Kona's temper...
Kona is the only dog we have that truly seems to have a temper! He can get really pissed. Most of the other pups we have are go-with-the-flow types, and will react if needed but Kona will actually get mad and lash out - almost vindictively.
Just now he had a piece of bark, he was pretty proud of it, he was strutting all around the yard with it. Well, since he was making such a fuss about it Ahi wanted his bark, so she started trying to take it from him [standard Shikoku antics].
They were a bit "growly" about it was but nothing out of the norm for our pack [and Ahi or Kona]. Then Ahi got it from him and took it a few steps away and dropped it in fort of her.
Kona FREAKED OUT, he charged at her hackles up, head low, and they got into it - big time! I think this may be the first actual "fight" we have had in our pack. Jen and I were standing right there so we broke it up after about 15 seconds.
At first we thought it was the typical pack banter, where they make a bunch of noise then stop ans things have been cleared up [that is why we waited 15 seconds before breaking it up]... but not this time.
There was no blood or anything, so they obviously just wanted to test each other [if they had want to hurt each other they would have], but I think Ahi may have met her match with Kona. He is solid muscle and can take just as much abuse as she can [and seems to enjoy being beat up, like Ahi].
We are gonna have to watch those 2.
\ Pack dynamics can be complicated sometimes.
They are both in timeouts in crates right next to each other.
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Just now he had a piece of bark, he was pretty proud of it, he was strutting all around the yard with it. Well, since he was making such a fuss about it Ahi wanted his bark, so she started trying to take it from him [standard Shikoku antics].
They were a bit "growly" about it was but nothing out of the norm for our pack [and Ahi or Kona]. Then Ahi got it from him and took it a few steps away and dropped it in fort of her.
Kona FREAKED OUT, he charged at her hackles up, head low, and they got into it - big time! I think this may be the first actual "fight" we have had in our pack. Jen and I were standing right there so we broke it up after about 15 seconds.
At first we thought it was the typical pack banter, where they make a bunch of noise then stop ans things have been cleared up [that is why we waited 15 seconds before breaking it up]... but not this time.
There was no blood or anything, so they obviously just wanted to test each other [if they had want to hurt each other they would have], but I think Ahi may have met her match with Kona. He is solid muscle and can take just as much abuse as she can [and seems to enjoy being beat up, like Ahi].
We are gonna have to watch those 2.
\ Pack dynamics can be complicated sometimes.They are both in timeouts in crates right next to each other.
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Comments
How are the others (you already said about Loa) taking the Return of the Ahi Monster? I guess Hilo should be pretty much unaffected by it (in a hierarchy point of view).But you have more possible "contenders" for that 2nd (3rd if Kaia is all that :-) ) spot, I'm thinking Lani and Fuji.
These might be interesting times for you guys (notice I didn't write pleasant)
You are right though, in 15 seconds, if they had truly been trying to hurt each other, you'd probably be on the way to the vet with both of the dogs.
Will you always keep the pack together or begin creating 'areas' for other dogs to play amongst themselves, of similar play styles and limits?
Do you think saying Kona has a 'temper' is humanizing him a bit? Do you think that dogs living in a pack with human pack leaders ought to be humanized a bit?
Just for thought, do you notice in down time that Kona and Ahi might have a tendency to remain closer to one another (not forced, but naturally choose to) or farther apart?
Do they groom one another? Or other dogs groom them? Do you think grooming has any significance in pack order or behavior?
Rereading what I just typed, I realize it sounds like an interview, so maybe it is. I'm so interested in the dynamics you have, with intact dogs and spayed dogs, dogs getting back from a long recovery period, dogs getting older and growing beside the other..
Maybe you guys should start writing a book.
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Rui - Ahi being back in the mix has caused less "structure" issues and more "logistic" issues. Ahi plays hard, that sets some of the dogs off. When the dogs see each other running and playing it ignites their chase behavior and they get in the mix too - even dogs that don't usually play [like Lani]. So we have to limit who we allow out with Ahi. For example, we may let Loa and Ahi out, or Kona and Ahi, or Fuji and Ahi. We also may do Fuji, Ahi and Kona, but never Fuji, Loa and Ahi unless we are out there to watch the whole time. Fuji excites Ahi > Ahi excites Loa > then it inevitably ends with Ahi and Loa having an "issue". This is due to Loa not being as confident as Fuji or Ahi so she gets reactive/defensive.
We have seen more issues with Kona, Fuji and Ahi than any of the others - Kona vs. Fuji or Kona vs. Ahi. This wasn't really the case till Ahi was back in the mix.
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Brandon - I agree, but I want to point out that if the dogs wanted to hurt each other, damage would have been done in as little as 3 seconds - even before we could break it up w/o the 15 second pause.
Also to your first point - if a higher-up pack member wants something from another dog they do not fight to keep it unless that want to challenge for dominance. For example, if Hilo walked up and wanted Kona's bark Kona would have dropped it and walked away. So I don't really feel a fight was the inevitable outcome in this situation. imho.
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Jen:
difficult? - Yes, very. Its a full-time job [Jen's full-time job and my part-time job].
Because as an urban pack, their order is constantly changing, right? - That is my general belief and what I have heard/red from many behaviorist. This is due to the fact there is no fear of death. They don't have to fight for food to survive, so they create rules around other rewarding things. These rules are followed simply by allowing the dog its most important to to get that specific reward - fights happen when a reward is considered equally important to one or more dogs [like Kona and Ahi and the bark (aka the reward)]
And with you adding intact males and females going into heat all the time, how are you going to keep tensions low with that dynamic ever changing? How are you going to be able to tell when they need to sort it out and when it might be something more? - When hormones are at higher levels [like a female in heat] we separate the dogs and only allow certain small groups out at a time. During this time males are not allowed to interact with other males [Maui is not included in the "male" category as he causes no issues and shows no interest in the girls or boys and is not perceived as a threat by the males].
Do they always utilize their bite inhibition? - Our dogs have never hurt each other, so they must.
Will you always keep the pack together or begin creating 'areas' for other dogs to play amongst themselves, of similar play styles and limits? - We already group the dogs and only allow certain dogs out at a time. Only time this rule is broken is when both of us are out there watching them. It's also an ever changing situation, dogs that are fine with each other one day may hate each other the next. I think a lot of breeders deal with this by just kenneling all their dogs so they can't interact - this, imo, just perpetuates the issues since the dogs are not socialized together and therefore can never be trusted together.
Do you think saying Kona has a 'temper' is humanizing him a bit? - No. Just like saying a dog gets frustrated isn't humanizing either - they do get frustrated, and they do get mad. Having a temper is getting mad, right? Some dogs have shorter fuses than other, just like people, so the dogs/people with the shorter fuses are said to have a "temper". That's my thought on it at least. :oT
Do you think that dogs living in a pack with human pack leaders ought to be humanized a bit? - I dunno.
Just for thought, do you notice in down time that Kona and Ahi might have a tendency to remain closer to one another (not forced, but naturally choose to) or farther apart? - Kona and Ahi have always liked each other and have spent time around each other. Kona used to lay by her crate when she was recovering while the rest of the pups where in the office w/ us. I think, just like humans, like-minded people/dogs tend to hangout and argue more.
Do they groom one another? Or other dogs groom them? Do you think grooming has any significance in pack order or behavior? - Our dogs seems to show no real structural importance to grooming. They all kinda randomly groom each other, I think its an important bonding behavior but not a sign of dominance/submission. Now liking at each others mouths, the way all our dogs do to Hilo, is a VERY significant sign of submission. It's kinda like groveling in front of a king/queen - but I wouldn't consider that "grooming".
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As Kona matures couldn't this change though too. Is it impossible to think that when Kona hits 18 months and is a full raging teenager, he might not get the idea to try and challenge Hilo?
I see a bigger potential in Kahuna and Kona having issues.
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Just curious
Glad to hear no one was hurt!
Brandon, since Nemo doesn't have the Alpha dog, if he got in Hilo's face, wouldn't Hilo just teach him his manners?
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Brandon - So you have really never seen Nemo be corrected by [and submissive to] an Alpha dog? Interesting.
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Having a pack is a dream, but the thought of it is a bit daunting as well. Hope all works out as far as the pack balancing itself out!
With all of the dogs he is friends with, none are alpha over him, if things get carried away he does not submit. Of course when everything is fine and they are playing he will roll on his back and let other dogs jump on him or whatever.