Yeah, you got it, Brad. Pictures of coloration are right on.
The thing about Akatora is that there is more of it in certain bloodlines. A real Akatora is quite rare, and even when breeding two Aka's, most of the time you still get Kuro or Chu. They're very sought after at the moment seeing as the breeders are trying to work to preserve the Aka's. I'm not sure what the genetics behind the coloration are, I'll try and find some info on it.
I agree with Brad on the puppy thing too. It's really hard to tell what the pup is going to end up like, unless you've been breeding/showing for years. I have absolutely no clue looking at pups :P But one of the breeders I know is amazing and just goes through litters saying what size/type/coat/temperament they'll have.
Thanks Brad! I see a huge difference on those two pictures! The stop is more defined on the second pup...looks Akita-ish! I LOVE love love the Aka-tora. Gorgeous!Then, Chu-Tora followed by Kuro-Tora [ though all are awesome ]
Corina...have we ever denied Nihon Ken Spam
Shigeru - Weren't you planning on getting a Kai? ~
I'm trying... I'm just being very picky about getting the right pup, and so far it's not happening. There are actually some litters I may take a look at next month, but I'm so swamped with work seeing as it's getting closer to the end of the year. Everything goes into fast forward here once you hit October I'll probably be better off getting a new pup when I have more time and energy to devote to him/her (probably her).
And just a clarification for Jen, the cream Kai are not recognized here in Japan (so far as I know anyway!)
There's only one white Kai I know of, owned by a man in Mitaka near Tokyo. I just grabbed these from his website. Not the best quality, but it's a white/cream Kai Naturally there are Albinos every now and again as well, but apparently before the Kai standard was set, there were tri-colored Kai's and cream colored Kai's around.
Thanks Shigeru. I don't know if its because I am in love with a cream shiba or what, but I just don't understand why cream is written out of a lot of the standards for the Nihon Ken - but not the J. Akitas? I know of cream shikokus, are they against standard? Why is cream such a bad thing? I never intend on showing or breeding, its just a curiosity for me. A shiba rescue person told me that it was a color created from inbreeding which I assume is a total crap understanding of breeding and color production...
Is it like the chocolate lab? That for the longest time they were against standard for no real reason than over time they are now allowed?
The way I understood it, cream Shibas are against the standard because urajiro is so important. With cream, you cannot tell if they have proper urajiro. I don't know much about Akita and Shikoku standards, but I'm going to assume urajiro isn't very important in the Akita standard, therefore cream Akitas are allowed. I would imagine cream Shikoku are also against standard since urajiro seems moderately important, as far as I can tell.
Love the pics of the "white" or "cream" Kai. I thought I saw another such reference to a light colored Kai awhile back, but maybe it was not on this forum. In any event, what I recall is that these white dogs actually had a different name (escapes me now what that was), and it was because they were from a different area of Japan (not the Kai peninsula). However, in many respects they were similar to the Kai (size, temperament, body shape and features, etc.) Perhaps I have my facts all mixed up!
If you go to Classy Kennel's website she has pictures of creams [ I was calling them blondes? lol ] on there, from puppies to adults. I think one was even some form of champion.
Personally, I like the Brindle > the Cream though they're all so pretty [ there's just something very unique in a Kai's bridling that I love . ] ~
Bev, I have an article on that somewhere which I can try to dig up. I think it was the Takayasu-ken.
I don't recall reading anywhere that cream Shikoku's are not standard, but I have heard that they're not 'desirable' and that cream and brindle pups are culled. There's a famous hunter/breeder down in Kochi who breeds Honkawa line Shikoku's. They're all working dogs, and he has quite a variety of color.
Just dug up the article on the Kouyasu-ken (read the kanji wrong :P).
There's no proper historical record, but according to legend, the Matagi in Yamagata had white dogs that were descended from 2 dogs (a tri-color and 4-colored?) that were brought to a village from 'Kai no kuni' (Kai country=Yamanashi prefecture) to rid it of monsters. In Japanese legends, some wild animals like racoon dogs (Tanuki) are believed to have the power to transform into humans. The village was being troubled by these animals morphing into 'yakunin' (a regional official that would travel around inspecting villages) that would demand the village sacrifice children to it. A blind monk who had lost his way (I wonder why lol) came to the village, and the villagers asked for his advice. He told them to go to the Kai country and bring back 2 dogs, which they did. They released the dogs on the 'yakunin' that were waiting for the sacrifice and there was a great battle. When it was over only the dogs were left alive and there were piles of dead Tanuki and Badgers. The Kouyasu-ken was believed to be a descendant of these two dogs.
The Kouyasu-ken is extinct now, so there's no way of knowing whether they were actually from Kai bloodlines. I just had a chat with a breeder I know, and he was saying that the white/cream Kai is some form of genetic mutation which doesn't happen very often, and that's why they don't allow them to be registered. I'm no expert in canine genetics, but in the back of my mind I was wondering, 'Didn't most all dog coat colors start from these color mutations?'
I'm assuming someone here on the forums can answer that for me
Here's a couple pics from some pups at a friend of mine's.
Thanks for the article Shigeru! I'd heard of Raccoon Dogs transforming into humans in Japanese legends [ as well as other animals; fox & the like ] but it was cool to see how the Nihon Ken are interpreted into the tale
I love the pup's head-shape Shigeru! [ & their brindling! ] Gorgeous little guys Thanks for spammage It feeds me lol~
Osy, I really like that dog too. I'm trying to see if I can make it down there to see all his dogs sometime.
But yeah, totally different from the colors you are used to seeing in Shikoku's.
These pics are of some Kai that are owned by the moderator of a Kai forum on Mixi that I frequent. She's got 6 at the moment I think, and some Great Danes!
OMG Shigeru! The one on the right in the first picture...he WILL be mine [ he looks like the pup you posted & also reminds me of the male kai in the first picture of this thread ]
It must be nice to get to be around Kai & other nihon ken even if you don't have your pup yet, I'm envious
I was told that cream Shibas were undesirable for breeding purposes (not only from inability to evaluate urajiro) but because the creams were thought to have developed in part as a result of interbreeding with the white Kishu/European dogs. So, cream Shibas that keep turning up in related litters are considered indicators of prior mixed breeding/poor breeding. However, there are wonderful breeders with extremely well researched lines, carefully planned breedings and so on who occasionally (or rarely) have a cream puppy. I thought this was more the result of a seperate process from a spontaneous expression of a dormant coat color gene. I guess my analogy would be you are walking in the forest and you see a pack of timber wolves with varying shades of grey (like the red and red sesame shiba). You notice one or two is black (like a black and tan shiba), but that there are also one or two white wolves (cream shibas). All the genes are present to make all the colors but they tend toward the average (red for the shiba), except if you introduce a foreign animal with a different set of genes that are dominant for different colors. That's how I understand the coloring anyways regarding the creams.
That's a good point actually. I heard that about the Shikoku, that some white Hokkaido's were added years ago. Guess it sorta makes sense that they're trying to 'breed it out'.
The analogy about the wolves in the forest was sorta what I thought about dog coloration. Guess I'll do some research and learn something new
I found some interesting old pictures of Shikoku's from around 50 years ago. They're all black and white so it's hard to see coloration, but it's interesting to see some of the different types, and the pintos!
Sorry for my lack of knowledge -- what is urajiro in the context of the Akita, the Shikoku, or the Kai? That is, I found the meaining in the context of the Shiba, but it apparently applies to other breeds, as well?
Awesome pictures Shigeru! I think the first one looks more like our "modern day" shikoku.
I'd also like to know that as well Bev! We know about the Shiba urajiro...but what about the other 5 nihon ken? Kai rarely ever have Urajiro, Most Kishu are white, Hokkaido seem to come in an array of colours, just like the akita, & the Shikoku seem to have a varying array of Urajiro.
The Kai and Kishu standard do not include urajiro as far as I can tell as the Kai and Kishu are meant to be solidly colored/brindled without fading or white patches (penalties). The Hokkaido/Ainu standard also omits urajiro, but Hokkaido do appear to have muted urajiro in some reds/sesame. Shibas, akitas and shikoku should have clearly defined urajiro. Urajiro is in the standard for the JA (FCI), but not the American akita because they are mostly white or pinto. Although urajiro in shikoku does not appear to be directly written into the standard, we all see them with it. I wouldn't expect the meaning of the term "urajiro" to change in context to each breed as it mearly describes the particular pattern of white markings seen in the Nihon Ken as a group.
Wow, Shigeru! Those are some impressive image finds! Agreed, the Kai's from the other forum are marvelous looking!
regardless of urajiro standards right now in the shiba, I think in a few short years when the shiba really (sadly) takes off as a popular breed, creams will probably find their way into the ring. And I can't blame those for wanting to, they are a stunning color of dog. I think thats why I can't get into the politics of showing and all of that, the 'inferior colors' or 'undesirables' produced even by the best of breeders. I guess I'll never get my head around the reasons for color standards (structure and temperament standards I whole heartedly agree with) and thus reaffirms that I have no business showing or breeding!
I doubt if creams make their way in to the ring soon as the evaluation of urajiro is important in appreciating the character and breeding of the dog as a whole, although they are fine animals. If and when we start seeing creams in the ring, it will probably be the start of the division of the shiba into an American Shiba standard and a Japanese Shiba standard (like the Akita) which may not penalize for white socks and other white markings that are seen more frequently in the US. Either way, cream or red, they're still shibas.
I think we would see white Boxers in the ring before we see cream Shibas.
As for "the best of breeders" producing cream Shibas, it seems to be a much more rare occurance. Looking at pictures of litters from a high quality Shiba breeder near me, I can't see a cream baby. I also wonder about Shikoku - we know Peggy has had a few creams, but has Katja? I'm thinking not, because someone mentioning she has only sold one pup that would be considered non-show quality.
see thats just what I don't really understand, how is the evaluation of the markings, the urajiro, a reflection of the character of the dog and its pedigree?
Well, you can say that truely correct urajiro is an indicator (although of course there are other things) of a good pedigree and that you would know what you were breeding for if you can see it in the parents/grandparents and you can't in creams. I know a lot of you have very nice creams and they are great companions. Conversely, there are likely to be puppies in pet stores with nice appearing urajiro although it is very hard to breed this correctly. As to urajiro physically contributing to the dog's temperment/character, it doesn't, BUT, the tradition of evaluating the shiba as an art involves assessing the dog as a balanced whole being (considering ryosei, kani and soboku) which includes weighing everything about the dog and seeing how the parts compliment the whole picture of a balanced, sound, well tempered shiba. A poorly marked dog presents an imbalanced picture which does not embody the spirit of the shiba, just as a timid or snarky correctly marked dog is not balanced either (of course this isn't fair to the dogs, but I believe that is how the thinking is for the most part).
Comments
The thing about Akatora is that there is more of it in certain bloodlines. A real Akatora is quite rare, and even when breeding two Aka's, most of the time you still get Kuro or Chu. They're very sought after at the moment seeing as the breeders are trying to work to preserve the Aka's. I'm not sure what the genetics behind the coloration are, I'll try and find some info on it.
I agree with Brad on the puppy thing too. It's really hard to tell what the pup is going to end up like, unless you've been breeding/showing for years. I have absolutely no clue looking at pups :P But one of the breeders I know is amazing and just goes through litters saying what size/type/coat/temperament they'll have.
Corina...have we ever denied Nihon Ken Spam
Shigeru - Weren't you planning on getting a Kai?
And just a clarification for Jen, the cream Kai are not recognized here in Japan (so far as I know anyway!)
I never intend on showing or breeding, its just a curiosity for me.
A shiba rescue person told me that it was a color created from inbreeding which I assume is a total crap understanding of breeding and color production...
Is it like the chocolate lab? That for the longest time they were against standard for no real reason than over time they are now allowed?
Personally, I like the Brindle > the Cream though they're all so pretty [ there's just something very unique in a Kai's bridling that I love . ] ~
I don't recall reading anywhere that cream Shikoku's are not standard, but I have heard that they're not 'desirable' and that cream and brindle pups are culled. There's a famous hunter/breeder down in Kochi who breeds Honkawa line Shikoku's. They're all working dogs, and he has quite a variety of color.
http://www3.ocn.ne.jp/~tngyoj/dogkao1.htm
http://www3.ocn.ne.jp/~tngyoj/dogkao2.htm
http://www3.ocn.ne.jp/~tngyoj/dogkao3.htm
But they do not look like the Shikoku I Know & love
There's no proper historical record, but according to legend, the Matagi in Yamagata had white dogs that were descended from 2 dogs (a tri-color and 4-colored?) that were brought to a village from 'Kai no kuni' (Kai country=Yamanashi prefecture) to rid it of monsters. In Japanese legends, some wild animals like racoon dogs (Tanuki) are believed to have the power to transform into humans. The village was being troubled by these animals morphing into 'yakunin' (a regional official that would travel around inspecting villages) that would demand the village sacrifice children to it. A blind monk who had lost his way (I wonder why lol) came to the village, and the villagers asked for his advice. He told them to go to the Kai country and bring back 2 dogs, which they did. They released the dogs on the 'yakunin' that were waiting for the sacrifice and there was a great battle. When it was over only the dogs were left alive and there were piles of dead Tanuki and Badgers. The Kouyasu-ken was believed to be a descendant of these two dogs.
The Kouyasu-ken is extinct now, so there's no way of knowing whether they were actually from Kai bloodlines. I just had a chat with a breeder I know, and he was saying that the white/cream Kai is some form of genetic mutation which doesn't happen very often, and that's why they don't allow them to be registered. I'm no expert in canine genetics, but in the back of my mind I was wondering, 'Didn't most all dog coat colors start from these color mutations?'
I'm assuming someone here on the forums can answer that for me
Here's a couple pics from some pups at a friend of mine's.
I love the pup's head-shape Shigeru! [ & their brindling! ] Gorgeous little guys
But yeah, totally different from the colors you are used to seeing in Shikoku's.
These pics are of some Kai that are owned by the moderator of a Kai forum on Mixi that I frequent. She's got 6 at the moment I think, and some Great Danes!
It must be nice to get to be around Kai & other nihon ken even if you don't have your pup yet, I'm envious
Wow...Kai & Great Danes? Talk about Opposites
The analogy about the wolves in the forest was sorta what I thought about dog coloration. Guess I'll do some research and learn something new
I found some interesting old pictures of Shikoku's from around 50 years ago. They're all black and white so it's hard to see coloration, but it's interesting to see some of the different types, and the pintos!
I'd also like to know that as well Bev! We know about the Shiba urajiro...but what about the other 5 nihon ken? Kai rarely ever have Urajiro, Most Kishu are white, Hokkaido seem to come in an array of colours, just like the akita, & the Shikoku seem to have a varying array of Urajiro.
Talk about confusion! ~
I like the working Shikoku pic, very interesting - tho that one looks to have some Kai blood in it.
The Kai-Ken from the Mixi Kai forum moderator are really nice looking. I mean really nice! I wish we had specimens like that here in the states.
I am so interested in helping the Kai breed, I would love to start some working Kai lines here - it's needed [for the breed].
----
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3234/2914739840_b780141a52.jpg?v=0
Agreed, the Kai's from the other forum are marvelous looking!
regardless of urajiro standards right now in the shiba, I think in a few short years when the shiba really (sadly) takes off as a popular breed, creams will probably find their way into the ring. And I can't blame those for wanting to, they are a stunning color of dog. I think thats why I can't get into the politics of showing and all of that, the 'inferior colors' or 'undesirables' produced even by the best of breeders. I guess I'll never get my head around the reasons for color standards (structure and temperament standards I whole heartedly agree with) and thus reaffirms that I have no business showing or breeding!
As for "the best of breeders" producing cream Shibas, it seems to be a much more rare occurance. Looking at pictures of litters from a high quality Shiba breeder near me, I can't see a cream baby. I also wonder about Shikoku - we know Peggy has had a few creams, but has Katja? I'm thinking not, because someone mentioning she has only sold one pup that would be considered non-show quality.