury of the Istrian"
I mean how many horror stories have you read about Akita? Could you see Kuma doing anything like that - I mean his best friend is a kitten!
So, I think you just have to filter out the hype. If you want to treat them like crystal dragons and put them in a glass case, then that's what you will get - same goes for Akita, and any dog really.
Who knows tho, until I own one I am just a speculator as well. The good news is this breeder gives a life-time guarantee, so if it goes bad at least I know I can give her back - not that I want to do that, but if it came down to the safety of my other dogs I most certainly would.
This is the kennel... their site kinda sux, but its got some good info on it.
The litter will be born in September.
The breeding is of this male:
To these females:
[side note] I really like this girl:
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The COs are truly beautiful dogs, always thought so. It's the stories we read that just get me thinking "Impossible to control". But then again, I got Kuma thinking on the principle that no dog raised by me would be on his own "schedule" and I would do what I could to socialize him properly. I'm sure you thing the same way and that that female will get a fine education form you guys and all of the pups.
Having said all of this, I still think that you have balls of steel, heheheh and that they are beautiful dogs that will lay their lives for you if needed
----
Just checked my books, because I starte dto doubt myself, and the Istrian I was talking about is not the Caucasian. It's actually a close relative of the Sarplaninac, called Kartsky Ovtchar or Karst dog. They are a bit smaller than the Sarpla, and are generally calm dogs, rugged, that are "insensitive to pain". They were also used to fight off wolves, bears and thieves. Although calm, they have a very shallow tolerance to provocation and will fight back fiercely (think of the story above) The breeder of the Istrian in the story,was Karl Kammerer and I still have no confirmation on the 19th century thing.
Sorry about the misinformation. There are so many breeds I have read about that I tend to mix them up sometimes.
Thanx!
~Brad
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