Shikoku-Ken: health of the breed
I always read with a lot of concern the tales of Ahi and her problems with her joints. Mostly I am concerned for poor Ahi, who is a beautiful dog and the problems she is having really sound like they have a negative impact on her enjoyment of life. She is extremely fortunate to have bran and Jen as owners - two humans who seem to not only have unlimited patience and enthusiasm for the quadropeds in their family, but, not to put too fine a point on it, have the time and money to get her the care she needs.
Now I am not veternarian and I am probably in the lower 50th percentile of dog knowledge among the people on this forum. When my wife and I decided we wanted to get a dog, and then decided we wanted to get a purebred dog of one of the Japanese breeds, I shared this idea with some of my friends. i had a couple of people who were in the "breeders are bad, if you get a dog from a breeder you are consigning a pound puppy to death" camp, but I had one or two people go so far as to state that ALL breeds are inherently unhealthy, they all have congenital defects due to the limited gene pool.
Well as someone who raised a purebred sheltie from a very reputable breeder who lived until 16 years of age and had no health problems whatsoever, I filed that bit of opinion where it belonged. (Of course, I also raised a sheltie who turned out to have some health problems, but that sheltie was from a not-as-reputable breeder). In general, I think the point may have some validity, when you get into dogs that have been bred to extreme standards, such as miniature and toy dogs, and IMO dogs with squashed or elongated heads, or particularly large dogs.
I prefer dogs that have more wolf-like, primeval appearances anyway, which is what attracted me to spitzes in general and nihonken in particular. I don't think the breeding of these dogs has taken their physical characteristics too far away from what a dog "should" look and be like, so I would expect a generally higher level of health.
There is some feeling that the AKC has kind of a dark side to it, and that breeding show dogs for conformance starves the gene pool and leads to a greater prevalence of genetic disorders in the breed. There is some muttering that the AKC may be doing bad things for the Shiba breed, and the movement among Akita breeders to try to breed American Akitas with Japanese Akitas "to strengthen the bloodlines" doesn't sound like the bloodlines were doing very well to begin with.
However, no AKC breeder is trying to hurt the breed, and there is a big advantage when checking out prospective breeders to being able to look up the sire and dam on that database to see if they've been checekd for genetic disorders.
We don't have that with Shikoku. Is this something a prospective Shikoku owner should worry about? The fact that the breed is rare and hasn't been tampered with by the AKC yet - what are the positives and negatives to that?
More to the point, Shikoku owners: how old is your dog, where did you get him or her from, and have there been any problems like hip dysplasia, joint problems, or anything else like that?
Now I am not veternarian and I am probably in the lower 50th percentile of dog knowledge among the people on this forum. When my wife and I decided we wanted to get a dog, and then decided we wanted to get a purebred dog of one of the Japanese breeds, I shared this idea with some of my friends. i had a couple of people who were in the "breeders are bad, if you get a dog from a breeder you are consigning a pound puppy to death" camp, but I had one or two people go so far as to state that ALL breeds are inherently unhealthy, they all have congenital defects due to the limited gene pool.
Well as someone who raised a purebred sheltie from a very reputable breeder who lived until 16 years of age and had no health problems whatsoever, I filed that bit of opinion where it belonged. (Of course, I also raised a sheltie who turned out to have some health problems, but that sheltie was from a not-as-reputable breeder). In general, I think the point may have some validity, when you get into dogs that have been bred to extreme standards, such as miniature and toy dogs, and IMO dogs with squashed or elongated heads, or particularly large dogs.
I prefer dogs that have more wolf-like, primeval appearances anyway, which is what attracted me to spitzes in general and nihonken in particular. I don't think the breeding of these dogs has taken their physical characteristics too far away from what a dog "should" look and be like, so I would expect a generally higher level of health.
There is some feeling that the AKC has kind of a dark side to it, and that breeding show dogs for conformance starves the gene pool and leads to a greater prevalence of genetic disorders in the breed. There is some muttering that the AKC may be doing bad things for the Shiba breed, and the movement among Akita breeders to try to breed American Akitas with Japanese Akitas "to strengthen the bloodlines" doesn't sound like the bloodlines were doing very well to begin with.
However, no AKC breeder is trying to hurt the breed, and there is a big advantage when checking out prospective breeders to being able to look up the sire and dam on that database to see if they've been checekd for genetic disorders.
We don't have that with Shikoku. Is this something a prospective Shikoku owner should worry about? The fact that the breed is rare and hasn't been tampered with by the AKC yet - what are the positives and negatives to that?
More to the point, Shikoku owners: how old is your dog, where did you get him or her from, and have there been any problems like hip dysplasia, joint problems, or anything else like that?
Comments
Thats not entirely true in all cases. I don't like to discuss openly about breeders on public forums... I've learned my lesson! But rest assured just because they can register with AKC does not make them respectable or reputable.
I know of a handful of breeders that are AKC eligible that are not concerned for the individual dog as much as they are confirmation. And some AKC eligibles are even trying to create new version of the established Shiba breed... So be careful when choosing a breeder! Be very picky.
As far as I understand it, both North American shikoku breeders are extensive and incredible. But as I only own shibas, I'm sure others with Shikas will shed light on the subject!
But Shibas are a bit small for me, and I really have fallen in love with the Shikoku breed's appearance and what I hear about their temperment. There's just this slight nervousness I have about having to pull my pup out of obedience because he's limping, which is what happened to my younger sheltie, and then I had to take the poor guy to the vet to get an operation.
My shikoku is from Katja at Akashima. She is 9 months old and (knocking on wood) has been the pinnacle of good health. In truth, I think Ahi's health issues are simply a result of the genetic lotto. Perfectly healthy parents, with perfectly healthy pregnancies can still produce a child with health concerns. One of the reasons I gravitated to the Japanese spitz breeds was the fact that they are a primarily healthy breed that at least at present has not been too contaminated by disreputable breeding and pet stores (this is sadly showing signs of changing with the shiba inu) .
I will refrain from sharing my opinions on the AKC because frankly I appreciate a good deal of their intentions, I would simply question the execution of some of them.
Getting a dog is a crap shoot wherever you get it. I have a perfectly healthy well adjusted shiba inu from the pound. He is purebred and fits the breed standard perfectly. We have plenty of folks with healthy AND sick breeder dogs. Plenty of people with healthy AND sick pet shop dogs. And plenty of people with healthy AND sick rescue dogs. Where I am going is this, even with all the research and precautions in the world you are still on some level taking a risk.
So it comes down to what sits with you ethically.
Your friends who are guilting you about not rescuing a pound puppy are on some levels correct. And I personally will never get another breeder dog again. I love all my dogs tremendously but having a breeder dog when I see how many great dogs get put down at my shelter,weighs to heavily on my conscience. That in no way means that breeding is bad. Especially with shikas, as they are nearly extinct. That is just a lifestyle choice on my part.
Basically if you are looking at a shikoku in the US or Canada, you have two choices for breeders and they are both excellent.
I say just do your research and then go with your gut.
I have worked with enough of the breeds recognized by AKC and otherwise on some level at this point, medically speaking, that I got to a point where I actually couldn't settle on any one particular breed because I have seen health and behavior problems in them all and I didn't want a lemon that would have chronic issues and need operations just to see normally or breathe normally or walk without crippling pain. My reasoning is that health in canines has a lot to do with genetic variety, how much the genes have been tampered with by humankind, how far removed they are from their origional ancestor, and if they are capable of performing the same tasks of their origional ancestor (form follows function). In comparing breeds, you see that in more primitive breeds, with the exception of limited gene pools, they look most like a wolf-ish ancestor, they whelp/breed without intervention, they are active hunters, and they are true in form-no embellishments or frills other than a sickle tail. I settled on the northern breeds and Nihon Ken for a reason. I believe, out of all the groups of dogs, they have the highest chance of being naturally healthy and exceptional dogs when bred responsibly. However, I have shiba, and I imagine that shikoku are healthier as none are in puppy mills and breeding is an event.
The AKC is nothing more then a registry for your dog, a means of keeping a public file on your dog. It is not the job of AKC to vaildate the breeding practices of people involved. This is the job of the individual breed clubs.
Generally speaking, although each breeder may have certain style in breeding (perferences), they all conform to a standard. While some people may want to change a breed, I believe most have good intentions in maintaining their breed. What ends up happening, is perhaps said breed has certain issues that are so common it just becomes "accepted" within the breed, because it is the "norm". Which in actuality, no matter how common it is, it is NOT acceptable at all.
There is a lot of "doggie politics" between the "AKC people" and the "working people". I'm apart of both worlds, more active in the working stuff...but still involved with both. The canine world is small. Really though, these organization and registries have nothing to do with it. It's just the crowd of people involved. So long as a breed has a strong breed club, there is nothing AKC can do to change it, only the people within the breed can. When getting involved with different breeds, you will see each having a crowd of people with a certain mentality or thinking type.
I've imported my Shikoku from Japan. He is 13 months and some odd weeks of age. So far, no health issues. Thank goodness. The Shikoku seems to be a relatively healthy breed, but of course, just like people, they are not 100%. Every now and then you are going to run into something. I plan to find out some more potential health-related issues from my Japanese breeder/breed consultant. I will see if I can get some estimates/percentages and post. Please be patience.
Jessica - thank you very much for the comment. While I agree there may be some moral high ground to rescuing rather than purchasing from a breeder, it seems silly to me to assume that pound puppies are always automatically more robust. The concept of being able to meet the dam and sire and therefore have a better read on what a dog may turn out to be seemed lost on these people. I have in the past and will continue to donate to my local animal shelter, so I hope that will help to balance my doggy karma out. :) Also - I hope your Shikoku lives to a healthy old age!
Lindsay - thanks for the validation of my thoughts on the relative health of the primitive breeds.
Corina - what strikes me about breed standards is how picky they are for what seem to be small morphological details like ears, coloring, etc. So you have very healthy dogs being born, but they have poor ear shape or their tails aren't right, so they wind up as neutered or spayed pets. I think there is an argument for that being bad for the breed. If the standards were more focused on temperment and some absolute (not breed-specific) measure of health and physical robustness I think that would be best. Anyway, just a thought, maybe you folks who are organizing the shikoku club should consider that kind of thing - a standard that is more relaxed in terms of coloring (which is already pretty diverse as near as I can tell) and stuff like that, more focused on the dog's physical health and attitude.
And as I pointed out above, knowing the dam and sire, in no way insures the health or temperament of a dog. Brads dogs Hilo and Fuji come from the same champion sire. Hilo has dental issues and collagen deficiencies which make his ears floppy, whereas Fuji has none of these issues. Ahi has the same dam as Himiko, and Brads Loa has the same sire as Himiko. Himiko is NOTHING like Ahi, and very similar to Loa. But whose to say that Himikos littermates might be more like Yana their dam?
What I was attempting to make clear, is that regardless of all the research in the world you will never know exactly what you are getting, you can only make at best an educated guess, and then not be surprised when that guess turns out to be incorrect.
- I have been vocal about Ahi's issue for EXACTLY this reason, so people are aware of it. Luxating Patella is a genetic issue, one that can only happen genetically. It is super important that Shikoku fanciers be educated and know that Ahi has had these issues.
- The majority of Ahi's litter has issues [too big for the standard, health issues, temperament problems], the only one I know of that doesn't have health issues from Ahi's litter is Rakka. Ahi's litter was a repeat, the first breeding of Ahi's sire and dam didn't produce these issues. So it is possible that the majority of the issues seen in Ahi's litter was due to complications - BUT NOT AHI'S ISSUES. I should also point out that Ahi had more than just a Luxating Patella issue as a pup, but the Patella issue is the only genetic-only one.
- As far as temperament goes, I have come to the conclusion there are 2 distinct personality types in the Shikoku breed. There are the Loa/Himiko/Ronan/Kuma personality [super loving, quiet, pet] and then the Ahi/Tenji/Aki/Rakka personality [more of a working type]. When looking for a Shikoku one should consider the temperament of the sire and dam and make sure they get a puppy that fits their lifestyle.
- If you are a Shikoku owner, and you care for the breed, you should go and do the same health checks a breeder should do so that there is more data on the health of this amazing breed. The breeders don't have to do it all.
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I think that you are right about the 2 different types of personalities. Did you glean anything interesting in your visit from Peggy, since she obviously has more Shikoku than anyone outside of Katja.
I agree that all dogs should be tested so that we can find out more about the health of the breed. I plan on getting Kuma tested. Right now he is intact, and pending his testing and how he finishes out as he matures, I may breed him. That is still very much up in the air. He has had zero health issues to date and is about 15 months old.
I think that Jessica and Brad and everyone else before my post certainly covered the topic well. :-)
I think our visit to Peggy's helped confirm some thoughts we already had concerning Shikoku. I dunno that I really learned anything new, just got some validation.
As for the pedigree program, I have been working on an app to help us all track the health and lines of the Shikoku. I need to get it done, it's at the top of my list for early next year.
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