Looks like a sesame. The National Shiba Club of America's breed description of coat colour has some great pictures of sesame and red. Many reds are not "true red" just as many sesames are not "true sesame". However, there is a lot of overlap in these two colours, as many reds do have a sprinkling of black tips on their back and tail as long as it's less than 25% of their total body (I believe). If the black tips evenly cover 50% of the body with no concentration in any area and not more (I think but I don't have my reference matierials), than the colour would be true sesame. More than 75% is black sesame. I honestly don't even know what to call the colour of one of my own dogs, Beebe, except to say crappy red/dirty red/red with sable due to the spattering of black on her body and tail...True sesame is hard to get but lots of reds will have a black hair or two somewhere. The dark points can lighten as they age also so you may see more red later. I am no expert either, just a fancier.
well I have a question - when their winter coats come in - is this their true coat? Kitsune, for instance, once his coat is blown has much less black hairs on his body, or at least they are less noticeable. But now that his winter coat is coming in strong - he has black throughout his entire back and tail - like for every red hair is a black one. His face is still red with white cheeks but he has black near his eyes and mouth now too. But compared to Hanzo's coloring, Kitsune is perceived as much redder until closer inspection.
Futhermore, I think the term 'dirty red' sounds elitist. Doesn't it? Why can't they be "sesameish" or something with a friendlier undertone? Eh. Thats why I'm not into showing I guess.
I'm surprised these terms are used for dogs, especially at the shows. Seems like a hijack, I guess ... When I was a teen (human) blonds of a particular non-descript light hair coloring were sometimes described as "dishwater" blond (I think as in "dirty"... dating myself now, would this have been before dishwashers existed in every kitchen on the planet?!?)... Now I just apply a bleach product of some sort (I like that spray-in stuff that works in the sunlight or with the blowdryer)... Seems to masquerade the "soap suds" (otherwise known as gray) that's showing up in my hair! No more dishwater blond here! I wouldn't recommend for your Shiba, though!
Malek: All jokes aside, your puppy is a beauty! Looks like he is a curious little boy, too... I love the pic of him straining to see out the window! And the shot with the full georgeous color of his head is amazing...(I've always been partial to "red-heads" I guess! LOL ) I have to admit I don't know much about Shiba's, but I have noticed many dogs, regardless of breed, change a lot from the puppy stage to the adult stage, including hair color. It would be interesting to have you post a contrast pic of him sometime down the road (perhaps after the puppy coat is gone and replaced), to see how the adult color varies compared to the puppy color. My dog is a Kai, and she looks "solid" black in most pics. However, with right lighting its possible to see that she does have a fair amount of dark brown or red brindling. After she lost her "puppy coat" the other colors showed up a lot more, and her "young adult" hair has a very different texture from the puppy "fuzz".
i think the hair on his head and back legs will eventually get more black. i can see little black hairs but its still real soft so i think its his puppy hair? Do you guys think he will shed his puppy coat this year or will he wait until the winter is over?
You're right, sesameish is nicer, show standards/terms are very critical. It is just colouring, and I don't like saying my shiba is "dirty" in any way (what a terrible thing to say about a shiba). "Incorrect red" doesn't dound much better, "red with sable" is passable but most people I know in the biz call em "dirty" and "crappy". I know the undercoat can be grey and cream in areas which, depending on thickness ratio to guard hairs, will either lighten the overall red/sesame or darken it. Shiba hairs are banded also, with red/cream/red or black tips so depending on the stage of grow in, that can also change the overall hue/appearance of concentration of black vs red hairs. Ike just blew his coat in response to comming indoors, he was red before, but he lost about 1/2 of his cream undercoat and he is blazing red now. The winter coat/full coat he had diluted him a little. Anyways, cute baby and they're all fine pets whatever the colour.
Wow, the idea that calling a Shiba "dirty red" or calling it "dirty blond" would be upsetting to someone has never crossed my mind. I always just assumed that's what it was called. Dirty doesn't have to have a negative connotation. Hell, if I'm outside playing and I get dirty, I think its cool. Its actually pretty descriptive IMO. Red hairs with some darker accents, like dirt. Guess its all a matter of perspective though.
He has similar colouring to Nola, whom we call red seasame. Whether or not this is accurate when it comes to show standards, who knows. Here is a fairly recent photo of her for comparison:
Toby is not the most perfect Red Sesame, but ... he's still Red Sesame. I guess breeders of Champion Shibas could argue and just call him ugly. But, he's unique.
It's the same for black and tans. In conformation they are really not supposed to be glossy black either (which is very pretty and showy), but look as if they have just rolled in dust or have a rusty undertone, it is good that they appear "dirty" in this regard. I love a big dirty black and tan shiba, although in America the traditional rusty B+T is not as striking as the glossy black with a white bow tie:)
Lindsay... Does it count if they really have just rolled in dust? Because both of mine love to roll in EVERYTHING!
I think that since I am not planning on ever breeding my pups, it does not matter exactly what they are called in terms of color. I regard Bella as a black and tan, and Nola as a red sesame. If someone else thinks these terms are not appropriate to describe my girls, then they can correct me, or live with it. The colour of their fur does not take away from the fact that they are awesome pups and are loved completely by myself and my husband. Shoot, they could be baby-shit-green for all I care, as long as they are still Bella and Nola.
The color thing with dog breeds has always frustrated me, because:
A) I'm really VERY colorblind The terms used to describe the colors are very ambiguous.
I had an email conversation about this with Donald [Miisan kennel] regarding Akita and the "silver brindle" vs "blue brindle" thing. I think he did a good job of pointing out the inconsistencies:
Dog color is weird anyway. What is "buff" in one breed can be "cream" in another "wheaten", "golden" and even "YELLOW" (Labs).
It's really very confusing and when it comes to a judge, in a dog show, in the US, it's gonna have everything to do with THAT judge's opinion and nothing else.
Look at the TM that had the big win last year, that color TM is not even acceptable in the breed's standard yet he was able to win the biggest title for a TM in the US yet. This is why I hate the show world. That is the equivalent of a cream or pinto Shiba winning a show... If that type of thing can happen what is the point of applying a name to a coloring and creating a standard around it?
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Jen - When it comes to applying a name to a color and then segregating a breed's population over that name, well... I think it's all kinda elitist.
Comments
Also not an expert opinion:).
Jesse
But compared to Hanzo's coloring, Kitsune is perceived as much redder until closer inspection.
Futhermore, I think the term 'dirty red' sounds elitist. Doesn't it? Why can't they be "sesameish" or something with a friendlier undertone? Eh. Thats why I'm not into showing I guess.
Malek: All jokes aside, your puppy is a beauty! Looks like he is a curious little boy, too... I love the pic of him straining to see out the window! And the shot with the full georgeous color of his head is amazing...(I've always been partial to "red-heads" I guess! LOL ) I have to admit I don't know much about Shiba's, but I have noticed many dogs, regardless of breed, change a lot from the puppy stage to the adult stage, including hair color. It would be interesting to have you post a contrast pic of him sometime down the road (perhaps after the puppy coat is gone and replaced), to see how the adult color varies compared to the puppy color. My dog is a Kai, and she looks "solid" black in most pics. However, with right lighting its possible to see that she does have a fair amount of dark brown or red brindling. After she lost her "puppy coat" the other colors showed up a lot more, and her "young adult" hair has a very different texture from the puppy "fuzz".
Toby is not the most perfect Red Sesame, but ... he's still Red Sesame. I guess breeders of Champion Shibas could argue and just call him ugly. But, he's unique.
I think that since I am not planning on ever breeding my pups, it does not matter exactly what they are called in terms of color. I regard Bella as a black and tan, and Nola as a red sesame. If someone else thinks these terms are not appropriate to describe my girls, then they can correct me, or live with it. The colour of their fur does not take away from the fact that they are awesome pups and are loved completely by myself and my husband. Shoot, they could be baby-shit-green for all I care, as long as they are still Bella and Nola.
A) I'm really VERY colorblind
I had an email conversation about this with Donald [Miisan kennel] regarding Akita and the "silver brindle" vs "blue brindle" thing. I think he did a good job of pointing out the inconsistencies:
Dog color is weird anyway. What is "buff" in one breed can be "cream" in another "wheaten", "golden" and even "YELLOW" (Labs).
It's really very confusing and when it comes to a judge, in a dog show, in the US, it's gonna have everything to do with THAT judge's opinion and nothing else.
Look at the TM that had the big win last year, that color TM is not even acceptable in the breed's standard yet he was able to win the biggest title for a TM in the US yet. This is why I hate the show world. That is the equivalent of a cream or pinto Shiba winning a show... If that type of thing can happen what is the point of applying a name to a coloring and creating a standard around it?
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Jen - When it comes to applying a name to a color and then segregating a breed's population over that name, well... I think it's all kinda elitist.
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